Spoiler The Avatar of Ganon

[Dio]

Ever since Hyrule Warriors and SS I have been leaning towards the belief that Nintendo is now pushing for Ganon to be seen as more of an entity than a man and Ganondorf as an avatar, with the monster taking the form of a man rather than the man becoming the monster.

Wind Waker was the only game where Ganondorf seemed somewhat human. His appearance in that game is rather contradictory compared to everything before and after. So I imagine Nintendo are conveniently forgetting they did Ganondorf that way in favour of the more inhuman TP and HW versions.

Suckward Sword was the game that started it all off by adding to the lore that the Demon King, known then as Demise, fell to the sword wielded by Link. He then vows that his future incarnation will forever follow those with the Spirit of the Hero and the Blood of the Goddess.

There was a period of time where it was uncertain whether this reincarnation was literal or not or if it applies to every villain in the series. However I always took it to be a more literal reincarnation as Demise was designed specifically to resemble Ganondorf. Now it is much more clear that I was thinking along the right lines there and a literal reincarnation was exactly what was intended. Apparently this is clearer in the Japanese games and many inconsistencies and confusion would be cleared up if the localization team didn't pervert the meanings of certain things, but there we go. One of our dear members and friend of the Fokkas would be able to tell us in the Japanese where it was are clear but now even the literal reincarnation is pretty much confirmed in even the English localization as well. We see in BoTW that the game refers to Ganon as the ancient enemy of Hylia and this makes it pretty clear that Demise and Ganon are one and the same.

We then have Hyrule Warriors where The Gerudo form of Ganondorf appears, but upon his victory and observing his animation for that we always see a looking corporeal form of Ganon in the background. It is as though the shadow is the true form and the Human shape is more of an avatar for this entity. I think many of us noticed that the glowing eyed corporeal form is stikingly similar to that of the Calamity swarming Hyrule Castle as seen in Breath of The Wild.

In BoTW, the idea that Ganondorf is more of an avatar of the Demon King is reinforced even further by the words of Urbosa, the Gerudo champion stating that Ganon once 'took the form' of a Gerudo.

Anyway what do you think about all this. Do you like the direction they are going with Ganon/dorf or would you rather they had done it a different way?

 

[Jamie]

He then vows that his future incarnation will forever follow those with the Blood of the Hero andthe Spirit of the Goddess.

The Spirit of the Hero and the Blood of the Goddess you mean.

I agree though. Ganon is the embodiment of Demise's hatred. Demise is technically still alive; he's just sealed. Ganondorf in OoT(and by extention, Wind Waker and Twilight Princess) was essentially given the power of Demise's hatred, but he was also a Gerudo with his own motivations. He grew up as a baby and had Demise's hatred well up within him. This was the first incarnation of Demise's hatred it seems. After Ganondorf turned into Ganon, he lost all that was human about him and seemingly only had the hatred remaining, or at least it would appear that way in the following games in the timeline. In TWW his powers had been sealed so it makes sense that he was reverted into Ganondorf. His following incarnations he was always purely Ganon.

Why Ganondorf never went into beast mode in WW is a mystery to me, but perhaps he was trying to retain his humanity.

 

[Moblinking5000]

ALttP says that he was born as a man, and we see his rise to power in OoT confirming this.

And in the JP version of BotW, Urbosa actually outright says that Calamity Ganon was born as a Gerudo, rather than saying he took the form of one.

https://www.reddit.com/r/truezelda/comments/6040t1/urbosas_speech_and_the_importance_of_translators/

 

[Dio]

ALttP says that he was born as a man, and we see his rise to power in OoT confirming this.

And in the JP version of BotW, Urbosa actually outright says that Calamity Ganon was born as a Gerudo, rather than saying he took the form of one.

https://www.reddit.com/r/truezelda/comments/6040t1/urbosas_speech_and_the_importance_of_translators/

Yes and the ancient sages forged the master sword...never heard of a retcon?

This the direction Ganon is going in now. Not the one they might have originally intended for him to go in. Bringing up ALTTP is pretty pointless because they have changed things since then. What they had in mind has changed.

 

[Jamie]

Yes and the ancient sages forged the master sword...never heard of a retcon?

This the direction Ganon is going in now. Not the one they might have originally intended for him to go in. Bringing up ALTTP is pretty pointless because they have changed things since then. What they had in mind has changed.

I don't think either contradict the overarching point. If in the JP version Urbosa says he was born a Gerudo I think that proves Ganon was born a Gerudo. But all this means is a Gerudo was born and was infused with Demise's hatred. That's why Ganondorf took the path he did. It's fair for Ganondorf in OoT to be both a Gerudo with feelings and emotions and also have Demise's hatred within him which is fully released when he becomes Ganon.

 

[Moblinking5000]

Yes and the ancient sages forged the master sword...never heard of a retcon?

This the direction Ganon is going in now. Not the one they might have originally intended for him to go in. Bringing up ALTTP is pretty pointless because they have changed things since then. What they had in mind has changed.

The Ancient Sages creating the MS hasn't necessarily been retconned; if you look in the Sealed Temple, you can see the Medallions , implying that maybe the sages were around to help Hylia create the Goddess Sword, which becomes the MS.

And how do you explain Urbosa's statement in the Japanese version?

Also, HW isn't even canon.

Also, Jamie, Ganondorf wasn't just INFUSED with Demise's hatred... He seems to be the incarnation of Demise's hatred. Demise's red hair was specifically chosen because of his connection to Ganondorf according to HH. Demise's curse seems to be the reason why Ganon was even born in the first place.

 

[Spirit]

They do seem to be pushing towards Ganon being a mindless beast or force of nature.

I like the idea of the man being so corrupted by power that he becomes and inhuman beast.

But i do like the change of pace where he is a pure force of nature like in BotW.

The problem with BotW's version is that there's no future in a force of nature. It has malice intention but no reason for it, that lack of reasoning/characterisation wont get the character very far other than a one dimensional plot device.

Whereas Ganondorf as a man has reasoning behind his actions and we've seen both in TP and WW how he can change and grow. Calamity Ganon and thus a less human Ganon in possible future installments will be... lacking?

But yeah, it does seem like Nintendo wants Ganon to be less of a character and more of an avatar/plot point

 

[Moblinking5000]

They do seem to be pushing towards Ganon being a mindless beast or force of nature.

I like the idea of the man being so corrupted by power that he becomes and inhuman beast.

But i do like the change of pace where he is a pure force of nature like in BotW

Who says these are mutually exclusive?

On the DT, for example, Ganon starts out as a man. Then in ALttP, he loses his Gerudo shape, but retains his intelligence and personality, then when he's revived by Twinrova in OoX, he's reduced to being a mindless beast in that timeline.

And even in BotW, where he's at his most inhuman ever, Urbosa says that he was originally a Gerudo man.

Point is, Ganondorf beginning his life as human doesn't mean that he can't become a force of nature, as he does on the DT and even more so in BotW(which I think is on the DT, making it an even further degeneration)

 

[Azure Sage]

During the final battle, Zelda states that Ganon has given up on reincarnation, which in my understanding, shows that he's stopped trying to be Ganondorf because it wasn't working for him. He couldn't win as Ganondorf, so he became a "pure force of nature" as @Spirit put it instead. He's changing his plans. This shows that he's still growing as a villain.

I think that the battle 10,000 years prior to BotW's story is when this happened. He became a pure force of evil to fight the Hero and the Princess, but because of the Guardians and Divine Beasts, he still failed. But this change in him is probably what led to him becoming known as Calamity Ganon; he stopped trying to reincarnate and became a Calamity instead.

Honestly, I think this change is what brought him as close to victory as he's ever gotten. When he revived, he saw that they were once again using the Guardians and Divine Beasts. By then he'd probably already figured out how to overcome them. And when he hijacked them and turned the tide, he came extremely close to killing Link. His plan to change into a Calamity instead of reincarnate was probably beneficial for him.

I think it's safe to assume that BotW is most "recent" on the timeline. 10,000 years prior to it is a Hero and Princess we know nothing about, other than the fact that they fought alongside the Divine Beasts and Guardians the Sheikah of the time built for them. So we can assume that the 10,000 years prior is still quite a long time after the current most "recent" on the timeline. So it's probably also safe to assume that the change to Calamity was the 10,000 years prior to BotW.

Now that all the fluff is out of the way, I have to say I really like this change. Like I said, it shows growth in Ganon as a villain, and it also fits in with the change in the series that BotW itself represents. We don't know if this change to a Calamity is permanent or not, but if it is, that speaks to Ganon's commitment.

 

[Jamie]

The Ancient Sages creating the MS hasn't necessarily been retconned; if you look in the Sealed Temple, you can see the Medallions , implying that maybe the sages were around to help Hylia create the Goddess Sword, which becomes the MS.

And how do you explain Urbosa's statement in the Japanese version?

Also, HW isn't even canon.

Also, Jamie, Ganondorf wasn't just INFUSED with Demise's hatred... He seems to be the incarnation of Demise's hatred. Demise's red hair was specifically chosen because of his connection to Ganondorf according to HH. Demise's curse seems to be the reason why Ganon was even born in the first place.

A Gerudo male is always born every 100 years. Therefore, a Gerudo male would have been born at the same time as Ganondorf regardless of Demise's hatred. All Gerudos have red hair, too.

During the final battle, Zelda states that Ganon has given up on reincarnation, which in my understanding, shows that he's stopped trying to be Ganondorf because it wasn't working for him. He couldn't win as Ganondorf, so he became a "pure force of nature" as @Spirit put it instead. He's changing his plans. This shows that he's still growing as a villain.

I think that the battle 10,000 years prior to BotW's story is when this happened. He became a pure force of evil to fight the Hero and the Princess, but because of the Guardians and Divine Beasts, he still failed. But this change in him is probably what led to him becoming known as Calamity Ganon; he stopped trying to reincarnate and became a Calamity instead.

Honestly, I think this change is what brought him as close to victory as he's ever gotten. When he revived, he saw that they were once again using the Guardians and Divine Beasts. By then he'd probably already figured out how to overcome them. And when he hijacked them and turned the tide, he came extremely close to killing Link. His plan to change into a Calamity instead of reincarnate was probably beneficial for him.

I think it's safe to assume that BotW is most "recent" on the timeline. 10,000 years prior to it is a Hero and Princess we know nothing about, other than the fact that they fought alongside the Divine Beasts and Guardians the Sheikah of the time built for them. So we can assume that the 10,000 years prior is still quite a long time after the current most "recent" on the timeline. So it's probably also safe to assume that the change to Calamity was the 10,000 years prior to BotW.

Now that all the fluff is out of the way, I have to say I really like this change. Like I said, it shows growth in Ganon as a villain, and it also fits in with the change in the series that BotW itself represents. We don't know if this change to a Calamity is permanent or not, but if it is, that speaks to Ganon's commitment.

I was under the impression that Ganon was literally defeated forever. I believe Zelda said something that implied Ganon is only so powerful because he gave up on reincarnation, which made me think he had to set some of his power aside to prepare for the worst case scenario.

 

[Fraxinus]

I have not encountered the dialogue with Urbosa, but Urbosa was born in a time period where all she knew of Ganon was him as the Calamity. Her perception of him as merely "taking the form of" a Gerudo is completely justified. For these people to not be familiar with how he was before becoming Calamity Ganon, I think they would struggle to comprehend that he possibly was more than just a force of evil at some point. Doesn't necessarily make it true, but that's something to note. I think it could go either way, really. He's defined differently by characters from game to game, based on their own experiences, and we can't be too sure if that's actually how or what he is or if that's just how people have grown to see him over time.

We shouldn't really be taking anything said by characters too literally because there's a chance they don't really know because Ganon's been around for so long in Hyrules history, details get lost and obscured. Some games fail to even acknowledge Ganon's existence at all, and he's sort of this invisible evil looming in the background. Most characters don't even know he's the origin of all of the misfortune (such as in ALttP) befalling Hyrule during the events of the game. Only recent titles do characters actually seem fully aware of his existence (i.e. characters in ALBW being utterly spooked by the mention of his name), where he actually had become part of Hyrule's lore to its citizens. This leads into the fact that they also fail to acknowledge any correlation between Ganon and Demise, and even Demise's existence at all. Regardless of what is the case, that demonstrates that the characters are faulty sources for information that we'd only be hearing from them.

I have several takes on the whole thing because it's confusing as hell, but I had always sort of viewed the whole Demise thing as a concept of sin and temptation in the Hyrulean mythology, and Ganondorf just fell for it further than most, to the point where he endangered his very state of being. With this idea, it would paint him more as an agent of Demise's will rather than a literal incarnation of him, though. However, there could be more parallels made suggesting that he's basically Hyrule's anti-christ, and the process of him becoming that is what we see.

There's a whole other issue, though. We don't know much about Ganondorf. For what he actually is on this front, would be hard to determine, since there are too many unknowns. We'd have to break down his background entirely, and we actually don't know much other than that he was a Gerudo king.

It kind of comes down to one of those nature vs. nurture conflicts; we don't know how much of his character is linked to one or the other. And which aspect of that is what actually triggered his fate as a reincarnation of--or an agent of--Demise. Nature would include him by himself and how he thinks on his own. Putting his upbringing into account (nurture), would he have desired power to the degree he did if he weren't born into a position of power? What about the fact that all of his subjects were women who conformed to his will? These are factors, but we really don't know how much weight they have. I think the big one that gets overlooked is Twinrova, though. We actually have no idea if they did or did not influence him in some way. They have the ability to manipulate people, and the most dangerous kind of manipulation is the kind where you think you're acting on your own accord.

Going back to what Urbosa said, though. We don't even know if he was born normally. Maybe he really is a literal incarnation that manifested itself as a Gerudo male. Maybe that was why we was parented by Twinrova. Maybe they were meant to push him toward his destiny and that is why they enabled him the way they did. We don't know. We don't know if they served him or if he served them. It's really hard to say, given how they are and what kind of magic in which they specialize.

On another facet, it may just be some sort of internal conflict thing. A human embodiment of Demise's Hatred, but as a human, still has his own will and desires. As that Hate builds, however, he loses grasp of those things and is unable to contain it. Both sides of him are his own, though; they're not like a foreign body inserted into him or anything. But both sides of him sort of fight for dominance over his actions. TWW Ganondorf mentally and emotionally lived fixed on the past, so it would make sense that he clung to the human side (the before, the past version) of himself, moreso than the Hatred.

So the difference between Ganon and Ganondorf is that Ganon shed his humanity, but beyond on just a physical level. Ganon has different desires from Ganondorf, and is fueled mostly by his hatred. Does this suggest that only Ganon is the work of Demise, where Ganondorf is just in the progress of becoming that? And is he independent in his actions or is he unknowingly following some script of fate? I think something worth noting though, is the fact that it was the Triforce of Power acting through him that caused him to originally transform into Ganon. That's something exclusive to himself, and there's some underlying thing with that that should be addressed but I'm not too sure where to go with it. I think it's also heavily implied (especially in Twilight Princess) that the Triforce of Power sort of grants some sort of pseudo-immortality to its holder, and that's what ensured Ganondorf's return several times over. But after he degrades beyond that, and becomes Ganon and may or may not be stripped of the Triforce of Power, what's bringing him back then? Demise's Hatred, right?

BotW Ganon is hard to work with. There're some conflicting statements in the game of whether or not he has a will of his own at all, and while it makes most sense that he does not, since he's sort of portrayed as a force of nature, the fact that certain actions of his imply forethoughts and planning makes it really difficult to pinpoint. Plus, Zelda asserting that Dark Beast Ganon is just his Malice suggests that Calamity Ganon, was not--that he was more than just Malice. Which raises so many questions; who knows what that means.

I think it's too early to say exactly which is the dominant role, Ganon or Ganondorf, since really the entire reason this is a question at all is because of the introduction of Demise. We'd need to wait on more titles to actually acknowledge him as such, and it's not something I look forward to, just because Skyward Sword's backstory was so lazy. It kind of taints everything else. I still see Ganon and Ganondorf on the same level as one another; it's just the question of how much this whole Demise thing is involved with each that makes it annoying. I'd say Ganondorf is just Ganondorf, and if he's an avatar of Ganon when under the influence of Hatred, then Ganon is an avatar of Demise.

 

[Spirit]

Who says these are mutually exclusive?

On the DT, for example, Ganon starts out as a man. Then in ALttP, he loses his Gerudo shape, but retains his intelligence and personality, then when he's revived by Twinrova in OoX, he's reduced to being a mindless beast in that timeline.

And even in BotW, where he's at his most inhuman ever, Urbosa says that he was originally a Gerudo man.

Point is, Ganondorf beginning his life as human doesn't mean that he can't become a force of nature, as he does on the DT and even more so in BotW(which I think is on the DT, making it an even further degeneration)

Theyre not mutually exclusive. Youre right that Ganon started out as a creature with intelligence in the first few games Nintendo made. And that was perfectly fine. He can have as much intelligence both as a human and a beast, but that wasn't my point.

@Deus's point is that in recent games like SS and BotW, Ganon has been portrayed as something less than a character with reason, intention and intelligence. In SS his backstory is arguably downgraded to him being a base entity that is just hate incarnate, and in BotW he seems to be exactly that; a creature with little intention other than to destroy because that's just what it does as an entity of pure hate.

The point wasnt that Ganon cant be smart if he is a burly monster, the point was that recently Nintendo have been making him less of a character of intention and intelligence and more of an entity that Link-needs-dead-before-it-wrecks-more-of-the-joint.

Its the current direction of Ganon's character over the most recent games in the franchise that has Deus worried. Ganon can be a creature with intelligence and has been in the past to great effect for the series, but recently, as a creature, he has been shown to have very little intelligence or intention which diminishes his character somewhat and its not a direction many people, understandably, want to see him go.

 

[Dio]

Demise is technically still alive; he's just sealed

Whatever was left of demise was said by Impa to be decaying in the MS. So there isnt anything left at all of him at all by the time Ganon/dorf comes around who is his literal reincarnation.

I don't think either contradict the overarching point. If in the JP version Urbosa says he was born a Gerudo I think that proves Ganon was born a Gerudo. But all this means is a Gerudo was born and was infused with Demise's hatred. That's why Ganondorf took the path he did. It's fair for Ganondorf in OoT to be both a Gerudo with feelings and emotions and also have Demise's hatred within him which is fully released when he becomes Ganon.

I don't think Ganondorf is infused with hatred. He is Demise and is the embodiment of hatred anyway. Demise was not concieved until SS so I don't doubt originally they intended for Ganondorf to have feelings and emotions which is why we see a different personality to him in WW, however I believe now Nintendo are glossing over that and making it more official that Ganondorf is just a form Ganon took.

A Gerudo male is always born every 100 years. Therefore, a Gerudo male would have been born at the same time as Ganondorf regardless of Demise's hatred. All Gerudos have red hair, too.

A gerudo male is only born once in 100 years but I don't see why one would necessarily have to be. Regardless, Ganon would have taken the form/been born as a Gerudo at the right moment.

 

[Jamie]

Whatever was left of demise was said by Impa to be decaying in the MS. So there isnt anything left at all of him at all by the time Ganon/dorf comes around who is his literal reincarnation.



I don't think Ganondorf is infused with hatred. He is Demise and is the embodiment of hatred anyway. Demise was not concieved until SS so I don't doubt originally they intended for Ganondorf to have feelings and emotions which is why we see a different personality to him in WW, however I believe now Nintendo are glossing over that and making it more official that Ganondorf is just a form Ganon took.



A gerudo male is only born once in 100 years but I don't see why one would necessarily have to be. Regardless, Ganon would have taken the form/been born as a Gerudo at the right moment.

Ganon isn't Demise's reincarnation. He is a reincarnation of Demise's hatred. There is a difference imo.

 

[DuelMark]

I see Urbosa's comment more like they don't have enough information, or information was altered to make the future Gerudo feel less guilty about Ganon's birth.