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WW-Wii U Zoras Evolve for WW? What?

Justac00lguy

BooBoo
Joined
Jul 1, 2012
Gender
Shewhale
There have been quite a few threads from a while back questioning this, so I'm sure you're not the only one curious by this evolution of sorts.

I see it for quite a few reasons. There is an argument about the type of water etc. Zoras are an aquatic race that reside within a closed off section of water (e.g a river). So they have their own secluded section of water, maybe they reside within a special source of river water and are therefore susceptible to slight changes. A lot of this relates to real life nature as well, river based animals and fish probably rely on that water source, they rely on the temperature and salinity. While sea water is completely different -- thus river species wouldn't survive unless adaptable.

This could also apply to the food chain itself, so the Zoras could be the "hunted" within the Great Sea. We know there are multiple enemies within the Great Sea, specially Gyorgs. So not only would the Zoras have to adapt to different eater condition but they would have to compete for space and food etc. not to mention having to survive.

There was also an argument that they made this evolution so that the race couldn't find out about the sunken Hyrule of the past--as Zoras are gifted swimmers--they may be able to find and spread the world of, possibly leading to devastation. However, this is a stretch in my eyes. I actually think it's a combination of what I mentioned in the above paragraphs and that they have new abilities as the Rito. So given the fact that surviving in the Great Sea would be a hard task, I believe this adaptation was more logical. The Great Sea separated towns/provinces etc. Communication probably diminished - this is where the Rito come in. Having the ability to fly meant that they could swiftly deliver mail and messages across multiple islands. The Zoras already showed that they could navigate on foot, and the fin-like features probably made the way for feather like wings for the Rito.

This is just my view on the situation. I doubt we'll ever get anything official though.
 
Joined
Aug 12, 2013
Location
Ashland, OR
Like surferguy said, the goddesses probably didn't want all the Zoras swimming around the sunken Hyrule Castle and telling everyone else. Technically, Hyrule Historia doesn't say anything about evolution, so the goddesses probably magically transformed the Zoras into Rito. Magic is always the answer.

Here are some direct quotes from the book for you:

"The continent that once contained the land of Hyrule has sunk to the bottom of the ocean, and only islands remain. Aside from the Hylians, who rule over the realm, a small number of peoples in
whose veins flow the blood of the Kokiri, Goron, and Zora tribes yet survive."

"The sage of Earth: This sage plays a harp. Medli, a maiden of the Rito tribe who later awakens as a sage, is an attendant to the guardian deity Valoo. Her predecessor as Sage of Earth was Laruto of the Zora tribe."

"The Kokiri and Zora Tribes Take on New Forms: Some of the peoples in the Era of the Great Sea underwent drastic changes in form during the tumultuous eras of the past. The Kokiri now appear plantlike, having transformed into the Korok tribe, who spread greenery around the world with the spirit known as the Deku Tree. The Zora tribe, who now bear birdlike beaks, have transformed into the Rito. They grow their wings upon being blessed with one of the spirit Valoo’s scales. The Goron tribe has not undergone much change, but its members wander the earth as vagabonds."

These quotes are taken from the WW section of Hyrule Historia, pg 122-129. It DOES say specifically that the Rito were born of the Zora tribe. Saying that the Goddesses did it is defaulting to a divine power, which is not a logical argument. Besides, if we take "transform" literally, then in context it refers the cause of the transformation to the previous eras of war and unrest, not to the goddesses. It also implies that it took place over a long period of time, the period without a hero. The three guardians protect the pearls and serve as demigods to their own people, not as figures with the capability of changing the physical forms of their followers. At best, you might be able to say that some got curious, touched Valoo's scales and magically poofed into birds. But until even those born as Rito tribal members touch the scales, they cannot fly.

I have already addressed the issues with differences in water: there are Zoras in rivers and in the sea, as showcased throughout the whole Zelda series.

The argument about them not being the biggest and baddest in the water anymore doesn't really hold with me. They have a fortress. They were trained in combat previously and are a formidable force when they aren't blasted off their feet with ice sheets. They have guards who carry weapons and go on patrols of their own territory. This a people unperturbed by a little idea like having to defend their home.

As for the ease of mailing things, it would be just as easy for a Zora to travel through water as it is for a Rito to travel through the sky. And no young girl is going to get trapped on a mountain trying to "earn" her right of movement. So I feel that arguing they changed simply to carry people's mail is not great.

And for keeping the secret of sunken Hyrule, in previous games the races did not share all their secrets with each other. Given how other games play, it would make perfect sense for Link to have to settle with a Zora tribe before entering the sunken kingdom. The tribes have always been entrusted with special items and places. I don't see how it would be impossible for the Zoras to keep dominion over the entrance to the lost city. If we absolutely must include the goddesses even more in this whole set up, why not make sure that nobody went poking around by having people to guard it in secret? That way there are still a handful of people who know about it and can help the Hero of Winds when he shows up, and the area is kept safe from evil forces. The only reason Link didn't hit a dead end in the very beginning is because the long-dead soul of the King of Hyrule just happened to show up as a boat.
 
Joined
Jul 22, 2011
Location
'Murica
Does it really matter? The Zoras, theoretically, could guard the kingdom, but why guard a forgotten land? The "they evolved in order to deliver mail" argument still holds because water travel isn't exactly the best way to deliver paper. Furthermore, considering they don't even get their wings until they meet Valoo, maybe they weren't always evolved. Perhaps they just walked up to Valoo and said "Sup", and then all of a sudden, wings sprouted from their backs.

Case and point: The goddesses wanted Hyrule gone forever, so the Zoras had to evolve. Hell, the Hero of Winds wasn't even supposed to happen, but Ganny decided to run amuck and screw everything.
 
Joined
Aug 12, 2013
Location
Ashland, OR
Does it really matter? The Zoras, theoretically, could guard the kingdom, but why guard a forgotten land? The "they evolved in order to deliver mail" argument still holds because water travel isn't exactly the best way to deliver paper. Furthermore, considering they don't even get their wings until they meet Valoo, maybe they weren't always evolved. Perhaps they just walked up to Valoo and said "Sup", and then all of a sudden, wings sprouted from their backs.

Case and point: The goddesses wanted Hyrule gone forever, so the Zoras had to evolve. Hell, the Hero of Winds wasn't even supposed to happen, but Ganny decided to run amuck and screw everything.

Well with that logic none of it matters at all. In fact, in terms of life goes, you are absolutely right. It matters not at all. However, a sensible conclusion that has more than inner consistency was the goal of this thread. If none of it matters then you must not think there is? As for why guard a forgotten land, why subjugate one race into mailmen? Why entrust a fat, lazy dragon with a priceless, powerful gem? Why let the king of Hyrule out in spirit if the Hero of the Winds is not destiny? If Ganandorf is supposed to be sealed away forever, along with Hyrule and it's king, and this is *forever,* mind you, then why does the evil thief get released with basically no effort, the king's soul leave without restraint and become a boat and the Tower of the Gods serve as an entryway?

If you want to question something as simple as why guard the sealed remains of the most evil creature not only on the earth, but in Ever, then nothing else really matters at all. If he's not worth guarding to make sure, ya know, he doesn't escape and do exactly what he did in WW, then the whole series falls apart. Never does leaving him to his own devices, sealed or otherwise, work.

As for the mail thing, there are multiple developed places in the world. There are boats, ships carrier birds, human sized birds and more. It's just arrogance to suggest that the goddesses created a race so the humans could take part in long-distance communication. I've always had a problem with the fact that only Rito tribesmen are mailmen and that it's all hyped up for them as being a big deal. It's really not. They are just able to transport things more quickly than a freight ship. Plus, wouldn't it take longer anyway to have these guys peddling around the *entire world* bringing every scrap of mail back to the island, sorting it, and then flying it all the way back to, say, the guy down the street, that it would be to simply have some people in boats?

If you don't want to question it that's fine. But this is a forum for questioning, and so we ask. If your answer is tantamount to "Who cares?" then what is the point of a forum for questioning?

With your only remaining point being that it doesn't matter, it would seem that my points are valid. Also, you took my sentence about the poofing into birds, which was complete sarcasm, and tried to make it into a legitimate thing. But, as ludicrous as it is, that argument is pretty much the only one that allows for Zoras to become bird men, even if it flies in the face of Nintendo's statements about how it took many eras for them to become so.
 
Joined
Jul 22, 2011
Location
'Murica
Well with that logic none of it matters at all. In fact, in terms of life goes, you are absolutely right. It matters not at all. However, a sensible conclusion that has more than inner consistency was the goal of this thread. If none of it matters then you must not think there is? As for why guard a forgotten land, why subjugate one race into mailmen? Why entrust a fat, lazy dragon with a priceless, powerful gem? Why let the king of Hyrule out in spirit if the Hero of the Winds is not destiny? If Ganandorf is supposed to be sealed away forever, along with Hyrule and it's king, and this is *forever,* mind you, then why does the evil thief get released with basically no effort, the king's soul leave without restraint and become a boat and the Tower of the Gods serve as an entryway?

If you want to question something as simple as why guard the sealed remains of the most evil creature not only on the earth, but in Ever, then nothing else really matters at all. If he's not worth guarding to make sure, ya know, he doesn't escape and do exactly what he did in WW, then the whole series falls apart. Never does leaving him to his own devices, sealed or otherwise, work.

As for the mail thing, there are multiple developed places in the world. There are boats, ships carrier birds, human sized birds and more. It's just arrogance to suggest that the goddesses created a race so the humans could take part in long-distance communication. I've always had a problem with the fact that only Rito tribesmen are mailmen and that it's all hyped up for them as being a big deal. It's really not. They are just able to transport things more quickly than a freight ship. Plus, wouldn't it take longer anyway to have these guys peddling around the *entire world* bringing every scrap of mail back to the island, sorting it, and then flying it all the way back to, say, the guy down the street, that it would be to simply have some people in boats?

If you don't want to question it that's fine. But this is a forum for questioning, and so we ask. If your answer is tantamount to "Who cares?" then what is the point of a forum for questioning?

With your only remaining point being that it doesn't matter, it would seem that my points are valid. Also, you took my sentence about the poofing into birds, which was complete sarcasm, and tried to make it into a legitimate thing. But, as ludicrous as it is, that argument is pretty much the only one that allows for Zoras to become bird men, even if it flies in the face of Nintendo's statements about how it took many eras for them to become so.

You're not really giving me an argument, you're just throwing a bunch of jumbled poorly constructed repetitive paragraphs. I said "Does it matter?" because having the Zoras 'protect' the drowned Hyrule is completely inane, not because this entire discussion didn't have merit.

Furthermore, you're getting heated about something that doesn't require a detailed explanation. Do you want Nintendo to present a pretty chart as to how the Zora race grew wings? There isn't an answer other than, "They get them from the Sky Spirit" which is pretty sufficient in my opinion.

You either accept what the game tells you, or don't. Otherwise you just came here to run around in circles and complain about how your precious Zoras grew wings. (Which seems to be the case)
 
Joined
Aug 12, 2013
Location
Ashland, OR
You're not really giving me an argument, you're just throwing a bunch of jumbled poorly constructed repetitive paragraphs. I said "Does it matter?" because having the Zoras 'protect' the drowned Hyrule is completely inane, not because this entire discussion didn't have merit.

Furthermore, you're getting heated about something that doesn't require a detailed explanation. Do you want Nintendo to present a pretty chart as to how the Zora race grew wings? There isn't an answer other than, "They get them from the Sky Spirit" which is pretty sufficient in my opinion.

You either accept what the game tells you, or don't. Otherwise you just came here to run around in circles and complain about how your precious Zoras grew wings. (Which seems to be the case)

Oooo well don't you just go around telling everybody how it is. Every scrap of evidence you have provided has been either blatantly false or simply incorrect. I have provided you with the text on the Zora-Rito transformation, and the sky spirit is never mentioned. It doesn't make sense for you to refuse to refute my clearly laid out evidence and analysis and then hide behind some crap that you think it's poorly constructed and therefore unworthy of your attention, as if I need to number it out in the Socratic formula for you just to be graced with your rudeness.

Of course it doesn't require a detailed explanation. It's called speculation and theory for a reason. You go from divine intervention to dragon scales, to sky spirits and beyond; you don't pick a way that you think it happened, so why are you still arguing? According to your posts you think that goddesses transformed the Zora to keep Hyrule hidden, that some trooped up on land and just decided to be birds and that a nameless sky spirit poofed them out of their bodies for the fun of it. You can't have it all three ways.

Yes, I would like an answer. No, I don't like yours and I think they are wrong and that they do not fit in with the isolated story of WW. The game tells you nothing about the Zora, so where you get that slice, I have no idea. I have presented concise refutations to all of your possible answers, which have gotten increasingly rude with each new entry. You have answered none of mine, and instead slip and slide away to a different version of your same theory, refusing to admit that the words in the timeline given to us directly conflict with what you are saying and contradict the basic Zelda formula.

If you want to get all butthurt because I've consistently proven you wrong, then you can leave the discussion and let people with something to contribute talk a little bit. Notice that nobody else is being rude but you. Plus you don't know the difference between complaining and a genuine search for an answer. I suppose every Zelda related question that concerns the social aspects of the game is also complaining?

Until now I always thought that the Rito tribe was something entirely new and that the Zoras somehow got wiped out before the WW Link was born. Now that I have read Hyrule Historia and know that this is not the case, I want a *healthy* and *friendly* discussion on why Nintendo would choose to put it this way, and not in the many other ways that have been posted here and ones we haven't thought of yet. You don't really seem to want to participate in that so I'd rather not discuss anything with you at this point since you're being rude, and apparently only going to get more so, and this was started as an innocent question. So good day.
 

ProtagonistJake

Shepard
Joined
Jun 26, 2013
But what about sharks, the giant octopus and everything? I don't see why one source of food can't be replaced by another. I mean, are the Zora THAT picky? It would be way easier to just eat something else than evolve into birds and eat other things anyway. And if there are no fish, what on earth do all those seagulls eat?!?!

The Zoras have SPEARS for crying out loud! They should be able to eat whatever they want! The Great Ocean is calm for the most part, and the regular monsters stay out of the sea. They are way more vulnerable to evil as a land-based tribe who worship a dragon! I like the Rito tribe, but I never, EVER considered them to be anything like the Zoras. I thought they were a whole new species that had developed when birds realized there was no place to land anymore or something. That makes more sense than the Zora evolving like crazy and changing their entire culture and becoming mail men. . .
Yeah I dont know what to tell ya

Its one of those things that you just gotta laugh at and not let bother you since the game isnt very story focused. The story is the excuse for the gameplay in Zelda, not the other way around except for Skyward Sword, but yeah, they should've payed more attention to detail either way, but yeah.

Not one of those things that should ruin the game for you
 

Justac00lguy

BooBoo
Joined
Jul 1, 2012
Gender
Shewhale
I have already addressed the issues with differences in water: there are Zoras in rivers and in the sea, as showcased throughout the whole Zelda series.
Even though the race is stated as being "Sea Zoras", they are still secluded from the Sea, usually within a closed provinces or village. They are not exposed to a vast ocean, which is completely different to what they are used to. They would be exposed to the dangers of the wide open Sea and it's inhabitants as well as having no set area in which to live in and thrive.

Awesomehylian said:
The argument about them not being the biggest and baddest in the water anymore doesn't really hold with me. They have a fortress. They were trained in combat previously and are a formidable force when they aren't blasted off their feet with ice sheets. They have guards who carry weapons and go on patrols of their own territory. This a people unperturbed by a little idea like having to defend their home.
The race "rarely" engages in battle and we only have a short insight into their combat abilities. Probably the main being Mikau from Majora's Mask. Truth be told, we don't know they are "formidable" in this aspect that's just an assumption. Look at the most dominant race for example - the Hylians. Most of the race are peaceful and probably untrained in combat - that's why they have the separation of Soldiers and Knights. Many Zoras would be exposed, not to mention their eggs - look at Majora's Mask for example, they were exposed to large bodies of water and were attacked as of a result. In all, they were vulnerable, apply this in a larger scale environment--like the Great Sea--and you have a problem.

Awesomehylian said:
As for the ease of mailing things, it would be just as easy for a Zora to travel through water as it is for a Rito to travel through the sky. And no young girl is going to get trapped on a mountain trying to "earn" her right of movement. So I feel that arguing they changed simply to carry people's mail is not great.
Well I would think it would be hard to swim with mail and to still keep it in good condition ;)

No but really, having wings is efficient, especially with the separation of people by Islands etc. There were not that many forms of transportation seen in The Wind Waker, with most Island inhabitants being confined to that one place. However, having multiple Ritos handling mail, made way for faster and more efficient communication. You have to remember, communication is vastly important, keeping unity is always important.
 
Joined
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Location
Ashland, OR
I'm actually having a conversation about the MM thing with someone else XD Yes it is true that they lived in the ocean and it is also true that they experienced problems with their water, but these events do not hold a causality for one another. In MM, every area is polluted due to the violation of the temples. The swamp water is poisonous, the mountain is plagued by blizzards, Ikana is overrun, and the ocean is acting strangely, causing abnormalities which affect the Zora. The oceanic problems are caused by issues with the temple, not some innate problem with the water itself, just as the swamp water is not actually poisonous.

As for being attacked, the same thing applies. They are attacked because of the value of their eggs and their proximity to a fortress of violent thieves, not because they are in any particular kind of water. Again, there is no causality between the attributes of the water and them being attacked.

But! A friend of mine just showed me a quote from Miyamoto (don't know how true it is) that says he got the idea of the Rito tribe from a spin-off comic that was not considered to be canon and so wasn't included in the timeline. This species was made up of bird people, making the Rito design geared from the start to be based on birds only, not Zoras. :) If this is the case, then the decision to make the Zora into birds by the developers would have been independent of the game itself. Sadly, I guess that would mean that it's all just poorly put together *sob* and there is no happy answer to how the Zora evolved, other than that the developers didn't want a water temple since you're in the water all the time anyway. *sigh* Still, I think an underwater temple would have been so cool!
 

Aelic7

The Young Drifter
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
Here are some direct quotes from the book for you:

"The continent that once contained the land of Hyrule has sunk to the bottom of the ocean, and only islands remain. Aside from the Hylians, who rule over the realm, a small number of peoples in
whose veins flow the blood of the Kokiri, Goron, and Zora tribes yet survive."

"The sage of Earth: This sage plays a harp. Medli, a maiden of the Rito tribe who later awakens as a sage, is an attendant to the guardian deity Valoo. Her predecessor as Sage of Earth was Laruto of the Zora tribe."

"The Kokiri and Zora Tribes Take on New Forms: Some of the peoples in the Era of the Great Sea underwent drastic changes in form during the tumultuous eras of the past. The Kokiri now appear plantlike, having transformed into the Korok tribe, who spread greenery around the world with the spirit known as the Deku Tree. The Zora tribe, who now bear birdlike beaks, have transformed into the Rito. They grow their wings upon being blessed with one of the spirit Valoo’s scales. The Goron tribe has not undergone much change, but its members wander the earth as vagabonds."

These quotes are taken from the WW section of Hyrule Historia, pg 122-129. It DOES say specifically that the Rito were born of the Zora tribe. Saying that the Goddesses did it is defaulting to a divine power, which is not a logical argument. Besides, if we take "transform" literally, then in context it refers the cause of the transformation to the previous eras of war and unrest, not to the goddesses. It also implies that it took place over a long period of time, the period without a hero. The three guardians protect the pearls and serve as demigods to their own people, not as figures with the capability of changing the physical forms of their followers. At best, you might be able to say that some got curious, touched Valoo's scales and magically poofed into birds. But until even those born as Rito tribal members touch the scales, they cannot fly.

How is that argument not logical? The Goddesses are an integral part of the entire Zelda story; saying they couldn't have magically transformed the Zoras is like saying they couldn't have directed Hyrule's citizens to the mountaintops or flooded Hyrule because "it's not logical." Since when has magic not been a valid argument in the Zelda universe? How do you think the Kokiri became the Koroks?

Also, nowhere in Hyrule Historia does it credit the "tumultuous eras of the past" as being the cause of change in the Zoras and Kokiri (Since when do periods of unrest cause complete biological transformations, anyway?). It only says those changes happened during that time. There is no evidence whatsoever in the text that indicate this process took a long time, either. When you have the Goddesses who lead the life-forms of Hyrule to the mountaintops and the Goddesses who flooded the country, how could it not be a reasonable assumption to say that the Goddesses transformed the Zoras as well?
 

Burning Beast

Go to Hell 4 Heavens Sake
Joined
Dec 6, 2012
Location
Zelda Dungeon
It's possible the Zora's evolved before the Great Sea was flooded. We don't know exactly how many years passed between OoT's end and WW's intro. It could have been hundreds of years, so by the time the Great Sea came about, the Zora's now Rito, wouldn't really be the biggest fan of the water ever.

Granted it still doesn't explain why they evolved into the Rito in the first place (or how), but it at least takes away the idea that they absolutely have to evolved as soon as the sea was flooded.
 

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