Athenian200's Timeline

[athenian200]

Okay, this is my first attempt at a timeline... it's mostly based on the impression I get from the games, there's not a whole lot of rigorous reasoning behind it.

First of all, I'll just make the disclaimer that a lot of the games in the series don't really seem to fit anywhere in particular. I do give a bit of credibility to Nintendo's comment that the games were never intended to have consistent timelines, because that does show in places.

But anyway, here it goes:

TMC/FSA-OOT/MM-OOX-TP-ALTTP/LA-TWW/PH/ST-LOZ/AOL

1. Minish Cap/Four Swords Adventure

I think it's pretty much agreed that Minish Cap is a prequel to Four Swords Adventures, and it seems to make sense from the way the game's story is told. I think there's an untold story that occurred before Minish Cap, about the first Hero that wielded the Picori Blade (in-game, you wield the reforged version, the White Sword or Four Sword). Anyway, the reason I think these games come first, is because the Master Sword doesn't exist in its current form yet, and Vaati appears to be an older evil than Ganondorf (in fact Ganondorf finds his trident for the first time in FSA).

2. Ocarina of Time

The Temple of Time is close to the castle, and looks rather similar to the place where the Four Sword is left at the end of FSA. It seems like enough time might have passed for the sword to pass into legend and finally be named the Master Sword (it went from Picori Blade, to White Sword, to Four Sword between MC and FSA, thus clearly hadn't cemented itself yet). It's possible that Ganondorf creates another avatar of himself ala Agahnim (since he's long forgotten), and uses it to trick Link (via Zelda) into opening the door to the Sacred Realm and unleashing his former power.

3. Majora's Mask/Oracle of Ages/Oracle of Seasons

It seems clear that Majora's Mask comes after OOT. And it seems to me that the Link in OOX is clearly the Link from OOT/MM. He is shown riding Epona in the beginning sequence, and the Zelda/Link/Impa remind me most of their OOT counterparts.

4. Twilight Princess

It seems that Twilight Princess deals with a still-intact Hyrule that's obviously post OOT, so it must happen before Wind Waker.

5. A Link to the Past/Link's Awakening

This... is just a guess, but it seems like the "Dark World" might very well be the Twilight Realm. Perhaps after Ganon "died," his spirit returned there, and he managed to break the seal over time despite it being thought impossible at the time of TP. This time, he used the alternate persona of Aghanim in his weaker avatar, having learned from his past mistakes. The Moon Pearl might be a Sol, the Master Sword is still off in the forest rather than the ToT, Link turns into an animal in the Dark World, etc.

6. The Wind Waker/Phantom Hourglass/Spirit Tracks

I'm not so sure about this, but it does seem to fit in here. It would explain why LoZ/AoL don't seem to fit with the rest of the timeline so clearly (though I know the real reason is that the games didn't have a well-developed story at that point).

7. Legend of Zelda/Adventure of Link

My understanding is that after a new Kingdom of Hyrule is created in Spirit Tracks, these two games could explain why Hyrule is so barren after Ganon manages to come back yet again, why there are no hints and everything is trial and error... because they've forgotten all about the Master Sword, and no one knows what the heck to do about any of this. It's clear that Ganon has such a strong spirit that he can be revived even if completely destroyed, as implied in OOX and AOL.

Well, that's my theory... I know, everyone has one, and I do have an open mind about alternative theories.

My main reason for not bothering with a split timeline is because... well, it just seems a little too complicated that way to me. It's plausible, I just have trouble thinking like that.

 

[Pinecove]

My main reason for not bothering with a split timeline is because... well, it just seems a little too complicated that way to me. It's plausible, I just have trouble thinking like that.

The split timeline has been confirmed by Aonuma numerous times.
For future reference, please base your timeline around this:

/TWW/PH-ST
OoT
\MM-TP

 

[ironknuckle1]

and it would help if you would just write out how your timeline looks so that people get the jist of it before they start reading the evidence

 

[athenian200]

The split timeline has been confirmed by Aonuma numerous times.
For future reference, please base your timeline around this:

/TWW/PH-ST
OoT
\MM-TP

Well, if you insist on the split timeline, then...

A...................../TWW/PH-ST-LoZ/AoL
TMC-FSA-OOT
C....................\MM-OOX-TP-ALttP/LA

That's how I THINK it goes, anyway... I haven't watched Back to the Future in a while, so I'm a little rusty on this 4-D stuff.

and it would help if you would just write out how your timeline looks so that people get the jist of it before they start reading the evidence

Hmm... I'll do that. Don't know why I didn't think of that.

 

[Pinecove]

/TWW/PH-ST-LoZ/AoL
TMC-FSA-OOT
\MM-OOX-TP-ALttP/LA

Explain the Geographical similarities from LoZ to FSA and TMC.
Explain how FSA is before OoT when OoT Ganon is clearly a different Ganon from FSA.
How is OoX before TP when Ganon isn't even dead yet?
Where is FS?

 

[ironknuckle1]

First thing is FSA cant come before OOT because the main villian Ganon doesnt exist until OOT when ganondorf uses the TOC to turn himself into Ganon. Thus any games before OOT cant include Ganon.

Edit: is that clearer

 

[Pinecove]

^?

I agree with you, but your post makes no sense whatsoever.

 

[Locke]

Overlooking the fact that your timeline isn't split...

1. Minish Cap/Four Swords Adventure

Fair enough. Though I disagree.

2. Ocarina of Time

The Temple of Time is close to the castle, and looks rather similar to the place where the Four Sword is left at the end of FSA. It seems like enough time might have passed for the sword to pass into legend and finally be named the Master Sword (it went from Picori Blade, to White Sword, to Four Sword between MC and FSA, thus clearly hadn't cemented itself yet).

Placement's good, but the Master Sword is definately NOT the Picori Blade/Four Sword. The Picori Blade was given to the Hero of Men to defend against the monsters. The Master Sword was forged by the Sages by request of the goddesses as a weapon against anyone who would misuse the Triforce. Two completely different backstories.

3. Majora's Mask/Oracle of Ages/Oracle of Seasons

...it seems to me that the Link in OOX is clearly the Link from OOT/MM. He is shown riding Epona in the beginning sequence, and the Zelda/Link/Impa remind me most of their OOT counterparts.

What does Epona have to do with anything? Impa is a minor character and is repeated several times. Link reminds me of any other Link. Does that mean they're all the same? Evidence please.

4. Twilight Princess

It seems that Twilight Princess deals with a still-intact Hyrule that's obviously post OOT, so it must happen before Wind Waker.

Again, ignoring the absence of a split, I don't have a problem with this.

5. A Link to the Past/Link's Awakening

This... is just a guess, but it seems like the "Dark World" might very well be the Twilight Realm. Perhaps after Ganon "died," his spirit returned there, and he managed to break the seal over time despite it being thought impossible at the time of TP. This time, he used the alternate persona of Aghanim in his weaker avatar, having learned from his past mistakes. The Moon Pearl might be a Sol, the Master Sword is still off in the forest rather than the ToT, Link turns into an animal in the Dark World, etc.

DW =/= TR. I'm not the best person to be telling you that though...

6. The Wind Waker/Phantom Hourglass/Spirit Tracks

...and here's where I can no longer avoid mentioning your ignorance of the timeline split. The Wind Waker's backstory specifically describes the events of Ocarina of Time, and how Ganon escaped and was sealed when no hero arrived. No games can take place between OoT and WW. WW is confirmed to go on the adult timeline, parallel to TP.

7. Legend of Zelda/Adventure of Link

okay

My main reason for not bothering with a split timeline is because... well, it just seems a little too complicated that way to me. It's plausible, I just have trouble thinking like that.

Just because something is complicated doesn't mean you can ignore it. If you truely enjoy the Zelda story, you'll do some research and try to learn more about the things you don't understand.



I'm actually quite surprised at what you were able to come up with while ignoring the split and in-game evidence. I look forward to seeing your new timeline after you add the split.



EDIT: okay...I missed a lot while typing that. This forum has been so fast the past few days...
Yeah, like Pinecove pointed out, the main concerns now are with FSA and OoX. Ganon doesn't exist before OoT, and he isn't dead on the CT until TP.

 

[athenian200]

Explain the Geographical similarities from LoZ to FSA and TMC.

I didn't even notice any geographical similarities between them. If that kind of thing is meaningful to the timeline, then I have no clue what order to put them in. I always assumed they didn't make any effort to make the maps consistent between Zelda games, just keeping the landmarks around.

Explain how FSA is before OoT when OoT Ganon is clearly a different Ganon from FSA.

Well... I guess that's just it. It isn't clear to me that he's a different Ganon. If I believed he were, I wouldn't have put FSA before OOT. It seems that Ganon is basically shown taking the trident and becoming a villain for the first time in FSA. I basically think that Ganon had waited all that time after being defeated in FSA, and eventually gathered enough power to possess an avatar that was similar to Agahnim. He created Phantom Ganon, so why not? It seems like he's a little too experienced at being a villain, with all those traps and such, in OOT, where as he seems a little more disorganized and haphazard in FSA, just spreading evil randomly in ways that don't necessarily benefit him directly.

How is OoX before TP when Ganon isn't even dead yet?

Ganon's BODY was already destroyed in OOT, and that's about as dead as he can ever be. The attempt to bring Ganon back quickly by Twinrova (Twinrova even being alive at this point, which she wasn't in TP or anything afterwards, also suggests to me that this was before TP) basically failed, but Ganon slowly gathered enough power to convince a Twili to help him get back to the world of light. The point is that Ganon can always resurrect his body eventually by gathering enough power to influence the other side, his servants can just speed up the process.

Where is FS?

I can't play FS because it requires more than one player, so I have no idea. I just assumed it was the same as FSA...

 

[Pinecove]

I didn't even notice any geographical similarities between them. If that kind of thing is meaningful to the timeline, then I have no clue what order to put them in. I always assumed they didn't make any effort to make the maps consistent between Zelda games, just keeping the landmarks around.

Hebra's hill in FSA and the Lost hills in LoZ.
The Coast in both LoZ and FSA.
The graveyard accessed through the lost woods in both TMC and LoZ.

Doesn't necessarily mean close proximity, but it definately means the same Hyrule.

Well... I guess that's just it. It isn't clear to me that he's a different Ganon. If I believed he were, I wouldn't have put FSA before OOT. It seems that Ganon is basically shown taking the trident and becoming a villain for the first time in FSA. I basically think that Ganon had waited all that time after being defeated in FSA, and eventually gathered enough power to possess an avatar that was similar to Agahnim. He created Phantom Ganon, so why not? It seems like he's a little too experienced at being a villain, with all those traps and such, in OOT, where as he seems a little more disorganized and haphazard in FSA, just spreading evil randomly in ways that don't necessarily benefit him directly.

In FSA the gerudo hate Ganon and have banned him from their home.
In OoT the Gerudo love Ganon and worship him as their leader.

They're not the same.

Also if that's the case where does AlttP Ganon come from?

Ganon's BODY was already destroyed in OOT, and that's about as dead as he can ever be. The attempt to bring Ganon back quickly by Twinrova (Twinrova even being alive at this point, which she wasn't in TP or anything afterwards, also suggests to me that this was before TP) basically failed, but Ganon slowly gathered enough power to convince a Twili to help him get back to the world of light. The point is that Ganon can always resurrect his body eventually by gathering enough power to influence the other side, his servants can just speed up the process.

Ganon's body (or Ganon himself) is never destroyed on the Child timeline.

I can't play FS because it requires more than one player, so I have no idea. I just assumed it was the same as FSA...

FS comes before FSA.

 

[athenian200]

Hebra's hill in FSA and the Lost hills in LoZ.
The Coast in both LoZ and FSA.
The graveyard accessed through the lost woods in both TMC and LoZ.

Doesn't necessarily mean close proximity, but it definately means the same Hyrule.

Hmm... I'll have to think about that one. I can see your logic there.

In FSA the gerudo hate Ganon and have banned him from their home.
In OoT the Gerudo love Ganon and worship him as their leader.

They're not the same.

The FSA Gerudo were more virtuous and hated Ganon, and the OOT Gerudo were more decadent and admired him (perhaps because of magical influence, perhaps just a cultural shift). There was enough time for the basic disposition of the Gerudo to change either way.

Also if that's the case where does AlttP Ganon come from?

Well, I think that he comes from the Twilight Realm (changed into the Dark World) again. But a lot of people will insist that the Dark World isn't the Twilight Realm, so that would be a hole in my theory. I just don't see how they could be different, the mechanics and ideas behind them are too similar. Just because the MoT was the only KNOWN portal at the end of TP doesn't mean that no other link could ever have been created between the worlds via magic eventually.

Ganon's body (or Ganon himself) is never destroyed on the Child timeline.

Okay, I give up. I still think OOX should go there due to several other cues, such as the similarities of Impa and Twinrova, and Link riding Epona in the Intro... but it technically can't because of that.

If I analyze things that closely, I end up concluding that there's no coherent timeline, and that several of the games just have arbitrary stories.

Pretty much, I'd honestly say every game made before OOT, and including OOX, has no coherent timeline or connection to the rest of the series. I'd also say that TMC-FS-FSA don't seem to take place in the main Zelda universe at all. That pretty much leaves this:

A....../TWW/PH-ST
OOT
C....\MM-TP

?? Alttp/LA

?? OOX

?? LoZ/AoL

?? TMC-FS-FSA

That's what I end up deciding if I analyze all the details carefully... that only the later games (and only some of them) were designed with any kind of continuity in mind.

All I can say is, if you want to make a timeline that includes all the games... you have to be willing to overlook some logical inconsistencies. Otherwise, they simply don't fit together. I originally said that I was just saying where they "seemed" to belong, and now I'm already sorry I mentioned my opinion.

FS comes before FSA.

Okay, then I'm guessing it comes between TMC and FSA... very carefully, because I know nothing about it.

 

[ironknuckle1]

ok the TR =/= DW. They are two completely different places.
TR
the TR was created when the Dark interlopers tried to gain the triforce by using the fused shadows. They were caught and sent to the Arbiters grounds where they were sent into the Twilight Realm. In the realm from Midna's description the dark interlopers without light turned into the twili

DW
The dark world was created in the back story of ALTTP. Ganon was locked away inthe Sacred Realmuntil he found and made a wish on the triforce. Through this wish he turned the sacred realm into the DW to use to get ready and take over Hyrule. The Dark world from ALTTP is also the same one as in FSA.

These are to different places. They seem to be similar but they are completely different

 

[athenian200]

ok the TR =/= DW. They are two completely different places.
TR
the TR was created when the Dark interlopers tried to gain the triforce by using the fused shadows. They were caught and sent to the Arbiters grounds where they were sent into the Twilight Realm. In the realm from Midna's description the dark interlopers without light turned into the twili

DW
The dark world was created in the back story of ALTTP. Ganon was locked away inthe Sacred Realmuntil he found and made a wish on the triforce. Through this wish he turned the sacred realm into the DW to use to get ready and take over Hyrule. The Dark world from ALTTP is also the same one as in FSA.

These are to different places. They seem to be similar but they are completely different

Well, all that proves is that the stories behind them are different. For all we know, information about the realm's origins was lost or distorted between the games. Aside from differences in the backstory, they seem VERY similar. Shape changes, it's creation is somehow related to the Sacred Realm and the Triforce, a mirror has something to do with getting in/out, there are portals related to it that can be used to warp around, it exists parallel to Hyrule... need I go on?

But if they are really different, then that's a hole. I can agree with that. It's just that I constructed my timeline inclusively rather than exclusively.

Besides... in-game, it's the only explanation that makes sense concerning the similarities. The only OTHER explanation is that the developers of TP were influenced by ALttP, and that pretty quickly degenerates into deciding that there is no real timeline.

 

[Ninten*]

Exempt came up with a theory that FSA comes before OoT. This theory has been proven wrong. The Master Sword has been created by blacksmiths because the Golden Goddesess told them to create a blade that could repel evil and defeat the Triforce. The life force in Zelda could refer to the Triforce of Wisdom. But then that would mean the Triforce was in the game before MC. This is probably OoT but I disagree about MC-FSA before OoT. Another thing is that in the backstory, the villan is obvoisly Gannon/dorf. It's probably OoT and Ganon was in the Sacred Realm during MC-FSA. The Picori Blade could be refering to the Magic Sword which was in one of the Zelda Games. One last thing is that if Link and Tetra found a new Hyrule, why would they leave it? If Ganondorf died in WW, how can he come back in LoZ?

That's pretty much it.

 

[athenian200]

Thanks for the information, Ninten*.

But I just can't really see how FSA could come after OoT. I really don't like it in post-OoT's universe, because it seems a little too clear to me that this game shows Ganon getting his start (it's implied that he's known as an ordinary Gerudo before trying to enter the Spirit Temple), getting his trident for the first time, and getting sealed away for the first time.

My main concern is that I'm extremely uncomfortable with putting Minish Cap and company in the post-OoT universe because it has no Master Sword, no Ganon, and no Triforce. That would seem to give it a very early placement, and it seems very clear that FS-FSA have to come fairly soon after MC due to the way their stories are told, and that Vaati never appears again outside of this little continuity.

Anyway, I've started researching it a bit more seriously. I've decided to change some of my original placements (mainly OoX and LoZ/AoL).

Current Timeline:

A...................../TWW/PH-ST
TMC-FS-FSA-OOT
C....................\MM-TP-ALttP/LA-LoZ/AoL-OoX



I moved OoX to the end of the timeline because of the inconsistencies... I'm just going to assume that he's actually a new Link that enters the scene sometime after AoL, and that's why he has to be introduced to Zelda. Also, Ganon's fairly dead after LoZ/AoL, so it NOW makes sense to revive him. I don't think he died in TP, because his Triforce glowed, and he was walking around with the sword in his gut. Unless they took his Triforce of Power, I don't see how he could have truly died.

I'm having a very hard time placing LoZ and AoL. If I didn't know better, I'd say they don't fit on the timeline well at all. I know that it can't take place on the Adult timeline since Ganondorf doesn't exist on that line after the first game on it, and indeed hasn't reappeared in any game since on that line. I can't put it before TP because it doesn't make sense for Ganon to be revived yet. I can't put it after OoX, because then LoZ makes no sense (since Ganon doesn't have to be revived in that game).

The main problem I'm having now is that... well, no matter where I put LoZ/AoL or ALttP, it seems like I run into the problem of Ganon being in a game he's killed in without explanation, before he's revived. I suppose it's easier to imagine that he recovered from his ALttP death than his LoZ one (since ALttP was supposed to be a prequel to those games originally anyway), but still... hmm. Also, I guess ALttP after TP looks nicer than the alternative, since they both have the Master Sword in the Forest.