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General Zelda Why Does Nintendo Waste Time on Gimmicks and Art Style?

Ventus

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I've been pondering the development time of typical Zelda games, and I figured that two components make up a sizable chunk of the dev time: what art style to use, and how to implement gimmicks. I'll be frank; it feels like Nintendo is doing nothing but experimenting with modern Zelda. They aren't making games so much as development playgrounds. Since TWW, it feels like they have been just testing art styles to see the reaction, and since PH, it feels like they've been trying to make a gimmick-laden experience to show off the capabilities of the hardware.

But...why? Why does NIntendo waste so much time with gimmicks and art style when they could just make a decent game?
 

JuicieJ

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Experimenting with art styles is fine. It aids each game in having its own specific flavor. They also aren't using gimmicks. The control schemes they use always work flawlessly and flow with the game design seamlessly, just like they've done in the past.

So there's your answer. :)
 

JuicieJ

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>implying gimmick means this can't happen

Gimmicks are sort of a single feature that you use to sell the product. In the entire Wii's and its game's case, this is motion controls. It doesn't matter whether it works or if it's seamless or what have you, it's the fact that this is what is shown to sell the product, and sometimes what is most focused on in the product. Skyward Sword is a great example of this.

No, a gimmick is something pointlessly shoehorned into a game and used frequently just because. This can be things like Quick Time Events, button-mashing, and waggling (something SS's design discourages). A selling point is just a selling point. Nothing more, nothing less.

Of course, focusing on such things isn't really what makes a great game. I personally don't care for how it plays, but what is actually in the game. Besides the controls, Skyward Sword felt like a completely normal Zelda game.

I can agree with that.
 

JuicieJ

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Please provide proof and/or a credible source.

Personal experience and judgement. That's all that's capable of being provided. I can't really put statistics on something like this, so we're just gonna have to leave it at that. (No, seriously, let's just leave it at that. No sense in keeping a never-ending cycle going.)

Also, the word gimmick does not imply any thing bad. Your last post tells me you think it does.

Eh, I'm used to people viewing it as such. Guess it rubbed off on me. :/
 

Cfrock

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A gimmick, by definition, is something used to attract attention. Motion controls in Skyward Sword were not there for attention; they were there to try to make the world of Zelda feel more immersive. They were used because Nintendo believed they would make the gameplay more engaging and offer a better experience. They aren't a gimmick. Similarly, the touch-based controls of Phantom Hourglass and Spirit Tracks are not gimmicks either. Again, they were not their to make people think 'Ooh, touchy! Me wanna play!', they were there because Nintendo saw that the system's control scheme allowed for what they saw as a more fluid and intuitive control system that would make playing a Zelda game while on the move easier.

The term gimmick is thrown around so freely these days and it is almost always used incorrectly. So right from the start I disagree that Nintendo waste time on gimmicks because I am yet to see any in a Zelda game.

As for art styles, well, I wonder how much of their development time that really takes up. Development on video games typically begins with a lot of concept art and discussions and the general look of a game will probably form within a matter of a few weeks. There will be changes and alterations and such but deciding on an art style and creating characters and locations that work with it is most likely a small part of development that doesn't waste time. With SS, the long development time was probably spent on the controls. Remember that Motion Plus never came along until 2009, which means that the earliest versions of SS would likely have been using the original Wiimotes. That kind of change would have meant starting from scratch with the controls and the dev team no doubt got a lot of new ideas from the newer technology that they then implemented.

So I have to disagree. I do not feel that Nintendo are wasting time on 'gimmicks' or art styles because Zelda doesn't use gimmicks and the art style won't take up a huge amount of development time. I think it may just be your own personal response to not liking the recent installments in the series, if I'm honest. The OP is fairly weighted to that negative point of view.
 

Justac00lguy

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This has always annoyed me about the franchise we know as Zelda...

We have seen 16 games in the series and notably only 4 made Zelda move forward or develop the franchise. It seems that Nintendo love to experiment and note there is nothing wrong with that, experimentation is needed to make a breakthrough however does the Zelda franchise need a breakthrough? No.

Zelda is one of the most known franchises in gaming and it seems that most of it's fans stick around for the bad parts and hope for the franchise to make a leap forward. The template is there...We have the set up for a great story, a great soundtrack, controls, music, gameplay, exploration Etc. It seems that instead of expanding on thses ideas, Nintendo seem to go back to the drawing boards :/ This was clearly evident in the development of Skyward Sword:

- Motion Plus gets released
- Nintendo recognise the potential
- Build the game around sword play mechanics and 1:1 sword motion
- Base the story around a sword due to it being it's main attraction
- How about the origin of the Master Sword?
- They implement a new graphical style to again "experiment"
- And thus Skyward Sword is born

Now in my opinion this is completely backwards....Why go off a gimmick just like the DS games did? It was clear that the main selling point of Skyward Sword was the Wii Motion Plus, the marketing, the showcasing Etc. Skyward Sword seemed like it was in the development stage for a long time, this probably wasted a lot of time and am sure one would say "Time equals a better game" but this isn't the case. It seems that Nintendo spend the majority of the time experimenting coming up with an all new Zelda :/ They have the perfect format, just build/expand off the original formula maybe add features from other games, like RPG elements.

I am expecting that Zelda Wii U really tries to make the jump that I originally thought Skyward Sword would have done but we have witnessed many times before the case where Nintendo side track.
 

JuicieJ

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- Motion Plus gets released
- Nintendo recognise the potential
- Build the game around sword play mechanics and 1:1 sword motion
- Base the story around a sword due to it being it's main attraction
- How about the origin of the Master Sword?
- They implement a new graphical style to again "experiment"
- And thus Skyward Sword is born

Sorry, but as I've said before, this is purely conjecture and has no proof whatsoever. I also highly doubt this was their mindset. They clearly had Skyward Sword's story in mind when they made Twilight Princess. The correlations between the two are uncanny. Plus, Aonuma actually considered not using the Wii MotionPlus at one point in the development process, as he was unsure whether it was the route to go with the franchise or not. Nintendo also always tries to take advantage of their technology. They even did it with the new 3D environment in Ocarina of Time. The evidence honestly points to the complete opposite of what you're saying. Sorry to burst your bubble, but that's just how it is.
 

Justac00lguy

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Sorry, but as I've said before, this is purely conjecture and has no proof whatsoever. I also highly doubt this was their mindset. They clearly had Skyward Sword's story in mind when they made Twilight Princess. The correlations between the two are uncanny. Plus, Aonuma actually considered not using the Wii MotionPlus at one point in the development process, as he was unsure whether it was the route to go with the franchise or not. Nintendo also always tries to take advantage of their technology. They even did it with the new 3D environment in Ocarina of Time. The evidence honestly points to the complete opposite of what you're saying. Sorry to burst your bubble, but that's just how it is.

If I remember right they did actually say that they liked the idea of the sword play mechanics used in the Mini game from Wii Sports Resort and they decided that this was the route to take...

I highly doubt they went off the story of Twilight Princess, they simply used certain elements from that game to make the game seem familiar:

- Fi ending-Midna ending
- Ghirahim acting as a sub villain
- Silent Relams-Twilight Relams Ect. Ect.

Nintendo seemed to throw one too many references in the game to make it seem "familiar" or to appeal to the fans of the other games, I easily saw through this :/
 
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JuicieJ

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If I remember right they did actually say that liked the idea of the sword play mechanics used in the Mini game from Wii Sports Resort...

Yeah, which is ultimately why Aonuma made the decision to go with it. That doesn't mean they decided to base the story on that, though. If I'm being honest, that's grasping for straws way out in the depths of space. It's merely looking into something that's just not there.

I highly doubt they went off the story of Twilight Princess, they simply used certain elements from that game to make the game seem familiar:

- Fi ending-Midna ending
- Ghirahim acting as a sub villain
- Silent Relams-Twilight Relams Ect. Ect.

Nintendo seemed to throw one too many references in the game to make it seem "familiar" or to appeal to the fans of the other games, I easily saw through this :/

Twilight Princess did this way more in relation to Ocarina of Time. It even went so far as to re-use the four Poes stealing flames from four torches from the Forest Temple in Ocarina of Time.

I'm also 100% sure they had the basis of Skyward Sword's plot in mind when they made Twilight Princess. The Sky was a plot point in both of them, an ancient hero was referenced (couldn't be the Hero of Time, as that Link didn't save Hyrule in the Child Timeline), and the Dragons & Light Spirits have the same names and reside in the same Provinces (also something that correlates between them).
 

Justac00lguy

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I'm also 100% sure they had the basis of Skyward Sword's plot in mind when they made Twilight Princess. The Sky was a plot point in both of them, an ancient hero was referenced (couldn't be the Hero of Time, as that Link didn't save Hyrule in the Child Timeline), and the Dragons & Light Spirits have the same names and reside in the same Provinces (also something that correlates between them).

I would highly doubt that they has Skyward Sword planned before the Twilight Princess was released....

Skyward Sword was in development for a long time and am sure if they had certain llot points already planned out before hand the game would been released a lot earlier than the November 2011 date. This just doesn't seem like Nintendo at all to have a game planned out years before it's initial release. I think it was highly plausible that the stage of events that I listed did actually occur, it just seems like Nintendo to go off that basis with the Gimmicks they go off on the Wii, in fact I am surprised they didn't call it Legend of Zelda: Wii Motion+
 

Cfrock

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I already stated that how they actually effect the game is irrelevant.

I spoke of the motive, not the effect. I know that whether the controls were successful in making the game immersive or not is irrelevant but I was talking about the reasoning behind their use. The fact that there is plenty of justification for using the motion controls precludes them being merely a gimmick as they are not just there 'for show', which is what gimmicks are. The motion controls serve a purpose and Nintendo used them for that.

The fact is that Nintendo made a big deal about the motion controls, and focused more on that than any thing in the game.

They also made a big deal about Skyward Sword being a prequel, about it showing the origin of the Master Sword and about the relationship between Link and Zelda. SS was not marketed solely on its control scheme and Nintendo made just as much fuss about the changes to their approach with story-telling as well as the changes they were making to the overworld too. By this logic, pretty much the whole game was a gimmick. A gimmick is something done to attract you to a product, not the product itself.

The fact that it's a single feature, that it's the biggest feature, and that it's what they talked about most when discussing the game, makes it a gimmick.

No, the fact that it is their to make use of a piece of hardware and attempts to make a more immersive and intuitive experience for the player makes it not a gimmick. To say the controls were the biggest feature in SS seems a bit odd when you look at all the other changes to the typical Zelda game it made. Things like upgrades, stamina, potion infusions, shield degeneration and a separated overworld all make far more difference than the controls themselves. The controls are just kind of there because this is the Wii and that's what its controller is, a Wiimote. I don't think it's right to call them the biggest feature because then we should call the controls the biggest feature in every game. Was Ocarina of Time's use of Z-Targetting a gimmick? No, it was a device used because Nintendo had a Z button that needed a function. Was the control stick a gimmick? No, it was a better way of navigating a 3 dimensional space than a standard directional pad. The controls in Nintendo games have always been a natural result of the controllers, SS is no different. If its controls are a gimmick then logically all control schemes are gimmicks.

Nintendo is a company, companies need something to attract attention. For Zelda, motion controls were the perfect thing for that.

Again, Nintendo didn't think 'You know what will make this new Zelda game sell well? Motion controls!' They thought 'Let's make a new Zelda game for the Wii.' The use of motion controls came not from a superficial desire to make the game more appealing but from the fact that the sytem it was developed for had a motion-based controller. This logic basically means every game ever released for the Wii was a gimmick, because they all used motion controls too.

Nintendo would have gotten the whole gaming industry's attention just by announcing a Zelda game without even giving it a title. In fact, that's exactly what happened in 2009 when they released a single image for an as yet unnamed Zelda game and it was all anyone talked about for weeks afterwards. The image wasn't even shown as part of their conference. Zelda doesn't need and doesn't use gimmicks and I find it inappropriate to label motion controls as such because they have a purpose beyond novelty, they were not singled out as the sole new feature of the game, there were a lot of other new things that Nintendo did with SS and motion control is what the Wii was built for so their use in Wii games is not simply for attention.
 

Castle

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Nintendo has far more often than not done business to suit themselves, not customers or colleges.

Players want what? Nintendo will do something contrary.
Third party developers? Who needs em!

Nintendo loves to play to satisfy themselves. Unfortunately, their quest for the next gimmick often leaves everyone else wanting.

I gotta give Ninty cred for trying to give us something we don't know we'll like instead of what we ask for, but what we usually end up with is something we only kinda sorta appreciate certain aspects of but are mostly critical of. The Big N is really stretching in their effort to force unnecessary innovation in their products, and this often means wasting tons of time and gamers patience on a quest for the next gimmick.
 

JuicieJ

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I gotta give Ninty cred for trying to give us something we don't know we'll like instead of what we ask for, but what we usually end up with is something we only kinda sorta appreciate certain aspects of but are mostly critical of. The Big N is really stretching in their effort to force unnecessary innovation in their products, and this often means wasting tons of time and gamers patience on a quest for the next gimmick.

That's true for a large portion of the Wii's library, and it's something they needed to fix. Thankfully it looks like they'll fix this in the near future with the Wii U, as they've set themselves up to have a balance of doing they're own thing alongside of third party companies doing their's.
 

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