Spoiler The Hero of Winds is related to a past Link after all!

[Zurriel]

Dude your better then me.

Something I like to do is put my theory on paper. Have you main part first, then write down the smaller details to keep it organized. Then write a separate section about the weak points and evidence to back it up. This make it easy to remember your theory when your discussing as you can just look at your paper. Doing this I found holes in my own ideas and worked on correcting them.It's not for everyone, but it might help you keep track of everything.

But I'm unable to help you with the chat room, as I don't really care for them, or know where a good one to use is. And I don't have a Wii U...YET!

Now my only question I really want to know is if your theory is dependent on the Hero of Winds being of the bloodline of the Hero of Time

 

[Turon]

First of all, thanks for keeping your responses short, Zurriel. I'm feeling a bit better now, so I'll answer everything you asked this time.

Dude your better then me.

Thanks. You have good debating skills yourself.

Something I like to do is put my theory on paper. Have you main part first, then write down the smaller details to keep it organized. Then write a separate section about the weak points and evidence to back it up. This make it easy to remember your theory when your discussing as you can just look at your paper. Doing this I found holes in my own ideas and worked on correcting them.It's not for everyone, but it might help you keep track of everything.

I like the sound of that, but I don't know what to put down, since most most of my theory is already out in the open. I just wish I could find more evidence.

But I'm unable to help you with the chat room, as I don't really care for them, or know where a good one to use is. And I don't have a Wii U...YET!

Alright. I didn't mean to make you think I was looking for a chat room. I'd recommend getting the TWWHD bundle more than of any other Wii U. It is the same price as a regular deluxe, (which is what I have) with TWWHD and gold detail on the Gamepad at no extra cost. Yay Nintendo!

Now my only question I really want to know is if your theory is dependent on the Hero of Winds being of the bloodline of the Hero of Time

I don't think so, but I could be wrong. I think the movement of the MS to HC, the shattered ToC, the Scroll of the Hero of Time, and the Hero's Shield support my theory pretty well, despite only being support and not concrete.

Here is a response to your last post as well, Zurriel.

If one thing is true, then the opposite is true. Just because the Hero Shield is said to have be used by the Hero of Time doesn't mean it was. Remember this was also part of the Legend....

The Hero's Shield is identical to the shield used in TMC and FS, so it is logical to assume it is has been passed down, so why would it skip being in the hands of the HoT? Also, Link's Grandma says that "Hanging the FAMILY shield on the wall is tradition..." and when you obtain the shield it says "This IS the legendary shield said to have been used by the hero himself."

Wait, do you mean that little description that pops when you get the shield, or the one Links Grandma gives, I don't remember that part super well, so I might be wrong.

I meant the description you get when you first obtain it and what she tells you about it when you get the Hero's Clothes.


I have edited the first post in this thread to word things better, expand it, and remove some errors and contadictions, so check it out if you want. Also, I was so stupid to ask for a translation earlier. One simple search is all it took. Like I said, I haven't been thinking clearly lately. Haha


I also have 3 things to say to you, TheBlueReptile.
#1: I am going to need more time to gather my thoughts before I respond to your last post. You posted quite a bit. Sorry and thanks for understanding.
#2: Due to your awesome debating skills, by the power invested in me, being the Golden God, I give you the title, the Hero of Debate. Please wear the title with pride.
#3: In your first post to this thread, you said "that he [the HoW] even drew the Master Sword before being truly accepted as a hero by the Gods." You inadvertently helped support my claim that the HoW is a descendant of the HoT, because being part of the HoT's bloodline would allow him to draw the MS "before being truly accepted as a hero by the Gods."

 

[OcarinistOfTime]

HoW didn't get the master sword until after completing the ToG thus proving him worthy of the title Hero. As stated the ToC shattered because HoT was sent back at the end of OoT, not because HoT beat it with the megaton hammer. HoT DID NOT time travel in Hyrule after Zelda returned him to his childhood, I'm not even certain he returned from Termina (although thats another can of worms). As for the Scroll, I'm not sure how it supports your claim. The shield more likely (although with as much evidence as this theory) connects HoW with the Link from the 4 swords games seeing as HoT used the Hylian shield. I also want to apologize if I seem rude or spiteful, I just don't like your theory to a personal degree as it destroys one of the reasons HoW is my favorite Link. Also you're not really arguing with us you're arguing with Aonuma who has said HoW is not of the HoT bloodline. And welcome to ZD!

 

[Cfrock]

A lot of what I have to say about this theory has already been said, so I'll try my best not to repeat too much.

It seems that this theory somewhat relies on the Hero of Winds being descended from the Hero of Time, since that is the explanation for the Hero of Time's motivation to return to the Adult Timeline as well as for pretty much everything to do with the apparant moving of the Master Sword. However, in-game quotations from The Wind Waker, which Zurriel brought up, prove this to be false.

Jabun: If you have sought me out...it must mean
you have found the Hero of Time,
does it not?

King of Red Lions: Unfortunately, that is not so.

Jabun: Then for what purpose have you come to
see me?

King of Red Lions: The one I have brought with me has no
connection to the legendary one.

And yet I sense great promise in the
courage that this one possesses.

As Blue pointed out, The King of Red Lions already knew that Tetra was the descendant of Princess Zelda at this point:

Jabun: Tell me, Hyrule King...
Have you learned the whereabouts of the
one who carries on the bloodline of the
princess, Zelda?

King of Red Lions: ...I believe I have

It's possible he came to this conclusion due to Tetra's possession of his Gossip Stone but that seems like pretty weak evidence to trust when dealing with the greatest evil the world has ever known. After all, he goes to the trouble of making Link prove himself to the Gods themselves before he explains what's going on to him. How The King of Red Lions knew Tetra was a descendant of Zelda is unclear, but if he could identify her lineage then surely he could identify Link's lineage as well. He outright states that Link in The Wind Waker has no connection to the Hero of Time. I take in-game information as the highest source of canon, so this, to me, is fact as far as the series is concerned. The Hero of Winds is not a descendant of the Hero of Time.

The HC in TWW couldn't have been built over the ToT, because neither were on a cliffside of a giant body of water at the time the HoT left the AT... It is more than likely that someone of the bloodline or the HoT himself moved it; probably for better protection from corrupt hands looking to release Ganon.

This is another key point in the theory, that the Master Sword is in a new location and only the Hero of Time could have moved it. Most of what I have to say has been said, chiefly that "wield" does not mean "hold" and that it is never stated that the sword can only be used by the Hero of Time and his desecndants (A Link to the Past states that, "one who was pure of heart and strong of body could wield it."). The Hyrule Historia itself proves that other people not connected to the Hero of Time can move it. It was you yourself who brought up that Zelda is the one who returned the Sword after sending the Hero of Time back.

A case can be made in favour of the Sword remaining in the same location between games. We know Zelda returned it to its pedestal in the Temple of Time and that the next time it appears on the Adult Timeline it is in the basement of Hyrule Castle. This suggests the blade was moved. But in the Adult Timeline, Hyrule Castle and the surrounding town was utterly destroyed and a huge crater was left in its place. Clearly, the castle was rebuilt at some point. Castles are built for defence, nothing more. They are structures designed to be defended, to keep kings safe. Building what is nothing more than a fancy fort directly on top of the Master Sword would be the easiest, most direct, and, to a mostly medieval society, the sensible thing to do in order to protect it. All of the turmoil that had swept Hyrule for seven years was caused by someone getting access to the sword, and its placement in The Wind Waker seems to be focused around denying access to all who are not permitted.

You are stating that this could not be the case based on the local geography alone. It's true that the large body of water did not exist during Ocarina of Time and the effects of The Great Flood and erosion and the time-frame this all took place in could be debated at great length with no result. We could discuss how the town that surrounded the castle is nowhere in sight, how the immediate landscape is far more hilly than the relatively flat expanse of Hyrule Field, or that humans are more than capable of creating their own lakes and rivers, especially when they have access to explosives. Blue said it best when he said that "Geography is never a great place to look to when it comes to theory." It's just too inconsistent and has little meaning in Zelda. The physical changes to the castle and the surrounding area are not enough to dismiss the possibility that the sword remained in the same location between Ocarina of Time and The Wind Waker.

My point here is that it can be argued that the Sword can be moved, and indeed wielded, by someone with no connection to the Hero of Time, and that it can also be argued that the Sword never moved at all but new buildings were built around it. I'm not saying you are wrong, just pointing out that dismissing one explanation does not prove the other.

In TWW, TKoRL told the HoW that before the HoT departed, he shattered the ToC into 8 pieces, however, he did not before he returned to the past, as we can see at the end of OoT. If he broke it by leaving, we don't see that as well.

It is still said that The Hero of Time shattered it before he left.

It is never stated at any point that the Hero of Time personally shattered the Triforce of Courage. The actual quotation is as follows:

When the Hero of Time was called to
embark on another journey and left the
land of Hyrule, he was separated from the
elements that made him a hero.

It is said that at that time, the Triforce of
Courage was split into eight shards and
hidden throughout the land.

Even I do not know where they rest, but
this much I do know: they lie hidden
somewhere in this Great Sea.

This is vague at best, yes, and it is clear from The King of Red Lions' wording that this is another event that has passed into legend and the exact details are lost to history. What he says is that the Hero of Time left Hyrule, and then that the Triforce of Courage was split into eight shards. These are stated as two separate events, so while we don't get any details we do get a sense that they are not connected as directly as you suggest.

There are other explanations for this split. For example, we know that the Triforce has some kind of sentience because it senses the good or evil in a person's heart ("The resting place of the sacred triangle, the Sacred Realm, is a mirror that reflects what is in the heart...the heart of one who enters it... If an evil heart, the Realm will become full of evil; if pure, the Realm will become a paradise." - Sheik, Ocarina of Time) and it even talks to Link in A Link to the Past. For this reason it is possible that the Triforce of Courage split itself, waiting for another Hero chosen by the Gods to claim it.

This is just one possibility. Another is that the Gods themselves split it for the same reason. Another still would be that Princess Zelda split it, given the precedent for the Royal Family hiding the Triforce given in Adventure of Link. The point is there are numerous possibilities as to why and how the Triforce of Courage split and each can be backed up with supporting evidence. That does not make any of them true. We simply don't know enough about this split to say for certain either way. Again, I'm not saying you are wrong about the Hero of Time splitting it, just that you need to provide clear and solid evidence to back that statement up.

I can see that you've worked on this theory a lot and are drawing on canonical sources of evidence for most of your statements, so for that, kudos. It's good to see a theory that came out of logic and reasoning rather than liking the idea of something and pretending it is true, even in the face of solid contradictory evidence. That's the difference between theory and fanfiction. However, I personally don't agree with this theory because there are too many "maybes". The Hero of Time might have split the Triforce of Courage, but the theory doesn't prove it. The Master Sword might have been moved somewhere else, but the theory doesn't prove it. Theory also doesn't prove that Link could have travelled between timelines. For me the biggest point against it is that we know the Hero of Winds is not connected to the Hero of Time.

Despite that, this has been an interesting thread to read and, whether I agree with the theory or not, it got me thinking about things I otherwise hadn't thought about (like the possibility that The King of Red Lions knew the truth about Tetra via the Gossip Stone) and that is always good thing.

 

[Salt Dog]

I like the theory.
To add to it I would say that the castle is most likely rebuilt after the events of OoT. But Temple of Time is intact, leaving no reason for the Master Sword to be moved, so it is logical to have Link being the reason for moving it by returning to the AT.

A couple things here.
How would Link return to the AT? As far as we know there is no way to jump timelines. Also, I'm pretty sure no one actually knew what timeline they're in, or that there was even more then one to begin with.

The sword was also moved from the temple on the other timelines. In both TP and ALTTP we see the sword is moved to the lost woods
(I guess you could say in TP that the temple itself was moved... ah who cares)
So unless Link was timeline hoping for some reason, there had to be another way to move the sword, my guess would be the sages could move it around, just not wield it.

And maybe Zelda didn't put the sword back in the temple of time, she could have also waited for the castle to be rebuilt and stuck it there.

This one isn't really important in disproving the theory, so it can be ignored. But if the Hero of Time did return to the AT, why didn't he stop Ganondorf?

The whole MS not being in the same place has been bugging me for quite some time now. Although I am liking some of your guys theories/explanations on this, I do not think we will truly know why until a future Zelda title takes place between MM and TP. I am willing to bet one of the next games coming up is going to take place during that time period to answer some of these questions.

 

[Turon]

I have no idea what to say. I have been pouring my heart out into research since my last post, and the evidence I gathered is not enough.

The whole MS not being in the same place has been bugging me for quite some time now. Although I am liking some of your guys theories/explanations on this, I do not think we will truly know why until a future Zelda title takes place between MM and TP. I am willing to bet one of the next games coming up is going to take place during that time period to answer some of these questions.

I think Salt Dog is right, that until the future, that it is only POSSIBLE that the HoT returned to the AT.

 

[Ocarina_Player]

It should be pointed out that Link's lineage is NOT through blood, but through his spirit. Hylia promised Link that his spirit would live on eternally and would be reborn whenever Hyrule needed his help. So it is highly unlikely that all of the Links, possibly ANY of the Links, are related by blood. He is simply reincarnated whenever he is needed. This is especially apparent since in the AT, Link totally disappears from that time line because Zelda sent him back to live his life normally and regain his lost time. That's why there was no hero to stop Ganon's reappearance and thus the reason for the gods to flood out Hyrule. Only the Zeldas of each game are confirmed to be blood descendants of each other. SS Zelda was Hylia who shed her divinity, so every descendant of hers shares the powers that came with being a mortal goddess.

In short, I do not think that the same Link from the CT jumped into the AT, only that an AT Link was born to carry on his duty. There are basically three separate Links in each time line doing their thing.

 

[Turon]

This entire theory is less the HoT returns and more proving that the HoW is truly a descendant.

So I decided to come back to this again for the long run. I am sticking by this theory and I hope people keep contributing to the thread. I will be posting new information sometime in the near future.

 

[Turon]

Oh ho ho! It's that time again folks! I know I said I'd "be posting new information sometime in the near future," but a lot has happened in my life that kept me from doing so. I had to sell my Hyrule Historia, Zelda U was delayed, and I lost the motivation to play TWW again after a bad friendship made me not want to play it because of the memories. But I've moved on and I've beaten Second Quest for the first time.
I'm going to admit that I am wrong about the Hero of Winds being related to the Hero of Time, the evidence is far too against me. It's been said in-game, we already know that the goddess, and by extension, Zelda, can hold the Master Sword and pull it from it's pedestal, and the Triforce has been split before without Link having to do it.
The only thing that doesn't add up is how the Hero of Winds was able to pull the Master Sword out of it's pedestal without being related to the Hero of Time and without the Triforce of Courage, but I have an explanation for that now: The Hero of Winds is still related to a hero! All Link's are descendants of the Goddess' Chosen Hero (SS Link), this has to be true or else they wouldn't be able to use the Master Sword. So the question is, which one is it, if not the Hero of Time? Yup, you probably guessed it: the Hero of Men from The Minish Cap! His shield is used by the Links in TMM, FS, and FSA. The Four Sword and Master Sword are never referenced in the same game, but the the Hero's Shield is present in TWW. Why do you think this is? Well this is because these Links are part of another branch of the hero's family tree! There isn't a Hero related to the Hero of Time in the Adult Timeline, but Hyrule still has a family line of heroes. But why wasn't there a hero to stop Ganon's return before the flood? There was, but Hyrule didn't know it! when the Hero of Winds first confronted Ganon at the Forsaken Fortress with the Master Sword, he gave it away that his powers were sealed away by it! A Zelda hasn't fought with the Master Sword before, and even if this one did, it's been shown time and time again that Ganon can overpower her. I believe that there was a Link that fought him and was only able to seal away his powers and not truly defeat him. This Link fled to the mountain tops and had a family, eventually having the Hero of Winds as a descendant.
Alright, I'm finished with this for now. Thanks from reading. Helping me elaborate on this more would be appreciated.

 

[Spiritual Mask Salesman]

"Though this is not the end. My hate... never perishes. It is born anew in a cycle with no end! I will rise again. Those like you... Those who share the blood of the goddess and the spirit of the hero... They are eternally bound to this curse. An incarnation of my hatred shall ever follow your kind, dooming them to wander a blood-soaked sea of darkness for all time!" — Demise

It's the Spirit of the Hero that was reincarnated. It's what ties Wind Waker Link, and all Link's together. They don't all have to be related by blood, the connection transcends that. Otherwise Wind Waker Link may have never pulled the Master Sword if there had to be a blood relation.

 

[Jirohnagi]

"Though this is not the end. My hate... never perishes. It is born anew in a cycle with no end! I will rise again. Those like you... Those who share the blood of the goddess and the spirit of the hero... They are eternally bound to this curse. An incarnation of my hatred shall ever follow your kind, dooming them to wander a blood-soaked sea of darkness for all time!" — Demise

It's the Spirit of the Hero that was reincarnated. It's what ties Wind Waker Link, and all Link's together. They don't all have to be related by blood, the connection transcends that. Otherwise Wind Waker Link may have never pulled the Master Sword if there had to be a blood relation.

I think WW Link was like ALTTP Link and ALBW Link, they each in their respective timelines had to travel to several dungeons to get what appear to items of credit (things that state YOU'RE A HERO) funny thing is each of those three objects Pendants or Pearls bear a very large representation to the Spiritual Stones which OOT Link gathered to get to the MM, i think in each of these new links cases none of them were really acknowledged to be in the Hero of Time's league for the simple fact the Master Sword could be pulled by them but it's time abilities were held in abeyance which i think requires the 4th keys the Song/Ocarina of Time, i think it was WW Link's gathering of them PLUS the final challenge in Tower of the Gods that allowed him to pull the sword, but even then the sword was weakened, so he became a greater hero, which i'd say put him close to OOT Links heroing, allowing the sword to recognize him as a true wielder.

 

[Spiritual Mask Salesman]

I think WW Link was like ALTTP Link and ALBW Link, they each in their respective timelines had to travel to several dungeons to get what appear to items of credit (things that state YOU'RE A HERO) funny thing is each of those three objects Pendants or Pearls bear a very large representation to the Spiritual Stones which OOT Link gathered to get to the MM, i think in each of these new links cases none of them were really acknowledged to be in the Hero of Time's league for the simple fact the Master Sword could be pulled by them but it's time abilities were held in abeyance which i think requires the 4th keys the Song/Ocarina of Time, i think it was WW Link's gathering of them PLUS the final challenge in Tower of the Gods that allowed him to pull the sword, but even then the sword was weakened, so he became a greater hero, which i'd say put him close to OOT Links heroing, allowing the sword to recognize him as a true wielder.

Yeah I do think all the stuff before was groundwork that helped him become a hero in his own right. That's basically what the Tower of the Gods was designed for, as a grand trail for a Hero. Since Link completed it he was worthy to descend below the seas and obtain the Master Sword.