(OLD) Contest Unfair Infractions Here

[Jirohnagi]

Finding it offensive and finding it "creepy and pedophillic" are the exact same thing. The latter is just a more condemning way to say "offensive". But it doesn't make it any more okay.
Exactly how other people think something is offensive doesn't make it any more okay to be "offended" on someone else's behalf and demand punishment. We cannot take accusations as proof of guilt. It's ridiculous. Pedophilia is a particularly charged topic that people feel strongly about. Too often it's used as a simply buzz word to label something as bad that cannot be questioned. Just like terrorism. Once labeled a terrorist, any explantion as to how it isn't terrorism just gets that person accused of supporting terrorism. Same thing happens with pedophilia. The accusation itself is used as the proof and any protesting against it gets labeled as supporting hurting kids (even though that's an unreasonable leap of logic).

Also note again the capacity to lie about, or not disclose, age here. Not saying that it's being lied about now, but it is something that isn't listed and something we cannot know for sure about anyone. And it's something we can't set a precedent on. By pushing this, you're expecting people to simply know information that was stated in passing that isn't explicitly listed in a user's information. And punish them for not knowing that. Not to say that it wasn't known here, but doing this sets that precedent. And on the same hand, we can't just force people to list their real ages if they don't want to. This is not an issue that is going to end well. As far as the legal liability Djinn mentioned (which he greatly exaggerated, if it was that bad most of the internet would have been sued out of existence), the site's obligation is actually to only respond to direct complaints from the individual or their parent/guardian. No one else. Someone else feeling offended on their behalf doesn't create legal problem for us. But it does create a logistical problem if we pander to this proxy offense. It just encourages more of it and it's usually harmful.

If the targeted person doesn't have a problem, then that's the end of it, no matter how uncomfortable anyone else is. No matter in what manner it makes them uncomfortable. It's none of their business.

So basically you are saying it's alright for me to make racist comments about americans or germans or jews or anyone then?

Not to re-ignite this, but i don't care to see comments about people wanting to bang a 13 year old on this site hell i don't want to see any comment of that type on this site, it doesn't belong here at all, people defending it shouldn't be, you are just saying "yea it's fine we've always done this type of thing so we can get away with it". Face it you DID get away with it, then people did notice, Yes most of us have nothing to contribute to this but the problem isn't so much that Malon was fine with the comment but that the comment even exists, since when was ZD a place where such a comment could exist?



TLR Rules state no sex commentary or jokes outside of MD, Loz broke the rules he got a pointless warning, why this was even brought here is a moot point, he claims to have done nothing wrong but end of the day it's mods judgement.

And i will say this, saying people should just grow and deal with it, allowed idiots like trump and hitler into power, it also has lead to people not believing rape victims as well. Kindly think about wording.

That is honestly the last word for my argument, i don't care whose in the right or wrong, i just want both sides to actually consider their wording.

 

[A Link In Time]

In general, I'd like to see people trying to have a conversation with the moderator that issued them an infraction or warning or at least some forum staff member before resorting to posting in this thread. I'm not directing this towards Lozjam specifically, but with the relatively little infractions and warnings that do get given out under the current staff, it's a bit disheartening to see this thread pop up often.

The last time I received any type of warning from a staff member was from Axle for posting a picture of Bill Clinton in response to Mitt Romney's "binders full of women" comment in the 2012 presidential elections thread. We had a bit of a back forth about it being a joke vs. it being offensive, but ultimately I was able to have the warning reversed by another staff member. If Axle was willing to have a talk, I'm sure the current staff will be open to a discussion about why a specific warning or infraction was given.

I know that it can be real upsetting for a staff member to think about potential backlash in this thread before writing an infraction or warning. This might seem a bit hypocritical coming from me, but the reason I frequently posted here over the summer is because I was aware of most of the details about what happened with DM since I talk to him regularly. I'm pretty sure that the outcry over one of the infractions Vergo gave Pancake led to his resignation from being a mod. During my own time on the staff, I recall a time when I gave infractions for two people who were having an inappropriate argument in the Shoutbox. Another staff member then reversed the infractions, and there was a bit of a heated back-and-forth about whether to keep the infractions in the staff chat. In the end, we agreed to give the members the infractions.

I'm therefore absolutely positive that the current staff did their best in trying to reach a consensus before any action was taken against Lozjam. The first response may not always match up to the final consequence as it's hard to find a time when all or almost all the staff are online to discuss a given situation. Vee simply wanted to contain things initially to prevent the flirtatious thread from getting out of hand. This warning is a reasonable final course of action to take for the legal sake of the forum, as Djinn mentioned earlier. I just hope for the future that if we say this current staff is the best ZD has ever had that this thread doesn't blow up over every warning and infraction. It is much easier to resolve things through a one-on-one conversation than to let emotions run rampant in a public environment.

 

[Emma]

So basically you are saying it's alright for me to make racist comments about americans or germans or jews or anyone then?

Not to re-ignite this, but i don't care to see comments about people wanting to bang a 13 year old on this site hell i don't want to see any comment of that type on this site, it doesn't belong here at all, people defending it shouldn't be, you are just saying "yea it's fine we've always done this type of thing so we can get away with it". Face it you DID get away with it, then people did notice, Yes most of us have nothing to contribute to this but the problem isn't so much that Malon was fine with the comment but that the comment even exists, since when was ZD a place where such a comment could exist?



TLR Rules state no sex commentary or jokes outside of MD, Loz broke the rules he got a pointless warning, why this was even brought here is a moot point, he claims to have done nothing wrong but end of the day it's mods judgement.

And i will say this, saying people should just grow and deal with it, allowed idiots like trump and hitler into power, it also has lead to people not believing rape victims as well. Kindly think about wording.

That is honestly the last word for my argument, i don't care whose in the right or wrong, i just want both sides to actually consider their wording.

As I said, it doesn't matter how something makes you uncomfortable, your discomfort doesn't give you the right to say people shouldn't say it. And yes, people should be able to make racist comments. That doesn't mean you have to like them. Saying something racist in general is a whole other issue from directly insulting someone, in which case it is only the business of the person being insulted and no one else.

In general, I'd like to see people trying to have a conversation with the moderator that issued them an infraction or warning or at least some forum staff member before resorting to posting in this thread. I'm not directing this towards Lozjam specifically, but with the relatively little infractions and warnings that do get given out under the current staff, it's a bit disheartening to see this thread pop up often.

The last time I received any type of warning from a staff member was from Axle for posting a picture of Bill Clinton in response to Mitt Romney's "binders full of women" comment in the 2012 presidential elections thread. We had a bit of a back forth about it being a joke vs. it being offensive, but ultimately I was able to have the warning reversed by another staff member. If Axle was willing to have a talk, I'm sure the current staff will be open to a discussion about why a specific warning or infraction was given.

I know that it can be real upsetting for a staff member to think about potential backlash in this thread before writing an infraction or warning. This might seem a bit hypocritical coming from me, but the reason I frequently posted here over the summer is because I was aware of most of the details about what happened with DM since I talk to him regularly. I'm pretty sure that the outcry over one of the infractions Vergo gave Pancake led to his resignation from being a mod. During my own time on the staff, I recall a time when I gave infractions for two people who were having an inappropriate argument in the Shoutbox. Another staff member then reversed the infractions, and there was a bit of a heated back-and-forth about whether to keep the infractions in the staff chat. In the end, we agreed to give the members the infractions.

I'm therefore absolutely positive that the current staff did their best in trying to reach a consensus before any action was taken against Lozjam. The first response may not always match up to the final consequence as it's hard to find a time when all or almost all the staff are online to discuss a given situation. Vee simply wanted to contain things initially to prevent the flirtatious thread from getting out of hand. This warning is a reasonable final course of action to take for the legal sake of the forum, as Djinn mentioned earlier. I just hope for the future that if we say this current staff is the best ZD has ever had that this thread doesn't blow up over every warning and infraction. It is much easier to resolve things through a one-on-one conversation than to let emotions run rampant in a public environment.

Originally I made this thread explicitly because the staff (at the time) were completely ignoring ANY private complaining about issues with infractions and warnings. They'd just ignore it and pretend the complaint never happened, often not even addressing the person complaining about it even said anything. So in that case "taking it private first" would have never accomplished anything. And if you remember, if they bothered to respond at all, it'd often be days before the first response came. And sometimes an issue needs to be discussed immediately. The point of making this thread was to take the issue public so they staff couldn't just sweep the issue under the rug and pretend the situation didn't exist. I do think our current staff are more mature than that, but I still think this thread is important for making people aware of issues and its transparency helps maintain mod accountability, which is important for helping the mods themselves remain objective.

Even if something might have been premature, I don't think anyone else really has the right to say they shouldn't complain about feeling mistreated. If they think they have been, they should be able to voice it.

 

[Jirohnagi]

As I said, it doesn't matter how something makes you uncomfortable, your discomfort doesn't give you the right to say people shouldn't say it. And yes, people should be able to make racist comments. That doesn't mean you have to like them. Saying something racist in general is a whole other issue from directly insulting someone, in which case it is only the business of the person being insulted and no one else.


Originally I made this thread explicitly because the staff (at the time) were completely ignoring ANY private complaining about issues with infractions and warnings. They'd just ignore it and pretend the complaint never happened, often not even addressing the person complaining about it even said anything. So in that case "taking it private first" would have never accomplished anything. And if you remember, if they bothered to respond at all, it'd often be days before the first response came. And sometimes an issue needs to be discussed immediately. The point of making this thread was to take the issue public so they staff couldn't just sweep the issue under the rug and pretend the situation didn't exist. I do think our current staff are more mature than that, but I still think this thread is important for making people aware of issues and its transparency helps maintain mod accountability, which is important for helping the mods themselves remain objective.

Even if something might have been premature, I don't think anyone else really has the right to say they shouldn't complain about feeling mistreated. If they think they have been, they should be able to voice it.

But according to you they don't have the right to voice it, they should shut up and put up with it, or in your terms, grow up and deal with it.

 

[Emma]

But according to you they don't have the right to voice it, they should shut up and put up with it, or in your terms, grow up and deal with it.

That isn't even remotely what I said. You're confusing two completely different things. You're equating my saying that OTHER PEOPLE shouldn't have a say in complaining about being offended on behalf of someone else, even if that someone else was never offended, with people complaining about they themselves have been directly mistreated. Those are entirely different.

 

[Jirohnagi]

That isn't even remotely what I said. You're confusing two completely different things. You're equating my saying that OTHER PEOPLE shouldn't have a say in complaining about being offended on behalf of someone else, even if that someone else was never offended, with people complaining about they themselves have been directly mistreated. Those are entirely different.

Ahh thanks for clearing it up more so, sometimes i feel like you go off on thirty tangents at once so i do get a bit confused. But i do feel like the argument that you've presented can be aimed at those doing the complaining directly just by saying "no one else is complaining deal with it"

 

[Mipha]

Ahh thanks for clearing it up more so, sometimes i feel like you go off on thirty tangents at once so i do get a bit confused. But i do feel like the argument that you've presented can be aimed at those doing the complaining directly just by saying "no one else is complaining deal with it"

The only problem is everyone seems to be complaining.

 

[Jamie]

The fact that Lozjam only got warned actually disgusts me. This isn't about being offended. Lozjam said, and this is verbatim,

"Even though you're a kid, I'd still bang you."

Are we ****ing promoting pedophilia on this site? You can make sexual advances to a 12 year old and that's A-Okay? Put this in the contexts of real life:

12 year old: How do you flirt?
Full grown man: Even though you're a kid, I'd still bang you. Haha, jokes!

I bet you no one would ever let their kid NEAR that person ever again. Now, I'm not saying Lozjam is a pedophile, as he was joking, but to make sexual advances to a goddamn 12 year old and then see so many people on this site justify it. For ****s sake, I am absolutely disgusted.

Everyone tells me "these staff are the best staff ever!!!" For what reason? I personally see very little being managed, so is it their lack of action that makes them the best staff ever? I like all of the current staff, but honestly, this should have been more than a warning, and it's insane that Lozjam and others are trying to defend this.

 

[Jamie]

That isn't even remotely what I said. You're confusing two completely different things. You're equating my saying that OTHER PEOPLE shouldn't have a say in complaining about being offended on behalf of someone else, even if that someone else was never offended, with people complaining about they themselves have been directly mistreated. Those are entirely different.

In what world is it okay to make sexual advances to a 12 year old as long as the 12 year old is okay with this? Again, apply it to real life. That's ****ing absurd. "Oh, the 12 year old said it was cool, so that means I can hit on 'em". Uhh, no. They are ****ing 12.

 

[Emma]

The fact that Lozjam only got warned actually disgusts me. This isn't about being offended. Lozjam said, and this is verbatim,

"Even though you're a kid, I'd still bang you."

Are we ****ing promoting pedophilia on this site? You can make sexual advances to a 12 year old and that's A-Okay? Put this in the contexts of real life:

12 year old: How do you flirt?
Full grown man: Even though you're a kid, I'd still bang you. Haha, jokes!

I bet you no one would ever let their kid NEAR that person ever again. Now, I'm not saying Lozjam is a pedophile, as he was joking, but to make sexual advances to a goddamn 12 year old and then see so many people on this site justify it. For ****s sake, I am absolutely disgusted.

Everyone tells me "these staff are the best staff ever!!!" For what reason? I personally see very little being managed, so is it their lack of action that makes them the best staff ever? I like all of the current staff, but honestly, this should have been more than a warning, and it's insane that Lozjam and others are trying to defend this.

In what world is it okay to make sexual advances to a 12 year old as long as the 12 year old is okay with this? Again, apply it to real life. That's ****ing absurd. "Oh, the 12 year old said it was cool, so that means I can hit on 'em". Uhh, no. They are ****ing 12.

As has been said, several times already, it absolutely does not matter in what way you feel offended by something that wasn't directed at you. Preaching about the evils of pedophilia doesn't change that. Trying to shame people for "how dare you defend pedophilia" doesn't strengthen your argument, it just makes it look absurd and contrived. This isn't pedophilia. It was a low brow and ill-thought out joke. That didn't even bother the target. It isn't some moralistic crusade. Labeling it as something deeply hated doesn't make misplaced complaints any less invalid. It is emotionally manipulative. You're trying to manipulate how people feel to get a certain outcome.

 

[Jamie]

As has been said, several times already, it absolutely does not matter in what way you feel offended by something that wasn't directed at you. Preaching about the evils of pedophilia doesn't change that. Trying to shame people for "how dare you defend pedophilia" doesn't strengthen your argument, it just makes it look absurd and contrived. This isn't pedophilia. It was a low brow and ill-thought out joke. That didn't even bother the target. It isn't some moralistic crusade. Labeling it as something deeply hated doesn't make misplaced complaints any less invalid. It is emotionally manipulative. You're trying to manipulate how people feel to get a certain outcome.

They are 12 years old, and you're trying to say "well as long as they weren't offended..."
Okay, well can I post porn on here as long as someone doesn't get offended? Can I say a bunch of racist ****? What if I'm literally hitting on a 12 year old, and I say something like "Oh, I want you so bad", and it doesn't offend them. That's okay, too? Where do we draw the line? At what point is "the target wasn't offended" no longer an actual argument against a warning?

 

[Emma]

They are 12 years old, and you're trying to say "well as long as they weren't offended..."
Okay, well can I post porn on here as long as someone doesn't get offended? Can I say a bunch of racist ****? What if I'm literally hitting on a 12 year old, and I say something like "Oh, I want you so bad", and it doesn't offend them. That's okay, too? Where do we draw the line? At what point is "the target wasn't offended" no longer an actual argument against a warning?

Porn is entirely different and you know it. As for everything else, yes, people should be able to say racist things. You don't have to like what they say, but you have no right to tell them they can't say it. And yes, if the target was not offended, it absolutely is no one else's business. You have no right to tell someone that they SHOULD be offended by something. If you really care so much about children, you shouldn't go around telling them why something should offend them. If that conversation is ever going to happen, it's the place of the parents, no one else. Some stranger on the internet should just mind their own business. By butting in and trying to shove your own views on someone else trying to convince them what they should be offended about, you can cause them great harm. Disproving the whole" what about the children?!" reasoning you're going on about.


Anyway, this isn't helping anything. This thread is supposed to be for talking about unfair treatment by staff. It is not here for people to gang up on a member demanding that they be punished. If you want someone punished, file a report or write a PM. Otherwise, it doesn't really have a place here.

 

[Jamie]

@Matt:
So I can say, to a 12 year old "Oh, I want you so bad, I want to shove my..." etc, and as long as they aren't offended (remember, they are 12 years old), that is A-Okay?

I know people who were molested at 12-13 years old and they were "okay" with it because they didn't really get that it was that wrong. But oh, if they are okay, that's fine. They are 12 years old, that's good enough.

 

[Jirohnagi]

Porn is entirely different and you know it. As for everything else, yes, people should be able to say racist things. You don't have to like what they say, but you have no right to tell them they can't say it. And yes, if the target was not offended, it absolutely is no one else's business. You have no right to tell someone that they SHOULD be offended by something. If you really care so much about children, you shouldn't go around telling them why something should offend them. If that conversation is ever going to happen, it's the place of the parents, no one else. Some stranger on the internet should just mind their own business. By butting in and trying to shove your own views on someone else trying to convince them what they should be offended about, you can cause them great harm. Disproving the whole" what about the children?!" reasoning you're going on about.


Anyway, this isn't helping anything. This thread is supposed to be for talking about unfair treatment by staff. It is not here for people to gang up on a member demanding that they be punished. If you want someone punished, file a report or write a PM. Otherwise, it doesn't really have a place here.

Didn't stop you diving in when DM got an infraction.

I wanna point out something just because i don't have the right to say "lozjam you can't post that" doesn't give them the right to post it. You seem to think the freedom of speech swings one way.

 

[Emma]

@Matt:
So I can say, to a 12 year old "Oh, I want you so bad, I want to shove my..." etc, and as long as they aren't offended (remember, they are 12 years old), that is A-Okay?

I know people who were molested at 12-13 years old and they were "okay" with it because they didn't really get that it was that wrong. But oh, if they are okay, that's fine. They are 12 years old, that's good enough.

This isn't even remotely the same thing. Off color jokes are no where near the same thing as actual physical molestation. Equating them as such is, as I said, nothing short of emotional manipulation. Trying to shame and guilt people into siding with you on an issue. We can't keep inflating this into a bigger issue than it actually is.

Didn't stop you diving in when DM got an infraction.

I wanna point out something just because i don't have the right to say "lozjam you can't post that" doesn't give them the right to post it. You seem to think the freedom of speech swings one way.

I was asked to do that by DM, because he was afraid of the treatment he'd get if he did it himself. Being requested to do it is very different from making it your business to complain about someone's problem that doesn't exist.