Hard = Hate?

[AncientPoe]

So, I was just curious about something. Sometimes, I see or hear people talking about Zelda dungeons or bosses and they will mention that something was their least favorite aspect of a game because it was hard for them. Conversely, I've heard people say the ones that kicked their butts were also their favorites, because being so difficult made that part of the game stick with them long after they'd finished it. I'd like to hear people's opinions on the matter. If you can, describe your most difficult experiences with Zelda games, and try to dissect whether the difficulty was enjoyable or not.

 

[Iridescence]

I generally dislike hard games but I like hard dungeons. I guess it depends what exactly is difficult.

If the level design is complex, the puzzles are creative and you need to really put your thinking cap on to solve everything, then it's fun. But if the difficulty just comes from dying and repeating the same area 10 times, then no, that's bad.

Jabu-Jabu's Belly and Water Temple are too examples. They were really frustrating to play first time, but after I beat them, I felt immensely rewarded. Subsequent playthroughs get even more fun because it's like you're already introduced to it - now you can learn the inner-workings of the dungeon and why it was so hard for you previously.

 

[Mamono101]

I generally dislike hard games but I like hard dungeons. I guess it depends what exactly is difficult.

If the level design is complex, the puzzles are creative and you need to really put your thinking cap on to solve everything, then it's fun. But if the difficulty just comes from dying and repeating the same area 10 times, then no, that's bad.

Jabu-Jabu's Belly and Water Temple are too examples. They were really frustrating to play first time, but after I beat them, I felt immensely rewarded. Subsequent playthroughs get even more fun because it's like you're already introduced to it - now you can learn the inner-workings of the dungeon and why it was so hard for you previously.

I agree with you completely. There's nothing more frustrating than having to attempt completing the same section of a game over and over again because of constant game overs. I think the only genre of gaming in which I can make an allowance for this, is platformers. The puzzles themselves should be complex and challenging, but at the same time the way to solve the puzzles should be intuitive to the game.

As far as puzzles go in the series, I think the 2D Zelda games have some of the best ones to date, requiring outside the box thinking for a lot of their solutions. In the 3D incarnations, Majora's Masks' temples have a lot of the more interesting level designs and puzzles to solve. I especially enjoy Stone Tower Temple and The Great Bay Temple for having what I consider to be relatively complex puzzles that require a lot more than hitting a switch to reveal a chest so you can get a small key.

 

[DarkestLink]

People say they want to be challenged, but when they are challenged they say it's cheap and "not real challenge" even if luck is minimal or nonexistent in the challenge.

I say this as a casual gamer: I see a lot of casual gamers in the online gaming community as a whole who want to pretend and believe they are hardcore. They want to be "challenged" until the game actually challenges them and then it's not fair. The online community is going to complain no matter what you do and are willing to go from any angle that fits their complaints.

 

[misskitten]

I'm very for the golden middle. I don't mind a challenge, but if a game feels impossible right off the bat (like AoL did), it puts me off wanting to even make a proper effort. Like Iridescence said, it's not fun having to replay something over and over again because you keep dying and have to start again from the beginning. In general, punishing difficulty is never fun for me, it lies in the word "punishing" - I like being challenged (it feels rewarding when you finally figure out that one thing you need in order to progress), but I don't like being punished.

But the complete opposite is also not fun. If it's insultingly easy, like you keep getting the solution handed to you regardless whether you asked or not, or you just don't have the option to fail (I have played games where you don't even die, you just faint and get back up again mid-fight and continue).

But for me, the thing that makes me hate overly difficult games more than overly easy games is that, when it comes right down to it, at least with the easy games, you can still play them, can still experience them. Difficult games that doesn't allow you to experience anything before you're killed, you just don't get to know what they have to offer before you feel like chucking the controller away.

 

[Spiritual Mask Salesman]

It depends on the person, if you feel challenges are fun than you might enjoy a hard boss or dungeon. If you don't like challenges your probably not going to like hard bosses and dungeons.

 

[AncientPoe]

What would people say about the next Zelda game if it asked you questions before you started in order to vary the difficulty for you instead of just flat out having 'easy' or 'hard' mode? For instance, a question that uses your answer to scale the difficulty of puzzles, and one for combat. I remember the Resident Evil games used to ask you to describe your ideal game, then it gave two hiking analogies. One about enjoying an easy stroll, the other about enjoying the challenge or tough terrain. What if there was a way to scale the difficulty of both puzzles and combat separately? Would you take advantage of that, or would you rather have just the one mode from the outset like every other Zelda title?

 

[misskitten]

What would people say about the next Zelda game if it asked you questions before you started in order to vary the difficulty for you instead of just flat out having 'easy' or 'hard' mode? For instance, a question that uses your answer to scale the difficulty of puzzles, and one for combat. I remember the Resident Evil games used to ask you to describe your ideal game, then it gave two hiking analogies. One about enjoying an easy stroll, the other about enjoying the challenge or tough terrain. What if there was a way to scale the difficulty of both puzzles and combat separately? Would you take advantage of that, or would you rather have just the one mode from the outset like every other Zelda title?

I think that would be an interesting way of going at it. I think I'd be more likely to up the difficulty of puzzles before combat, unless the combat was insultingly easy at the normal state. It would make the games even more accessible, and people could get out of them the experience they truly want.

 

[Farore's Chosen]

Hard is just fine but when creating a hard boss battle for me it has to strike that fine balance of a fun challenge but not so difficult that it'll leave me cussing up a storm and suffering cramped hands after dying for the 20th time in a row.

For dungeons its the same, I enjoy unique challenging dungeons that makes you think. I do not enjoy huge, frustrating dungeons that I will get hopelessly lost in for days or even weeks.

 

[Iridescence]

We've been having lots of difficult threads lately. And I kinda blame myself. lol

Here are some core points I mentioned on the other threads:

• Easy and hard are subjective. Some people don't consider a game hard until they have to repeat sections 5-10 times.
• For me, repeating a section more than once or twice is already too much.
• Death should happen because you were being foolish - not because you didn't press buttons in a precise specific order.
• Puzzles need to be more than just box-moving, use X item here and torch-lighting *cough cough Wind Waker*
• Backtracking puzzles are lame but hidden in plain sight puzzles that make you think outside the box are cool.
• Subtly hinting and directing the player to where they should go is way better than handholding and railroading.
• Give me the choice of going where I want to go, but design the level in a way that encourages me to go the intended path.

 

[Farore's Chosen]

You know there's nothing wrong with challenging or medium difficulty? It doesn't have to be super easy, or so hard that it'd knock Battletoads off its hardest game ever pedestal

 

[AncientPoe]

Yes that's true, but there are many stages in between pacifier and Battletoads.

On a somewhat related note, I'm hoping the new Zelda U takes a page from Phantom Hourglass' map, and lets us write on the dungeon maps. Being allowed to make little annotations and notes will encourage the non-linear problem solving present in some of the best dungeons in the franchise. The best thing about places like the Water Temple was that it's design forced you to think beyond the puzzles in a particular room to the dungeon as a whole, you had to continually think about how your actions affected the other areas. Many dungeons now have this essence of linearity, where you proceed through an offshoot ribbon of the place that brings you through and back into the main area. This sort of design has to stop.

 

[Farore's Chosen]

@AncientPoe-That's what I just said. There's nothing wrong with the inbetween

 

[TheHerbivoreWaffle]

I call the Oracle games hard games. BUT, they are both hard for different reasons. Oracle of Seasons is hard because it's action based, and usually is hard because lots of things want to kill you. Oracle of Ages is hard because it's puzzle based. It will put you into a room where you know there is a reward, but you have to figure out how to get it. Jabu Jabu's Belly is a great example of this. Both games are fun, and remarkably similar, but I like Oracle of Ages better because I think puzzles are more fun than killing things and dying. On the other hand, A Link to the Past is more like OoS, where you are often being bombarded by enemies and challenges. Even though I was screaming at my TV the entire game, I finished each dungeon incredibly satisfied because I accomplished something.

Challenge is good. But generally you like different kinds of challenge. Which is why many people might dislike something because it's hard to complete, like the Water Temple, or someone might dislike something because they keep dying, like the Sword/Shield maze.

 

[the8thark]

There is good hard and bad hard.

Good hard is more complex dungeons that take more thought and enemies that take more thought to beat.
Bad hard is just more damage or more enemies to wear you down. Also add in unavoidable damage to this list. Basically ways that are adding to the slog of the game without any new or fresh elements.