How many sages were there?

[Inflexus]

Why are you still arguing against the facts coming straight from Nintendo?

Because the facts that you claim come from Nintendo are rather inconsistant with any logic.

 

[Matthew_79]

Inflexus, Nintendo did say that.
And what they arnt incositent, its just not the full picture

Im just wondering, does that trophy show them wearing masks?

 

[Inflexus]

Inflexus, Nintendo did say that.
And what they arnt incositent, its just not the full picture

The plots of the games and the storylines that exist within the games also provide information, and that is inconsistant with what Nintendo has released. There is no valid logic to account for these claims.

 

[Crow_Krieger]

I would think the sages would be more like the pope (To relate it to a real life thing) and are more like the spiritual person of that particular thing and such.

Nintendo is never clear on certain things like this and there logic is flawed in a lot of ways. Like how you can kill Gandorf like what? Every Zelda game out there?

 

[Matthew_79]

Remeber when you get the mastersword in WW?

The stainglass windows in there show all the sages.

 

[zeypherlink]

The Seven Sages (OoT) = Seven Wise Men (ALttP) = Sages in TP
It's Zelda 101, guise.

That's because they needed the game to be simplified, if you notice, there was no Goron sage in WW, which is unfortunate and confirms my theory about there being no truely connected timeline.

Ignorant much?
There were only 2 Sages in TWW because uh, their purpose was to power the weakened Master Sword. The 7 Sages are long gone with the flooding of Hyrule, so why do you say there would be a Goron Sage.
Have you even beaten any Zelda games?

 

[MrMosley]

There were only two in WW because it was only necessary to show two of them. It dosen't mean that there aren't any more than that left. The sages can't die from the flood because they aren't necessarily mortal. Which is why I said in an earlier post that the characters who became sages apparently died in OoT, and reawoken as Sages.

But back to the two sages thing, they only needed to power the Master Sword. One sage turned out to be a Kokiri kid spirit which reawakened in Makar. The other was a Zora who reawoken within Medli. Saria, a Kokiri, and Ruto, a Zora, may have been of the first awoken sages, and were later reborn into these spirits we see in WW, thus being awoken or transplaced again within the two characters (Makar and Medli), in WW.

 

[blackice_cc]

There were only two in WW because it was only necessary to show two of them. It dosen't mean that there aren't any more than that left. The sages can't die from the flood because they aren't necessarily mortal. Which is why I said in an earlier post that the characters who became sages apparently died in OoT, and reawoken as Sages.

But back to the two sages thing, they only needed to power the Master Sword. One sage turned out to be a Kokiri kid spirit which reawakened in Makar. The other was a Zora who reawoken within Medli. Saria, a Kokiri, and Ruto, a Zora, may have been of the first awoken sages, and were later reborn into these spirits we see in WW, thus being awoken or transplaced again within the two characters (Makar and Medli), in WW.

Well, a couple of things Dark_link01. First, in TP one of the Sages is killed by Ganondorf, so that tells us that Sages aren't immortal. Second, well, the Kokiri spirit we see in WW seems to be a male, so that rules out Saria, and anyway Saria had green hair, when this guy is blond. Possible that the kokiri spirit in WW was an apprentice of Saria's or something. About the characters that become Sages in OoT dieing, then reawakening as Sages is an interesting theory, but there isn't really any way to prove it. I believe that the old Sages died in the flood of Hyrule, and that the 2 new ones were all that they needed at this point, because Ganondorf wasn't around. All that the Sages needed to do after Ganondorf returned was power up the Master sword, so only 2 of them were needed, where in OoT 7 were needed to lock him away.

 

[dumb180]

I think it's possible that several of the games have the same sages.

AoL's sage towns: The sages from OoT get towns named after them in this game. Since most people seem to think of AoL as being on the Child Timeline, that's a tad odd. The sages that Link awoke never sealed Ganondorf away. That was done by TP's sages after Ganondorf's failed execution. Nevertheless, we still have towns named after OoT's sages. I think it's be because TP's sages are the sages from OoT, only in spirit form.

I'm not sure if it continues into alttp, as it's clearly stated those sages are descendants. But it could be. They seem to transcend bodily form.

I can't speak with much authority on sages from WW, as I haven't played it.

 

[NULL]

Also, Somethign about WW. There was only 2 Temples, The Wind(?) Templte to the South, and the Earth Temple to the North. So only need for 2 sages. For some reason before the flood of Hyrule there was only two temples.

Pour example, The events after the CL of OOT can take place across a long amount of time, where ganon came back, started to take over the kingdom of Hyrule, and the time where the gods flooded Hyrule, so most the Temples/Sages would have been Destroyed/Killed (most temples except two, and all the sages were killed.)

Just a theory i'm throwing out there.

 

[Shadsie]

The wonkiness with the Sages and the AoL towns named for them could be proof of "no true Timeline" or of a linear Timeline.

*Dodges thrown garbage* or not.

Before anyone calls me a "fool" or lobs other random, uncalled-for insults, I've let it known many times that *I* really don't give a flying Deku nut about the Timeline. The Timeline could be anything to me. It could be a wheel within a wheel for all I care.

Split, Linear or Non-existant, I think the whole Sage-thing is just one of the running things of Zelda. The Zelda crew came up with it for A Link to the Past and just continued the concept in OoT, and so on. I'm not sure Nintendo cares about connecting them all as much as the fans do. Regarding TP's botched execution of Ganondorf - in trying to connect it to other games (OoT), it's kind of convulted, hard to make sense out of. And the TP sages are *weird.*

I think there could be any number of Sages in Hyrule - depending upon the need. I think the "main" ones are the 7, but, sometimes, a "Sage of Winds" or a "Sage of Earth" is needed and thus deputized. I don't think they necessarily die to become Sages (Medli and Makar didn't have to die in WW, and, in fact, Laruto and Fado *lost* their Sage-powers/position when they were killed)! The OoT Sages might have all died - or they may have simply been awakened and bid to go to the spirit realm. That was never clear to me.

The TP sages could be some kind of "old sages" - spirit beings who carry on their duties and are in thier positions because the OoT race-Sages didn't get awakened in their timeline.

Or, maybe they are the OoT Sages, in a "pure spirit" form - which is why they appear uniform, rather than in the forms we know from OoT. I don't think the OoT Sages necessiarily needed to die to become Sages (as I said above), and perhaps they did get awakened to their duties - in a much gentler way than what happened in the game in the Adult Timeline (using the Split Timeline model). Becoming a Sage might be like becoming a nun or priest - a "calling you feel" and a comitment you make. In other words, Saria didn't have to get napped by evil Forest Temple monsters and have the temple cleared, she just had to feel a particularly strange call while playing in the forest one day... ?

 

[Y2K3]

About there being only 2 sages in WW, I read somewhere (can't remember where) that there was supposed to be another dungeon, but it ended up getting cut in the end. If this is the case, perhaps that's why there is no goron sage. Just a thought.

 

[Locke]

Focusing on the CT for now, it is important to note that the Sages are given their powers through a spiritual connection with the goddesses. The goddesses choose one representative member of each race to form this connection with. In the CT, Ganondorf doesn't get a chance to gain power, so the goddesses see no need in appointing new Sages. (Now, someone will have to remind me if the scene in TP shows Ganondorf being executed/sealed by the Sages, or just by the King or something.) The sage figures that appear in TP are the 'spiritual connections' that I mentioned earlier, without hosts.


Now for the AT, the 7 Sages of OoT were awakened with Link's help (well, really, 5, as Rauru and Zelda were already aware). They then sealed Ganondorf in the Sacred Realm. After a while, the goddesses appoint 7 new Sages, including Raruto, Fodo, and probably a Zelda that doesn't appear in any game (except maybe AoL BS, now that I think about it?). (That's 14 so far, 9 or 10 of which appear in-game) Now these new Sages may or may not be literal descendents of the OoT ones. Anyway, Ganondorf escapes from the Sacred Realm, and with no hero to stop him, kills all the sages (and maybe puts Zelda to sleep...probably not). The people pray, Hyrule is flooded.

More years go by, Ganondorf escapes again (partially), and the goddesses appoint seven more sages, including Medli, Makar, and maybe Tetra/Zelda (that is never actually stated in-game, but I'm assuming that since the original Zelda was a Sage, the goddesses would continue to appoint Hylian Sages from the royal family). (That's 21 now, 11-13 appearing in-game.) Wind Waker only showed the two Sages just to make the game easier to make and easier to play. (With 5/6 dungeons already, 5 more would be way too much, plus they'd have to either remove islands to make room for the new temples or make the grid 8x8, which would be an insane amount of work.)

Depending on whether the BS of LttP is the SW or not, the Sages spoken of could be the OoT ones, or different sages that didn't appear in any games. That would make 28 total, 11-13 of which being in-game, if you don't count the 7 maidens as Sages.


In my timelne, AoL is in the AT, so the names of the towns make sense (though that's far from the only reason I put it there), and LttP is in the CT, OoT not being the SW, meaning the sages in the BS of LttP don't appear in other games.


So basically, I think the Sages are mortal, and there can be any number of them, but 11-13 of them appear in games, depending on if you count Tetra or the Zelda from AoL's BS.

 

[DeletedUser9]

Wanted to point some things out and respond to a couple of comments throughout this thread that caught my attention...

First off, everyone seems to be forgetting one major thing. In OoT, there was a lot of references to other sages. Two in particular. First of all, it has been stated by the Gossip Stones in game that Kaepora Gaebora (the owl) is the reincarnation of an ancient sage. This immediately disproves the concept of the sages being spiritual entities who occasionally reside in bodies because Kaepora Gaebora existed at the same time as all 7 of the sages did. If they were always the same entity, the owl and the sages could not exist at the same time.

Also, when first meeting him/her, Sheik states that there were previous sages. I can't quite recall if they died normally, disappeared, or were killed by Ganondorf, but he does state that the sages you go around rescuing are new sages.

Yeah but in cheesewaker there are 9 sages:light, forest, fire, water, spirit, shadow, earth, and wind. However, one thing that puzzles me is that fado, a kokiri, was a sage. There were no kokiri in WW, there were koroks. Maybe that was before they tuned into korok?

That's not true. Only 2 sages appear in the game, Earth and Wind. Theoretically Zelda could also be considered a sage, but that only brings the count to 3. Also note that both the Earth and Wind sages that existed prior were dead. So the fact that Fado was a Kokiri is clearly because he died prior to the Kokiri's transformation into the Koroks.

It was hinted at, at least I thought so, that they had died. Because each one entered the temple (maybe except for Saria, that one I don't quite remember) and tried to fight the boss or at least save the temple itself in some way, but were killed by the boss. I'm pretty positive Ruto and Impa done this, but I know that Darunia and Nabooru did.

You're right about one thing: that they all entered the temple to defeat the boss or save the temple. To say they died, however, is a bit of a stretch IMO. I always assumed they were captured. Either way, they all appear in the Chamber of Sages, and while that doesn't necessarily mean they're alive, it stands out to me that Link and Zelda have both appeared there, and that it is specifically stated to be a physical location in the Temple of Light within the Sacred Realm.

Saria disappears. You never see her outside of the Chamber of Sages as Adult Link. Darunia goes off to fight the boss. His fate is unclear. Ruto disappears in the temple; it never says she encounters Morpha. Impa simply enters the temple to stop Bongo Bongo. Again, what happens afterward isn't clear. Finally, Nabooru encounters Twinrova, but is captured and mind controlled, and turned into an Iron Knuckle. After she is defeated by Link, she is captured again. It could be said that she was killed, but I'm pretty sure I remember Koume and Kotake saying something specific about either brainwashing her again or that she would still be useful.

So, it's possible, they could have died, but there's no conclusive evidence and it's strongly suggested that at least one definitely survived. If she wasn't dead, I don't see how the others could be because their fates all seemed to be the same.

I was wondering why would they add the extra 2 sages?

It's first important to note that Earth and Wind are major elements. In fact, the real elements as classified in mythologies and alchemy almost always include those two elements. The only occurrence of elements in real history I can think of that doesn't include one is Chinese Alchemy, which removes Wind in favor of Metal. Regardless, those are major elements. Their exclusion from OoT is actually pretty strange. It's actually true that the Forest Temple in OoT was originally going to be the Wind Temple, but that was cut out.

Basically, my theory is that in order to be more artistically creative, they included new temples that hadn't been done yet. Both elements make a lot of sense as they're major ones. Also, Wind was to appear in OoT, and is a major element of the game. Earth is essentially the opposite of Wind, so it makes a lot of sense as well.

As for what that means to the timeline and to the sages, well... I see it possibly as two elements and sages who existed in OoT but never appeared (unlikely, IMO). The other two possibilities is that they weren't "official" sages, and served a completely separate purpose than the sages of OoT, OR the sages themselves evolved over time: into different elements. The other elements might have been more or less phased out, or they simply didn't appear in the story. The inclusion of different races as the sages is irrelevant because it's clear that the sages have been of various races; sometimes all Hylian.

This game also strongly disproves the concept of the sages being the same entities every time, because the ghosts, specifically, of the two old sages, Laruto and Fado, appear at the same time as their living descendants. They are also clearly stated to be descendants, not reincarnations, and they even speak to their ancestors.

Assuming you can cite that quote, then why did they need to get rid of the sages and then spawn 2 new ones?

And Nintendo hasn't been logically consistant, I've proven this.

Not sure about his specific quote, but that information is correct. Within the game itself, the King of the Red Lions specifically states that it is hundreds of years since the events of OoT. To not believe the developers is one thing (actually, I would support you there, because they do contradict the crap out of themselves), but this is straight from the game itself.

While the games have been unclear at times in how they relate to each other, I can't recall them ever blatantly contradicting one another, so I think this to be pretty solid evidence. It also makes sense thinking about it logically. Consider the changes in the world and the things people remember, hundreds of years sounds perfectly accurate.

 

[zc16-rmeppelink]

I think that I heard somewhere that there were 7 of them