Zora to Rito

[Ryuu Kage Desu]

...by providing lore and context that never happened in two of the timelines?

Which two? I've found lore and context for all three. Admittedly, I have found the least for the adult timeline, and the most for the downfall timeline. The most obvious reference to this idea is the quest to find the bones of the three leviathans. Each is stated to have died under drastically different conditions, lining up with the three timelines.

The connections are there, however tenuous. So, including room for all three timelines when talking about Breath of the Wild just makes the discourse stronger, not weaker.

(as a side note, I don't know why my shrug emote was changed to a male symbol... I'm going to try to fix that.)

 

[Mikey the Moblin]

Which two? I've found lore and context for all three. Admittedly, I have found the least for the adult timeline, and the most for the downfall timeline. The most obvious reference to this idea is the quest to find the bones of the three leviathans. Each is stated to have died under drastically different conditions, lining up with the three timelines.

it doesn't work that way
it doesn't matter how much evidence you find in support for a specific timeline placement if a single point of evidence against that timeline placement is found, and adult and child timelines are both disproven

 

[Ryuu Kage Desu]

@Mikey the Moblin, I'm not aware of anything that genuinely disproves the child or adult timelines.

 

[Mikey the Moblin]

Questions about BOTW being in the adult timeline

So say Breath of the Wild takes place in the adult timeline. Yeah it explains the Koroks, Rito, and salt from an ancient sea, but what about the knowledge involving towns and structures lost beneath the waves? I’m not talking about places like Goron City or Castle Town given how those are...

zeldadungeon.net

 

[Spiritual Mask Salesman]

@Mikey the Moblin, I'm not aware of anything that genuinely disproves the child or adult timelines.

The OoT sages were never awoken on the Child timeline, yet they are referenced in BoTW. Ruto is mentioned in the Zora murals, the Gerudo also remember Nabooru. If we want to take the sidequest featuring what might be pieces of the Mirror of Twilight literally, the Mirror was shattered completely at the end of Twilight Princess, so it would have to be a version of the mirror on a different timeline.

The Great Sea is probably never going away, Old Hyrule is definitely gone for good on the Adult timeline. If the water receded than the King's wish at the end of Wind Waker was pointless, and the Triforce isn't as powerful as we thought.

@Moblinking5000 had a really good thread where he pointed out that pretty much all the references in the Ceremonial Prayer could be related the Skyward Sword particularly.

Uhhh... I could go on but at this point I'm legitimately thinking about writing up a thread about what works and what doesn't for BotW and pinning it, lol.

 

[Mikey the Moblin]

Uhhh... I could go on but at this point I'm legitimately thinking about writing up a thread about what works and what doesn't for BotW and pinning it, lol.

gets repetitive lol

 

[Ryuu Kage Desu]

The OoT sages were never awoken on the Child timeline, yet they are referenced in BoTW. Ruto is mentioned in the Zora murals, the Gerudo also remember Nabooru. If we want to take the sisequest featuring what might be pieces of the Mirror of Twilight literally, the Mirror was shattered completely at the end of Twilight Princess, so it would have to be a version of the mirror on a different timeline.

The Great Sea is probably never going away, Old Hyrule is definitely gone for good on the Adult timeline. If the water receded than the King's wish at the end of Wind Waker was pointless, and the Triforce isn't as powerful as we thought.

@Moblinking5000 had a really good thread where he pointed out that pretty much all the references in the Ceremonial Prayer could be related the Skyward Sword particularly.

Uhhh... I could go on but at this point I'm legitimately thinking about writing up a thread about what works and what doesn't for BotW and pinning it, lol.

These are all good reasons why I think if Breath of the Wild does indeed represent a time line convergence, or at least the same story being able to be taking place in the far future of them all, that the world tends away from those types of worlds, in favor of the downfall conditions. You should start that thread. I would enjoy digging deeper into that topic as a whole, rather than just picking out what is relevant to the original topic here. Unfortunately, none of it actually disproves the connection outright. Not even the Triforce wish, which I think is really good evidence. (Though, if Hyrule was wiped completely out, why would the god(desse)s need to maintain the special waters to keep it sealed away?) The wish could easily be undone, or sidestepped, by another such wish, especially if the second wisher had more vindication. (If I remember correctly, the power of the wish is related to the determination of the wisher... or something like that) Hyrule could have been brought back by a greater will, or New Hyrule could have been remade in the origonal's image. The sages could have been awoken at a later time, for a different reason. A different princess could have been named Ruto. Similar with Nabooru. Which is all just to say, however tenuous, getting from even the most unlikely time line to Breath of the Wild is still possible.

This tells us that after the Zora evolved, or mutated, the race does indeed have the chance to return to the Zora form. This further helps the original idea that the change was artificial. But, I also think it helps explain how we have Zora later on, not the future Rito, though. The best explanation for the Rito, in Breath of the Wild, is an explanation that could work in all three timelines.

 

[Moblinking5000]

@Moblinking5000 had a really good thread where he pointed out that pretty much all the references in the Ceremonial Prayer could be related the Skyward Sword particularly.

Uhhh... I could go on but at this point I'm legitimately thinking about writing up a thread about what works and what doesn't for BotW and pinning it, lol.

We could just pin the countless topics I've made, lol.

These are all good reasons why I think if Breath of the Wild does indeed represent a time line convergence, or at least the same story being able to be taking place in the far future of them all, that the world tends away from those types of worlds, in favor of the downfall conditions. You should start that thread. I would enjoy digging deeper into that topic as a whole, rather than just picking out what is relevant to the original topic here. Unfortunately, none of it actually disproves the connection outright. Not even the Triforce wish, which I think is really good evidence. (Though, if Hyrule was wiped completely out, why would the god(desse)s need to maintain the special waters to keep it sealed away?) The wish could easily be undone, or sidestepped, by another such wish, especially if the second wisher had more vindication. (If I remember correctly, the power of the wish is related to the determination of the wisher... or something like that) Hyrule could have been brought back by a greater will, or New Hyrule could have been remade in the origonal's image. The sages could have been awoken at a later time, for a different reason. A different princess could have been named Ruto. Similar with Nabooru. Which is all just to say, however tenuous, getting from even the most unlikely time line to Breath of the Wild is still possible.

This tells us that after the Zora evolved, or mutated, the race does indeed have the chance to return to the Zora form. This further helps the original idea that the change was artificial. But, I also think it helps explain how we have Zora later on, not the future Rito, though. The best explanation for the Rito, in Breath of the Wild, is an explanation that could work in all three timelines.

A convergence makes no sense., and there is no evidence supporting a second Triforce wish.

And Ruto in BotW is mentioned as having helped a past hero fight an evil man who brought calamity to Zora's Domain and Hyrule in the distant past. Sounds like OoT to me, not to mention that both BotW and CaC mention that it takes place in the distant past even longer before the events of 10,000 years ago. Also, Nabooru was born at the same time as Ganondorf according to CaC:

The Fairy Tale of Calamity Ganon and the Gerudo King – Master Works, page 395

docs.google.com

BotW only works on the DT when you consider the lore as presented. Speculating about what COULD happen is pointless when there's no evidence of that happening. If you want, I can link you to the countless topics I've made examining the evidence for BotW's placement and why it needs to be in the DT to make sense.

 

[Ryuu Kage Desu]

BotW only works on the DT when you consider the lore as presented.

I agree with you. The downfall timeline is the best fit. Unfortunately, while looking at the in game information, there are suggestions that it is not so simple. As I mentioned earlier, the Leviathan Bones quest plays out almost like the creators are looking at the screen and telling the player that the game could take place in all three timelines. Three people are standing around, talking about their theories about Hyrule's past. Link is asked to literally go and find evidence to support each of their theories. And, these histories that they are debating line up with each of the timelines. I remember one of the first statements about the timeline placement stated that it takes place so far in the future that anything could have happened, to bring the events to Breath of the Wild. I am reciting from memory, so I probably got some of the wording a little off. Then there is the whole description of the sea salt, and the blue tunic being connected to the royal champions.

If we found no connections to the other time lines, I would be all to happy to call it the downfall timeline, and be done with it. it's unfortunate for the hard core timeline theorist, it is impossible to completely rule out the possibility that the game could take place in the other timelines. It's a bit like Bigfoot. Most people agree that Bigfoot is not real, but scientifically speaking, we can't prove it's non existence. We can get to a really high confidence that it doesn't exist, which is good enough for the courts. This, ultimately is the difference between your arguments and mine. You can provide enough evidence and counter-evidence to attain a high level of confidence, where as I am saying that there is still that narrow chance.

I agree that there is no direct evidence for anything as drastic as a Triforce wish, which it would require something drastic to get from Spirit Tracks to Breath of the Wild, but there is also nothing to suggest that the flood never goes away. As soon as there is safe water, in any event, the Zora are free to return to the Zora form.

A convergence makes no sense.

And, yet, there are theories... I both hate the idea, and am intrigued by it; both for the Zelda universe and our own.

 

[Spiritual Mask Salesman]

I agree that there is no direct evidence for anything as drastic as a Triforce wish, which it would require something drastic to get from Spirit Tracks to Breath of the Wild, but there is also nothing to suggest that the flood never goes away. As soon as there is safe water, in any event, the Zora are free to return to the Zora form.

At the end of TWW the Great Sea become a real ocean and not some mystical waters like before. While I can't say for sure, I don't think ocean water can recede completely even after millions of years.

 

[Moblinking5000]

I remember one of the first statements about the timeline placement stated that it takes place so far in the future that anything could have happened, to bring the events to Breath of the Wild. I am reciting from memory, so I probably got some of the wording a little off. Then there is the whole description of the sea salt, and the blue tunic being connected to the royal champions.

Sure you're not misremembering the Aonuma statement where he said that BotW takes place in a world where there has been many battles with Ganon? If so, that only supports the DT placement even more., because then we have more Ganon conflicts on the DT then the other two.

There's been plenty of seas in Zelda. Why assume that the Great Sea is the one that's being spoken of in the Rock Salt description, when the name of the ''ancient sea'' is never given?

And come on my man, are you really suggesting that BotW is on the AT because of the fact that Link's Pajamas are blue in TWW, and the Champion's Tunic also happens to be blue? Are you really suggesting those are the only two blue pieces of clothing in Zelda? That's like saying that the Oracle games are after MM because Link is riding a horse in both games.

If we found no connections to the other time lines, I would be all to happy to call it the downfall timeline, and be done with it. it's unfortunate for the hard core timeline theorist, it is impossible to completely rule out the possibility that the game could take place in the other timelines. It's a bit like Bigfoot. Most people agree that Bigfoot is not real, but scientifically speaking, we can't prove it's non existence. We can get to a really high confidence that it doesn't exist, which is good enough for the courts. This, ultimately is the difference between your arguments and mine. You can provide enough evidence and counter-evidence to attain a high level of confidence, where as I am saying that there is still that narrow chance.

The whole point of theorizing is to come up with the most sensical answers, though. There's no point in saying there's a narrow chance that what's most likely true might not be when, 1) we know that, and 2) until we get confirmation otherwise, pretending that the other less likely thing is true has no purpose.

We can't prove that Unicorns don't exist either, but until I have a REALLY good reason to believe otherwise, I'm not going to pretend that they do exist.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

 

[Mikey the Moblin]

Occams razor

 

[Ryuu Kage Desu]

The whole point of theorizing is to come up with the most sensical answers, though.

I first red cynical.

I view theorizing as finding ways to finish, or work with, a puzzle that has missing pieces. For me, it's not about finding right or wrong; it's about finding possibilities. Occam's Razor is an important tool, and a tool I use, but not the end all, be all. So when anyone asks if I am suggesting something proves that there is a connection, I prefer to say that a connection can be drawn. I try to stay away from absolutes. Therefore, I hope you understand that when I say that the royal blue could be a connection to the blue pjs, if the story takes place in the adult timeline; I am not saying that anything is proven, or even that it is my personal take. I am saying that there is a possibility. Occam's Razor is why I personally back the Downfall timeline placement, but I don't push it as far to say that all else is impossible. Absolutes are a dangerous territory, and have been proven wrong before.

At the end of TWW the Great Sea become a real ocean and not some mystical waters like before. While I can't say for sure, I don't think ocean water can recede completely even after millions of years.

It depends on where it came from. If the water was literally moved from one place to another, it could make it's way back. If the water came from deep below the earth, it could take a long time to filter back down. If it all came from an outside source, then the water level may still drop a little, as the water cycle carries the new water to icecaps, and the ground filters it below the crust. I have always thought the flooded forest part in Skyward Sword was a reference to the flood in Wind Waker. The flood basicly happens for the same reason, and the water goes away when the right conditions are met.

 

[Mikey the Moblin]

To be clear
If nintendo announced that botw took place in a timeline other than the downfall
I'd consider it a retcon and wait for the game that pulls some funky voodoo crap to make it work to come out

 

[Hero-of-Time777]

It's just another case of Nintendo not understanding science, like Zelda being forced to eternally give birth to herself via the "unbroken Hylia bloodline". A way of trying to "explain" an appearance of a new race in the series when all they could've said was that the Rito were there all along, just unintroduced, like with the Minish in Minish Cap, the Gorons, Kokiri, Sheikah, Gerudo and Deku Scrubs etc. in Ocarina of Time.
The Rito in BOTW are supposed to be the same Rito from Wind Waker. That's why Medoh is named after Medli, one of the landscape areas after Komali, why Rito Village's theme is Dragon Roost Island, and why they're called "Rito", for God's sakes, and not some new race name. They're the same tribe, just with a new, cooler, more realistic design. I think Nintendo's embarrassed about their former "explanation" about how the Rito "evolved". That's not how evolution works, not to mention it completely ignores how the Hylians and Gorons, etc. didn't "evolve" into things completely unsuited for the environment.
Always thought the Wind Waker Rito evolving from Zora was BS, never believed it, and I'm glad BOTW proved me right.
Laruto can still be an ancestor of Medli while being a completely separate race. It's obvious the different races of Hyrule interbreed and mixed-blood is an inevitable, scientific fact. Especially in a series like Zelda where it's supposed to go on forever.
If the Rito evolved from anything it was from birds, just as humans evolved from monkeys, and the Zora evolved from fish, etc. Seriously, not hard to figure out. I'm so happy the Rito became their own original race in Breath of the Wild alongside the other iconic races of the series. It's a sign of Nintendo getting smarter.