An argument as to why I believe OoT and TotK Ganondorf to be one in the same.

[Moblinking5000]

Plenty of people say that TotK Ganondorf doesn't know about the Triforce, but him not mentioning it isn't necessarily proof that he does or doesn't know about it. He may not know about it, or might but not know its current whereabouts, making him settle for the Secret Stones in the era of Rauru's (re)founding. Howecer, saying that a character doesn't kknow about something because they don't mention it is fallacious reasoning.

In the JP version, (found here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1eu42Oj7XRJSwkFugowhsJReW6UzY2MyfYHnAJwAtOcs/edit) Ganon recognizes the MS as soon as he awakes from his seal. Sure, Rauru told him about it, but not what it looks like, so if they're not meant to be the same, then is quite peculiar that he would recognize it.

Also, in the JP version, Sidon says that Ganondorf has resurrected AGAIN after defeating Phantom Ganon, meaning that he has been sealed and/or destroyed and revived before. This is made clear in CaC, where it says that he continued to be revived until he became malice itself. Also, Sidon of all people should be a good source of information due to the Zora's history retention skills(see the monuments about Ruto).

Interestingly, Ganon is ''coded'' as an OoT-era Gerudo. He's literally the only Gerudo to have round ears in the refounding era, which also applies to not only to him in OoT, but the other Gerudo of that time, whereas the other BotW/TotK Gerudo do not. CaC(and maybe BotW, I'm not sure) even makes a point of saying that the Gerudo from long ago had round ears and that modern ones don't due to losing their connection with the gods, so this had to have been intentional.

Also, CaC and BotW both make it clear that the Ganon that became Calamity is the result of OoT's Ganon descent into malice after multiple revivals and defeats, with BotW saying that CG used to be known as the ''Great Demon King''(JP) and the ''Great King of Evil''(EN):

https://blogger.googleusercontent.c...VELNdg/s4096/GridArt_20230714_214558842~3.jpg

These titles are given to OoT Ganondorf, but not FSA Ganondorf, who is the only Ganon confirmed to be different. And since Impa says that TotK Ganon is the one that became CG, this means that both BotW/TotK Ganon and OoT Ganon should be considered the same, alongside the fact that Aonuma confirmed that BotW takes place in a world with many battles with Ganon, and that we should be able to figure out the timeline based on that. How can we do that in a world that has seen many battles with a Ganon we don't know? He was referring to BotW Ganon when saying this, and since we know that TotK Ganon is the same person as CG as per Impa, we know that in order for this to be true, it must be the Ganon that we are all familiar with.

 

[Bowsette Plus-Ultra]

I guess I sort of see it as self-evident. I'm not a fan of Ganondorf just being a hat you can pass from one nameless villain to another and expect it to hold any sort of weight. If it isn't the same Ganon then it takes away from the weight of a perpetually regenerating ball of hate.

 

[Spiritual Mask Salesman]

I'm really not sure how to look at TotK Ganondorf. On the one hand, it might make sense for someone who had the full Triforce and still failed to succeed with it to try and obtain a different type of power. On the other, it might be better to seek out the Triforce instead and use it to make a different wish, because I'd still say objectively the Triforce is more useful than a Secret Stone.

However, the main point to rectify if we are to believe OoT and TotK Ganondorf are one and the same is how OoT Ganondorf, who supposedly lost his human form on the Downfall timeline managed to regain it.

 

[Bowsette Plus-Ultra]

I'm really not sure how to look at TotK Ganondorf. On the one hand, it might make sense for someone who had the full Triforce and still failed to succeed with it to try and obtain a different type of power. On the other, it might be better to seek out the Triforce instead and use it to make a different wish, because I'd still say objectively the Triforce is more useful than a Secret Stone.

However, the main point to rectify if we are to believe OoT and TotK Ganondorf are one and the same is how OoT Ganondorf, who supposedly lost his human form on the Downfall timeline managed to regain it.

He got better.

 

[Spiritual Mask Salesman]

He got better.

Sounds about right

 

[Moblinking5000]

I'm really not sure how to look at TotK Ganondorf. On the one hand, it might make sense for someone who had the full Triforce and still failed to succeed with it to try and obtain a different type of power. On the other, it might be better to seek out the Triforce instead and use it to make a different wish, because I'd still say objectively the Triforce is more useful than a Secret Stone.

I think it's probable that he doesn't know the current whereabouts of the Triforce during the Refounding Era, and no one else seems to, either, so he's making use of the SS as a ''good enough for the time being'' source of power for the moment.

However, the main point to rectify if we are to believe OoT and TotK Ganondorf are one and the same is how OoT Ganondorf, who supposedly lost his human form on the Downfall timeline managed to regain it.

To be fair, there's nothing saying that Ganon actually did permanently lose his human form on the DT; that's just an assumption that people, myself included, made back in the day, sure, but we've seen him switch back and forth before; he turns into his pig/boar form at the end of OoT, but he transforms back into his humanoid shape when he's sealed after his defeat. Same in TP. Since the Ganon from OoT and TP is the same man who spends most of his time as a pig on the DT, it makes more sense to assume that the rules for him remains consistent, with him perhaps having a preference for his beast shape during those eras, just as how he never turns into a beast in TWW's era, despite having the ability to do so via the ToP, as seen in the adult ending of OoT.

IMO, a bigger question is how did he regain his sanity? Well, I think that TotK gives us a possible answer to that; there's incarnations of Koume and Kotake in TotK. They have always had the role of serving Ganon in the two other games we've seen them in, and Oracles Twinrova revived him, albeit as a mindless beast, but that's because that revival went wrong. Are we supposed to assume, however, that EVERY revival of Ganon went wrong in the DT? Of course, since it's been said that there's alot up to interpetation in interviews about TotK lore, it's not definitive proof, but there are enough breadcrumbs to think about and consider.

 

[Ryuu Kage Desu]

To be fair, there's nothing saying that Ganon actually did permanently lose his human form on the DT; that's just an assumption that people, myself included, made back in the day, sure, but we've seen him switch back and forth before; he turns into his pig/boar form at the end of OoT, but he transforms back into his humanoid shape when he's sealed after his defeat. Same in TP. Since the Ganon from OoT and TP is the same man who spends most of his time as a pig on the DT, it makes more sense to assume that the rules for him remains consistent, with him perhaps having a preference for his beast shape during those eras, just as how he never turns into a beast in TWW's era, despite having the ability to do so via the ToP, as seen in the adult ending of OoT.

This is a very good point. I feel like I should have caught this detail sooner.

Interestingly, Ganon is ''coded'' as an OoT-era Gerudo. He's literally the only Gerudo to have round ears in the refounding era, which also applies to not only to him in OoT, but the other Gerudo of that time, whereas the other BotW/TotK Gerudo do not. CaC(and maybe BotW, I'm not sure) even makes a point of saying that the Gerudo from long ago had round ears and that modern ones don't due to losing their connection with the gods, so this had to have been intentional.

I personally think the ears are due to genetics. Basically, as the Gerudo choose mates from Hylians, the ears become pointed, though choosing other humans (such as the round eared humans we see in Twilight Princess), the ears become less pointed. Which is to say, I see it as TotK Ganondorf is a "pure" Gerudo, while the others we see in the memories have Hylian genetics. It would also mean that the Gerudo we see in OoT are similarly devoid of Hylian genetics. If so, the statement about the ears being a sign of being closer to the gods is how the Hylian people understand the situation.

 

[Chris the Overlord]

My first impression is to be careful about placing BotW and TotK in a specific point in the main timeline. That aside he does not have the same body as from OoT. We see the Gerudo serving Ganon in Rauru's time as a regular Gerudo. He does not yet have the power that usually belongs to Ganon. This puts very little room to doubt he could have survived this long from OoT. These event also have many differences from OoT such as the stones, Moldugas, and the presence of an adult Zelda are just a few of these differences. Also, while the Gerudo during Link's time have pointed ears, at least some of the Gerudo from Rauru's time do not. The image below shows rounded ears of the Gerudo fighting alongside Rauru.

While the body can't be the same, the next question is the spirit being the same. To some extent, Ganon has always been the hatred of Demise reincarnated. If this were not the case, BotW and TotK would be a seperate timeline/reality and would eliminate the posibility of Ganon being from OoT. To this extent, yes it is the same spirit, but it is unlikely that they have the same memories. In the Fallen Hero and Child timelines, There has been at least one fight with a different reincarnation of Ganon who has no memory of OoT. Fallen Hero Timeline has the Oracle combined ending, aLBW, and tLoZ where Ganon is revived. Child Timeline only has FSA, but still proves the point. Calamity Ganon and Ganondorf have existed at the same time, proving this posibility. If BotW where at the end of one of these timelines, however, it would be a stretch for Ganon to ignore these incarnations to be reincarnated in what may be thousands of years later.

If this Ganon has the same memories as from OoT and has taken the form of this next Gerudo it would likely be in the Adult Timeline. Hyrule has been all but abandoned and the inhabitants moved to New Hyrule. In this case, it is a posibility. The big contradiction here is that this is the WW Ganon. The WW Ganon has been humbled twice. WW Ganon has always been cautious creating plots to remove the power of the master sword by killing two sages, try to kidnap Zelda to quickly and efficiently get the Triforce of Wisdom, and is the only one who recognizes Link's true potential. The Ganon in TotK is determined, confident, and bold. He believes himself to outmatch everyone including Link. Both laughing off the Master Sword and sending Link to square one without a care in the world shows the stark differences between WW Ganon and TotK Ganon.

TotK Ganondorf, while powerful, seems to have no memories of OoT. While he may be clever at plotting against Hyrule, it pales in comparison to the manipulative and cunning nature of OoT Ganondorf. This lack of planning and knowledge may be the largest reason why TotK Ganon was unable to succeed and best both Rauru and Link.

 

[Moblinking5000]

My first impression is to be careful about placing BotW and TotK in a specific point in the main timeline.

Well, we know due to both Aonuma and ingame evidence that BotW and TotK are both atleast after OoT and in a world where there's been many battles with Ganon(with him referring to Ganon as a single entity which would be weird if the branch that the Wild Era is in has had multiple Ganons), so make of that as you will.

That aside he does not have the same body as from OoT. We see the Gerudo serving Ganon in Rauru's time as a regular Gerudo. He does not yet have the power that usually belongs to Ganon.

We see him summon an army of Molduga to wreck the Zonai's ****. Could someone who is a ''regular Gerudo'' do something of THAT magnitude?

Fallen Hero Timeline has the Oracle combined ending, aLBW, and tLoZ where Ganon is revived.

Yeah, all of those are the same guy as OoT/ALttP Ganondorf, only with him having gone bat **** insane as a result of Twinrova's botched revival in the Oracles. He's not a reincarnation like in FSA, and in fact, he seems to have knowledge of who he is(I...am...Ganon...the...Evil...King) and of the Triforce, as per the BS of ALBW and Zelda 1.

These event also have many differences from OoT such as the stones, Moldugas, and the presence of an adult Zelda are just a few of these differences.

You know that I'm not arguing that the TotK IW/(Re)founding era is the OoT era, right?

Also, while the Gerudo during Link's time have pointed ears, at least some of the Gerudo from Rauru's time do not. The image below shows rounded ears of the Gerudo fighting alongside Rauru.

False; Ganon is literally the ONLY Gerudo in the founding era to have round ears, pointing towards him being a Gerudo from an even more ancient era, as per CaC when it comes to the subjects of why Gerudo ears have changed from round to pointed AND the subject of the man who became the Calamity that fought Ruto and Nabooru from OoT. Considering that Hidemaro says he doesn't do things by accident, he has to be trying to tell us something by doing that. Otherwise, why differentiate a single Gerudo in such a way? The TotK IW Gerudo sage actually has pointed ears, although it's hard to tell; go to 2:35 of this video and you'll see it clearly:

The Legend of Zelda: Tears of the Kingdom - Gerudo's Ancestor The Sage of Lightening

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The Ganon in TotK is determined, confident, and bold. He believes himself to outmatch everyone including Link. Both laughing off the Master Sword and sending Link to square one without a care in the world shows the stark differences between WW Ganon and TotK Ganon.

Actually, TotK Ganondorf's personality is quite consistent with previous depictions of the OG Ganon; he longs for the past like TWW Ganon, for example, which is made very clear in the JP version of TotK where he longs for the past that had ''stronger spirits'', he wants the world to be shrouded in darkness and not ''bathed in insufferable light'' just like how he wants to blot out the light as he says in TP. And just like in OoT, ALttP, TP, etc. he wants to rule the world.

Both TotK and TWW Ganon disparage/mock the MS; TotK Ganon at the beginning saying that it can't withstand the power of his miasma, and TWW Ganon saying that its edges are dull.

TotK Ganondorf, while powerful, seems to have no memories of OoT.

Him not mentioning OoT doesn't mean anything as to whether he has memories of that time or not. It's an irrelevant point, as it is not indicative of anything conclusive.