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Ghirahim, Demise, and the Dark Tribe

Joined
Apr 6, 2011
Not really. He's a servant of Demise, and therefore qualifies as a member of the Dark Tribe.

True, Ghirahim is a servant of Demise, but does mean that he is related to the Dark Tribe? I could say that Demon King Malladus has connection to Demise because of his title, his looks, and the fact that he is an evil demon. Demise is said to be the source of all of evil by Fi’s comment, so therefore every villian is part of the Dark Tribe.
This eternal being has conquered time itself. It is the source of all monsters.

This is why I am not convinced that Ghirahim is a Dark Interloper. Ghirahim is an personification of Demise's Sword, not simply a Demon Lord. The Dark Interlopers are said to be individuals who mastered powerful dark magic for their lust for power and the Triforce. They seem to be more like greedy men who banded together for an object that can grant a wish than demons serving Demise. Why would they need to master dark magic when Demise is the embodiment of that magic? Why couldn't Demise give them magic at the beginning with the basic knowledge of how to wield it since all demons come from him unless he wasn't around to do that?
Wielding powerful sorcery, they tried to establish dominion over the Sacred Realm. It was then that the goddesses ordered us three light spirits to intervene. We sealed away the great magic those individuals had mastered. You know this magic… It is the dark power you seek…the Fused Shadow

I personally believe the Dark Interlopers came from the Era of Chaos. It talks about the Sacred Realm being fought over upon after Skyward Sword, leading to the sealing of the Sacred Realm. Since the humans in Skyward Sword were never described to be greedy, it fits well with this description from the Dark Interlopers Story:
"But soon, word of the Sacred Realm spread through Hyrule, and a great battle ensued..." — Lanayru (Twilight Princess)
http://www.glitterberri.com/hyrule-historia/page-77/
The almighty power of folklore was lusted over by many, many people and there was a never ending struggle over the Triforce.

As for the Light Spirits, I found this from Glitterberri's translation of Hyrule Historia. I'm not sure if it solves anything about the Light Spirits and the Dragons.

Hyrule Castle is located in Lanayru Province in the centre of the land. The other provinces are named Faron, Eldin and Ordona after the dragons of the Era of the Goddess Hylia, and they’re protected by the Light Spirits bearing the same names.
 

JuicieJ

SHOW ME YA MOVES!
Joined
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On the midnight Spirit Train going anywhere
True, Ghirahim is a servant of Demise, but does mean that he is related to the Dark Tribe? I could say that Demon King Malladus has connection to Demise because of his title, his looks, and the fact that he is an evil demon.

That's a bit different. (And by "a bit" I mean "completely.") Malladus wasn't serving Demise, unlike Ghirahim.

Demise is said to be the source of all of evil by Fi’s comment, so therefore every villian is part of the Dark Tribe.

Source of all monsters, not source of all evil. There's a difference.

This is why I am not convinced that Ghirahim is a Dark Interloper. Ghirahim is an personification of Demise's Sword, not simply a Demon Lord. The Dark Interlopers are said to be individuals who mastered powerful dark magic for their lust for power and the Triforce. They seem to be more like greedy men who banded together for an object that can grant a wish than demons serving Demise. Why would they need to master dark magic when Demise is the embodiment of that magic? Why couldn't Demise give them magic at the beginning with the basic knowledge of how to wield it since all demons come from him unless he wasn't around to do that?

The connection is most certainly not perfect. As I pointed out, the Trident of Power wasn't seen, and neither was the Fused Shadow (although I didn't directly mention that). However, I also pointed out that it's implied that Demise attacked more than once. Fi says he appears differently in each epoch and to each person. An epoch is basically the same thing as an era. Why bring up the fact that he appears differently in each epoch if it wasn't significant? The fact that he appears to exist out of time only aids in this theory. There's more than enough to suggest a connection, even though it's not perfect. But, come on. How many connections in Nintendo's official timeline aren't perfect? With Zelda, not every last thing has to make absolute sense.

I personally believe the Dark Interlopers came from the Era of Chaos. It talks about the Sacred Realm being fought over upon after Skyward Sword, leading to the sealing of the Sacred Realm. Since the humans in Skyward Sword were never described to be greedy, it fits well with this description from the Dark Interlopers Story:

http://www.glitterberri.com/hyrule-historia/page-77/

Actually, Lanayru was talking about Hyrule in that cutscene, not the Sacred Realm that houses the Triforce, so this isn't very significant. I'm not sure where to go to prove it, but Locke can show you. He's the one I learned this from.

As for the Light Spirits, I found this from Glitterberri's translation of Hyrule Historia. I'm not sure if it solves anything about the Light Spirits and the Dragons.

This may sound biased towards my theory, but I'm thinking this is a mistranslation. One, Ordona wasn't one of the dragons shown in SS -- which further evidences my theory, as Ordona wasn't one of the Light Spirits that sealed away the "dark interlopers". Two, why the hell would there be 4 separate beings that have the same names that just so happen to protect the other ones? That doesn't make any sense at all. I know this is Zelda we're talking about, but come on. That sounds pretty ludicrous.
 
Joined
Apr 6, 2011
That's a bit different. (And by "a bit" I mean "completely.") Malladus wasn't serving Demise, unlike Ghirahim.

But what makes you think the Dark Interlopers serve Demise? Why do you think Malladus has nothing to with Demise, creator of all monsters, yet think the Dark Interlopers must be in the Skyward Sword backstory because the Twili resemble Ghirahim? I don't believe that the Ghirahim is a Dark Interloper because unlike the Interlopers, Ghirahim is a sword being like Fi. Ghirahim has no gender like Fi because he is a sword. His "Interloper" form is merely a facade to hide his true form and nature.


Source of all monsters, not source of all evil. There's a difference.

Demise is also known as 終焉の者 (Shuuen no Mono) in Japanese, literally the Person of Demise. I admit I might over-exaggerated the source of all monsters fact, but my point remains: I don't see why the Dark Interlopers are that special to Demise. Demise is the Satan of Hyrule, he doesn't need to be the leader in the Dark Interloper story at all (though there is a possiblity he could).

The connection is most certainly not perfect. As I pointed out, the Trident of Power wasn't seen, and neither was the Fused Shadow (although I didn't directly mention that). However, I also pointed out that it's implied that Demise attacked more than once. Fi says he appears differently in each epoch and to each person. An epoch is basically the same thing as an era. Why bring up the fact that he appears differently in each epoch if it wasn't significant? The fact that he appears to exist out of time only aids in this theory. There's more than enough to suggest a connection, even though it's not perfect. But, come on. How many connections in Nintendo's official timeline aren't perfect? With Zelda, not every last thing has to make absolute sense.

If he did attack the Surface more than once, why isn't it mention by anyone else? And let's not forget that Demise conquered time itself and Fi might state what Demise can do. He states he waited for eons after being sealed, though he says in the past when Hylia recently sealed him. Not to mention that Demise appears differently to each person, so while Link might have seen a demon Ganondorf, Groose might have seen a demonic Dark Link. As for the Trident of Power and Fused Shadows, there is no real evidence they came from Demise directly. The Trident could have been OoT Ganondorf's Trident as much as Demise and the Fused Shadow might have been created in a similar fashion as Majora's Mask.
Actually, Lanayru was talking about Hyrule in that cutscene, not the Sacred Realm that houses the Triforce, so this isn't very significant. I'm not sure where to go to prove it, but Locke can show you. He's the one I learned this from.

But that could also means the Interlopers weren't part of Demise's Army. Demise wanted the Triforce, hidden the Silent Realm which resembles the Sacred Realm. The Interlopers could just want to rule Hyrule without it. The arguement for that also contradicts your theory for Demise's Army as well as mine.
•History of the Twilight Realm

In ancient times, the people were deeply religious and the world had long been at peace. But, eventually there was conflict over the Sacred Realm, Hyrule. Among the people, those appeared who excelled at black magic and with their super powerful evil magic tried to govern the Sacred Realm.
The Gods sent the four Light Spirits, who then sealed away the Fused Shadows. Additionally, they used the Mirror of Twilight to exile them to the Twilight Realm so that they would never be able to interact with the World of Light. The people living in the Twilight, came to be called the Twili.

Among the people could mean that the Interlopers were once part of the human race before performing Dark Arts. While there may have been mistranslations about the Light Spirits, your stance that the Light Spirits were once Dragons because of their names doesn't hold weight as the Light Spirits could have been named after the provinces in which they reside in. There exist a Goron named Link and a Pig named Link, yet they are not related to Link aside from being named after him.
 
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JuicieJ

SHOW ME YA MOVES!
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But what makes you think the Dark Interlopers serve Demise? Why do you think Malladus has nothing to with Demise, creator of all monsters, yet think the Dark Interlopers must be in the Skyward Sword backstory because the Twili resemble Ghirahim? I don't believe that the Ghirahim is a Dark Interloper because unlike the Interlopers, Ghirahim is a sword being like Fi. Ghirahim has no gender like Fi because he is a sword. His "Interloper" form is merely a facade to hide his true form and nature.

First, I have more reasons than Ghriahim's magic looking like the Twili's. Second, just because Ghirahim is a weapon doesn't mean he can't be one of the "dark interlopers". If he's part of the group, that makes him a member, whether he's a sword or not.

Demise is also known as 終焉の者 (Shuuen no Mono) in Japanese, literally the Person of Demise. I admit I might over-exaggerated the source of all monsters fact, but my point remains: I don't see why the Dark Interlopers are that special to Demise. Demise is the Satan of Hyrule, he doesn't need to be the leader in the Dark Interloper story at all (though there is a possiblity he could).

Sure, he doesn't have to be, but the suggestions that are there are numerous and in our faces.

If he did attack the Surface more than once, why isn't it mention by anyone else? And let's not forget that Demise conquered time itself and Fi might state what Demise can do. He states he waited for eons after being sealed, though he says in the past when Hylia recently sealed him. Not to mention that Demise appears differently to each person, so while Link might have seen a demon Ganondorf, Groose might have seen a demonic Dark Link. As for the Trident of Power and Fused Shadows, there is no real evidence they came from Demise directly. The Trident could have been OoT Ganondorf's Trident as much as Demise and the Fused Shadow might have been created in a similar fashion as Majora's Mask.

I know it's only speculation, but, as I said, it's somewhat suggested. I don't know why I forgot to mention this before, but along with what I previously said, it's directly stated that other legends are intertwined with the story told in the ink blot scene. Coincidence? I find that hard to believe.

But that could also means the Interlopers weren't part of Demise's Army. Demise wanted the Triforce, hidden the Silent Realm which resembles the Sacred Realm. The Interlopers could just want to rule Hyrule without it. The arguement for that also contradicts your theory for Demise's Army as well as mine.

There's nothing to prove that the Triforce was always in the Silent Realm. For all we know, it was put there after Demise was defeated. In fact, that's what seems most likely, as the ink blot scene suggests that Hylia guarded the Triforce out in the open land.

Among the people could mean that the Interlopers were once part of the human race before performing Dark Arts. While there may have been mistranslations about the Light Spirits, your stance that the Light Spirits were once Dragons because of their names doesn't hold weight as the Light Spirits could have been named after the provinces in which they reside in. There exist a Goron named Link and a Pig named Link, yet they are not related to Link aside from being named after him.

Of course it could mean that they were a part of a human race, but they could just as well have been the Demon Tribe. I know that this whole thing is shrouded in mystery, but the evidence supporting my theory is quite overwhelming. You don't have to believe it, of course. As long as you realize that it's a possibility, you know your stuff (which, thankfully, you do realize it is).
 
Joined
Apr 6, 2011
So what other reasons do you believe that Ghirahim is related to the Dark Interlopers aside from his magic and appearance? The main reason I brought the personification of Demise's Sword and Malladus is because the general consesus I get from the Dark Tribe Theory is that the Dark Interlopers are part of Demise's Demon Army because of Ghirahim's appearance and fabulous magic and I believe it is too quick to assume such a thing. Fi and the Fairy Queen, Malladus and Demise as well as the Fused Shadow and Majora's Mask are things that people believe there's a connection because of their appearance, nature, and role of the story even if there might not be one. There has to been a better explanation as to why the Dark Interlopers belong to the War aganist Demise as opposed to the Era of Chaos or even the Hyrulean Civil War, both tales of the people fighting among each other.
 
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JuicieJ

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So what other reasons do you believe that Ghirahim is related to the Dark Interlopers aside from his magic and appearance?

Did you... not read the opening post and many other posts of mine in this thread? The reasons are quite clearly stated. If you couldn't see them, well...

The main reason I brought the personification of Demise's Sword and Malladus is because the general consesus I get from the Dark Tribe Theory is that the Dark Interlopers are part of Demise's Demon Army because of Ghirahim's appearance and fabulous magic and I believe it is too quick to assume such a thing. Fi and the Fairy Queen, Malladus and Demise as well as the Fused Shadow and Majora's Mask are things that people believe there's a connection because of their appearance, nature, and role of the story even if there might not be one. There has to been a better explanation as to why the Dark Interlopers belong to the War aganist Demise as opposed to the Era of Chaos or even the Hyrulean Civil War, both tales of the people fighting among each other.

Problem is, there's no absolutely solid explanation. Nothing about it is mentioned in Hyrule Historia (which is stupid), so it's left up to theorizing. If you wish to believe that it's in the Era of Chaos, that's fine. I'm choosing to believe that it's in the backstory of SS, though. Why? I've stated my reasons plenty of times throughout this thread, so I don't think there's any reason to restate them.
 
Joined
Apr 6, 2011
I think the misunderstanding and conflict we are having is who are the Dark Interlopers and how do we know it's them. While I can see why you'll believe that the demons could be the Dark Interlopers, I am more skeptical of that conclusion. Here are my reasons: Most of the demons in the intro are inhuman and resemble more of the Bokoblins than the Dark Interlopers and the Twili. Only Ghirahim looks human and that is because he was a personification of Demise's Sword. The only other demon could be considered to look human is the Beatrix and yet he has horns, wings, and claws. The Twili, descendant of the Dark Interlopers, are more human-like such as Midna and Zant. They only look monsterous when Zant cursed them and even then they don't resemble anything close to the demons in the intro.
Ghirahim was among the figures shown when a group of demons invaded the surface in order to obtain the Triforce, which fits the backstory of the "dark interlopers" perfectly.

I apologize if I sound a bit harsh on your theory in my response. But I think that words like perfectly and obivous should not be used because it seems like it already jumped to the conclusion before it even began. It gave me the wrong impression that you were stating your theory as fact. But I'll forgive that. It's your theory and I can't change that.
 

r2d93

Hero of the Stars
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Nov 10, 2011
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Lost Woods
This whole subject baffles me, I dont know what to think. Your theory had me fully conviced until the folloing comments. I always believed the interloper conflict occured within the Hyrulean Civil War. Maybe Demise's followers indeed are the dark tribe, but the were forced back to th depths, an rose back up again when th recieved word of the chao between the races and th struggl for the triforce.
 

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