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Zelda Dungeon / Zelda Informer supporting BLM campaign

Shroom

The Artist Formally Known as Deku Shroom™
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@A Link In Time I'm normally completely against the use generalizations, but I think nuance is of no use here because we are seeing very similar behavior and actions among different parts of our country all from the police. The actions I described, such as blocking in protestors, setting up traps for protestors (bricks all around being the prime one) with the use of undercover cops to entice those protestors in order to get a reaction so that they can crack down, then yeah, it seems to be their norm on how they handle these situations, which is incredibly immoral. They need better training and harsher punishments, and most importantly, to be held accountable.

Mass incarceration is a huge issue, and we essentially have modern day slavery, like you said, but people don't want to call it that because we can hide around the fact they broke a law, but there's much more gray in the world than that. They also get "paid," but it's essentially nothing. That's a whole other discussion, but I agree.

I feel bad for those who would lose work, but, again, if you cannot be heard, then the wallet tends to be the place to go. Are there people out there just capitalizing on this unrest to loot and destroy things? Absolutely, but large corporations have lobbying power within the government, which in turn, becomes a louder voice. Is it perfect? No. Do I like it? No, but I understand the reasoning.

quick edit:

For my final point. Do I think that there aren't good people working as cops? No, of course not. I do, however, find it hard to see how people working in said field can be complacent in acting this way against their own people. There is enough evidence to see that the strategies departments are employing in these times aren't the work of some bad eggs, it goes deeper and it needs addressed. The way they are treating protestors genuinely makes me sick to my stomach and they're breaking laws so openly with no repercussions. It's just reinforcing the mindset that these people already have in that they cannot trust their law enforcement. These aren't some random and private groups like the Pinkertons, these are supposed to be the guys protecting your communities.
 
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Ragnarokio

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I think we’re focusing on the wrong thing here. I don’t think racism is the problem here. Don’t get me wrong it is a problem, but it’s most likely not the problem that caused Me.Floyds death. There is very little evidence of racism being the motivation behind the officers crimes. He had complaints against him, but they were about 50:50 in terms of the targeted demographic. Even if it was racially motivated, that doesn’t necessarily mean that the system is inherently racist. Of course there are a few bad apples but the amount of white people that are killed by cops is closer to the amount of black people killed by cops than people care to admit.

I’m all for the peaceful protests, in fact I’m happy that they are willing to stand up for what they believe in, but unfortunately I believe they’re not seeing the bigger picture. The problem isn’t racism, it’s police brutality in general.

So while I appreciate BLM, and I don’t think what they’re doing is wrong, I don’t necessarily support them either.

The violent protesters are the scum of the earth though and IMO even worse than the cop.
by violent protesters do you mean the ones throwing rocks and flipping over cop cars? I feel like those things aren't as bad as murder. I think that the number one thing the protesters want is justice reform to the ends of having increased police accountability and less police killings. The two major victories of the movement so far have been increased police transparency (requiring police to wear bodycams) and slowly changing the culture wherein its taboo to prosecute police. Both of these things are huge victories in terms of fighting police brutality, so I think the movement is on the right track.

As for whether Floyd's murderers were racially motivated, I agree that there's not enough evidence to come to a conclusive answer. Regardless, the movement is trying to make sure Floyd's murderers face justice in a court of law, and that's a good thing, I think, regardless of whether or not they were racist.

Blacks are about twice as likely to be killed by cops as white people are, I believe. If this isn't because of individual cops being racist, then its indicitive of racism existing on a systemic level. I don't think there's a possible reason one race would be killed more often that doesn't ultimately come down to racism in one form or another.
 
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by violent protesters do you mean the ones throwing rocks and flipping over cop cars? I feel like those things aren't as bad as murder. I think that the number one thing the protesters want is justice reform to the ends of having increased police accountability and less police killings. The two major victories of the movement so far have been increased police transparency (requiring police to wear bodycams) and slowly changing the culture wherein its taboo to prosecute police. Both of these things are huge victories in terms of fighting police brutality, so I think the movement is on the right track.

As for whether Floyd's murderers were racially motivated, I agree that there's not enough evidence to come to a conclusive answer. Regardless, the movement is trying to make sure Floyd's murderers face justice in a court of law, and that's a good thing, I think, regardless of whether or not they were racist.

Blacks are about twice as likely to be killed by cops as white people are, I believe. If this isn't because of individual cops being racist, then its indicitive of racism existing on a systemic level. I don't think there's a possible reason one race would be killed more often that doesn't ultimately come down to racism in one form or another.
I’m talking about the violent protesters who are burning buildings, looting stores, and harming innocent people. These people are hurting anyone regardless of race, and it’s not caused by cop intervention. There are unfortunately people who are just taking advantage of the chaos. Those are the people I am talking about. To me it’s a crime that Antifa hasn’t been listed as a terrorist organization yet.

Nobody is arguing that the officer shouldn’t be in jail. I’m just tired of people pretending that this is a racially motivated issue when it’s not.

It’s definitely less than twice as likely, and it’s not because of racism. It’s a product of the fact that the “bad parts” of the country, the parts with the highest amount of crime, happen to be majority black. Don’t take this the wrong way, I don’t think that there’s any relation there, I think that it’s simply a coincidence.
 

Ragnarokio

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I’m talking about the violent protesters who are burning buildings, looting stores, and harming innocent people.
I'm not convinced any of these things are worse than murder, though I agree many of them are unambiguously wrong.

Nobody is arguing that the officer shouldn’t be in jail. I’m just tired of people pretending that this is a racially motivated issue when it’s not.
That's fair, but as long as BLM is a movement which is fighting against police brutality then I think its a movement you should support on that basis. Not supporting one of the most effective movements in combatting police brutality and corruption within the justice system as a whole on the basis that you don't like that they think some killings are racially motivated probably demonstrates suspect priorites.

It’s definitely less than twice as likely, and it’s not because of racism. It’s a product of the fact that the “bad parts” of the country, the parts with the highest amount of crime, happen to be majority black. Don’t take this the wrong way, I don’t think that there’s any relation there, I think that it’s simply a coincidence.
Its not a coincidence that black people tend to live in the highest crime areas of the city. Its a result of decades of gentrification and other forms of racist systems. To suggest that black people just happened to end up living in ghettos at massively disproportional rates by chance is absurd.

edit: also, in 2019 235 black people were killed by the police and 370 white people were killed by the police. According to the 2017 census there are about 40 million black people and 240 million white people in the states. This puts the chance of an individual black person being shot to death by the police in a given year at about 1 in 170,000 and the chance of an individual white person being shot to death by police in a given year at about 1 in 650,000. The odds of being shot to death by police for a black person are about 4 times as high as the odds for a white person. If you have a problem with these stats or math let me know.
 
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I'm not convinced any of these things are worse than murder, though I agree many of them are unambiguously wrong.



That's fair, but as long as BLM is a movement which is fighting against police brutality then I think its a movement you should support on that basis. Not supporting one of the most effective movements in combatting police brutality and corruption within the justice system as a whole on the basis that you don't like that they think some killings are racially motivated probably demonstrates suspect priorites.



Its not a coincidence that black people tend to live in the highest crime areas of the city. Its a result of decades of gentrification and other forms of racist systems. To suggest that black people just happened to end up living in ghettos at massively disproportional rates by chance is absurd.

edit: also, in 2019 235 black people were killed by the police and 370 white people were killed by the police. According to the 2017 census there are about 40 million black people and 240 million white people in the states. This puts the chance of an individual black person being shot to death by the police in a given year at about 1 in 170,000 and the chance of an individual white person being shot to death by police in a given year at about 1 in 650,000. The odds of being shot to death by police for a black person are about 4 times as high as the odds for a white person. If you have a problem with these stats or math let me know.
By themselves they aren’t as bad as murder, however they’re using the murder of an innocent man as a justification for their crimes, which almost certainly include murders of their own.

But if their reasoning for their protesting are incorrect that’s just going to serve to split us even further. The ends do not necessarily justify the means.

Yes, but that’s not indicative of racism in the current system. Things have certainly changed since the time black people were placed there (Albeit unintentionally) centuries ago. The unfortunate truth is that we can’t change the past, and the way things are going I don’t think we’re going to be able to change the things that need to be changed in order to make these areas better for the future.

You’re looking specifically at people being shot to death. There are other forms of brutality, and while being shot to death is certainly bad, it’s not the only thing that happens. Correct me if I’m wrong, last I checked more white people were shot in general than black people over he course of 2018. Did your source say where these shootings take place? Because most likely they were in the aforementioned “bad” cities.
 

Ragnarokio

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By themselves they aren’t as bad as murder, however they’re using the murder of an innocent man as a justification for their crimes, which almost certainly include murders of their own.
I can certainly agree that capitalizing on protests over the injust death of an innocent man for personal gain is despicable. I'm still not sure its worse than murder, but We seem to agree that they're both bad, so that's fine.

But if their reasoning for their protesting are incorrect that’s just going to serve to split us even further. The ends do not necessarily justify the means.
You think BLM is splitting us further? What does that mean? I think that the ends do justify the means insofar as if something causes positive change that's something good about that thing. If it also comes paired with costs then it might not be justified, but I'm not sure what costs you think there are in the BLM movement.

Yes, but that’s not indicative of racism in the current system. Things have certainly changed since the time black people were placed there (Albeit unintentionally) centuries ago. The unfortunate truth is that we can’t change the past, and the way things are going I don’t think we’re going to be able to change the things that need to be changed in order to make these areas better for the future.
There's already a lot of good stuff happening to help heal these issues. Justice reform, which is the key focus of BLM is a big one. America has something called the school to prison pipeline in which a very large quantity of teenagers in high crime areas are incarcerated for minor crimes, which typically makes it very difficult for them to escape a criminal lifestyle afterwards. One of the goals of justice reform is to stop incarcerating young people and instead provide them access to social services which would equip them with positive skills that will help them find a way of life that doesn't involve crime. There are lots of other things that can be helped. In 2018 Minneapolis made a lot of sweeping changes to housing and zoning laws with the aim of reversing gentrification and allowing poor people (who are disproportionately black) to move into richer portions of the city. There are lots of things that can and are being done to help fix these issues.

I don't know what you mean by unintentionally, but black people were definitely herded into segregated communities intentionally. It was also decades ago rather than centuries ago. Redlining was banned on a federal level in the late 60s (as a result of protests and rioting the types of which we're seeing now). It wasn't such a distant problem. Things have admittedly gotten a lot better, but solutions to fix the damage still need to be applied, and thats part of why BLM is necessary.


You’re looking specifically at people being shot to death. There are other forms of brutality, and while being shot to death is certainly bad, it’s not the only thing that happens. Correct me if I’m wrong, last I checked more white people were shot in general than black people over he course of 2018. Did your source say where these shootings take place? Because most likely they were in the aforementioned “bad” cities.
There are indeed other forms of brutality, but unless those forms of brutality disproportionately target white or black people, then they won't affect the numbers much. If they do disproportionately target white or black people, then that suggests that racism exists on either an individual or systemic level. More white people were shot than black people, yes. Because there are significantly more white people though, an individual white person's chance of being shot is much lower overall. These numbers reflect all the killings across the united states, and although I haven't checked I would suspect they correlate highly with high-crime areas, and that thats a strong contributing factor to the reason blacks are shot so much more proportionally. I was only contesting your statement that black people were less than twice as likely to be killed by police, which was incorrect. It could be that the killings are a result of the aftermath of centuries of systemic racism in the united states, but that doesn't mean they don't need to be addressed, and groups like BLM are doing that.
 
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MW7

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The statement is innocuous, listing only nonviolent ways to support the cause against racism and related issues. Black Lives Matter has an intended meaning, and you pretty much need to want to be offended to have a problem with the substance of what the statement says.
 
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I can certainly agree that capitalizing on protests over the injust death of an innocent man for personal gain is despicable. I'm still not sure its worse than murder, but We seem to agree that they're both bad, so that's fine.



You think BLM is splitting us further? What does that mean? I think that the ends do justify the means insofar as if something causes positive change that's something good about that thing. If it also comes paired with costs then it might not be justified, but I'm not sure what costs you think there are in the BLM movement.



There's already a lot of good stuff happening to help heal these issues. Justice reform, which is the key focus of BLM is a big one. America has something called the school to prison pipeline in which a very large quantity of teenagers in high crime areas are incarcerated for minor crimes, which typically makes it very difficult for them to escape a criminal lifestyle afterwards. One of the goals of justice reform is to stop incarcerating young people and instead provide them access to social services which would equip them with positive skills that will help them find a way of life that doesn't involve crime. There are lots of other things that can be helped. In 2018 Minneapolis made a lot of sweeping changes to housing and zoning laws with the aim of reversing gentrification and allowing poor people (who are disproportionately black) to move into richer portions of the city. There are lots of things that can and are being done to help fix these issues.

I don't know what you mean by unintentionally, but black people were definitely herded into segregated communities intentionally. It was also decades ago rather than centuries ago. Redlining was banned on a federal level in the late 60s (as a result of protests and rioting the types of which we're seeing now). It wasn't such a distant problem. Things have admittedly gotten a lot better, but solutions to fix the damage still need to be applied, and thats part of why BLM is necessary.




There are indeed other forms of brutality, but unless those forms of brutality disproportionately target white or black people, then they won't affect the numbers much. If they do disproportionately target white or black people, then that suggests that racism exists on either an individual or systemic level. More white people were shot than black people, yes. Because there are significantly more white people though, an individual white person's chance of being shot is much lower overall. These numbers reflect all the killings across the united states, and although I haven't checked I would suspect they correlate highly with high-crime areas, and that thats a strong contributing factor to the reason blacks are shot so much more proportionally. I was only contesting your statement that black people were less than twice as likely to be killed by police, which was incorrect. It could be that the killings are a result of the aftermath of centuries of systemic racism in the united states, but that doesn't mean they don't need to be addressed, and groups like BLM are doing that.
Anything that shows victimhood is going to create divisiveness.

but none of these things are the main goal of BLM. I’ve heard of the StP pipeline, and once again there’s no evidence of it being indicative of any sort of racism. Yeah, of course I support getting rid of zero tolerance policies, but you don’t need to be in a group pretending that these policies are specifically targeting a certain race in order to combat it.

Nobody was specifically trying to put black people in low income areas, they just didn’t want them in their high-income areas. That’s what I mean by unintentional, and it was at its peak centuries ago. Redlining, once again, is not an inherently racist practice. If anything it’s more classist. It’s still an awful thing, don’t get me wrong, but it’s yet another example of people looking for racism when it’s simply not there. Of course we need more policies to heal, but that’s not what the majority of BLM is about. It’s mainly about trying to end the policies that were mostly ended decades and even centuries ago.

You’ve said my point right there. Any racism is on an individual level. That’s the way it’s going to be, there is absolutely nothing anyone can do to change that. Racist people are going to be racist. That’s not the issue. I will admit I was wrong with the ratios, but my point still stands. BLM is certainly doing good things, but they’re doing it in the name of a problem that doesn’t exist (relatively speaking that is) and for that I can’t support them.

I was actually hoping nobody responded to my original comment, I just wanted to add my two cents without getting too far into it. I’d rather we ended this discussion here. No hard feelings, right?
 

the8thark

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I’d rather we ended this discussion here. No hard feelings, right?
I can agree to that.
We've all said our piece and that's nothing really left to say here.

On a personal note I was a little disappointed that many people here attacked me for my strong belief in equality and that everyone is equal. I guess everyone has their own opinions on things and we should respect them regardless. I'm ok if people disagree with my opinion. We're all different. However attacking me because what I said doesn't neatly fit in with their own opinions, that's wrong. The fact it happened here is quire disappointing.

If people want to follow and support the official BLM movement, that's their own choice. I'm not going to stop them.
If people want to support everyone regardless of their race, that's their choice as well.
All I ask is we stop the hatred on differing opinions.

I don't agree with the majority of the gaming industry supporting BLM. I'd rather they support everyone killed by violent crimes. However me saying this won't change anything. They've made up their mind and I'm ok with that. Their choice.
I will keep supporting all people equally because I believe in equality. A few people attacking me on this will not change that.

I thank you for the discussion that was had here. If you want to continue on this topic, that's fine. I however, will not be commenting in here again. I've said want I need to. I've made my opinions and what I support abundently clear. Thank you for the opportunity to have my opinions aired on this platform.
 

ExLight

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Any racism is on an individual level
:err:
If you're racist, and so are your teachers, your family, your co-workers, your friends, your political representation, or even your religion, how is that an individual level? Do your opinions and actions not influence each other?
Is it not a subculture of hatred that is still around after centuries? Are whole groups people still not influenced and moved by ideals that discriminate different ones based on idiotic stuff like the color of the skin?

You have entire states and countries with racism rooted in their population's heads and even on their laws and policies, same for stuff like companies and social branches like representation in politics. How the **** can you even think racism is an individual problem. Racism isn't individual. If it was made out of rare cases it wouldn't be systematic in many places of the world and the fight for equity would've been successful a long time ago.

I’d rather we ended this discussion here. No hard feelings, right?
I can agree to that.
of course you do lmfao
you started this, you sit here and hear people disagreeing with you
 

Azure Sage

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On a personal note I was a little disappointed that many people here attacked me for my strong belief in equality and that everyone is equal.
That's ironic, considering your statements have nothing to do with true equality. Everything you've said thus far just amounts to "let's forget race and fight all types of oppression". You can't fight oppression while ignoring one type of it. It doesn't matter how uncomfortable it is to admit that systemic racism is still very prevalent, because it's a fact that needs to be addressed. That's what we're facing here. Save the "let's forget race" for after the racists have been silenced for good. You can't ignore the core principle of the opposition (which is racism) and expect to achieve equality. You said you won't reply here again and that's fine, but I want you to read this and think about what the actual black Americans who are dealing with this on a daily basis have to say and listen to it. They are the ones whose voices need to be heard and uplifted. They are the ones who know. If you listen to them and still come out with "let's not focus on race", you are not actually listening. You are just continuing to miss the point. You can't call that true equality. And as long as the system is the way it is, there won't be true equality. That's the whole point of the movement and the protests. I hope you can come to realize that.
 
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:err:
If you're racist, and so are your teachers, your family, your co-workers, your friends, your political representation, or even your religion, how is that an individual level? Do your opinions and actions not influence each other?
Is it not a subculture of hatred that is still around after centuries? Are whole groups people still not influenced and moved by ideals that discriminate different ones based on idiotic stuff like the color of the skin?

You have entire states and countries with racism rooted in their population's heads and even on their laws and policies, same for stuff like companies and social branches like representation in politics. How the **** can you even think racism is an individual problem. Racism isn't individual. If it was made out of rare cases it wouldn't be systematic in many places of the world and the fight for equity would've been successful a long time ago.
You completely misconstrued what I said. I’m not saying that there is no such thing as systemic oppression, I’m saying that in the U.S. any racism through the police and legal system has been mostly ousted, and that the issue at hand isn’t racism, it’s the police in general. When I say “individual” I essentially mean “not government policy.” If certain groups are racist then it’s the individuals choice to be in that group.

Racism isn’t this mass mindset that people have. Nobody is out here celebrating the officers who murdered George Floyd, and nobody is trying to make black people seam like the bad guys. We are all on the same page that racism is bad, we are all on the same page that the police system needs change, what we’re not agreeing on is whether that change is from racism specifically or policy that is brutal towards everyone in high crime areas.

Now can we please end it at this. I clarified my point, now I don't want any part in this conversation anymore.
 

Azure Sage

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You completely misconstrued what I said. I’m not saying that there is no such thing as systemic oppression, I’m saying that in the U.S. any racism through the police and legal system has been mostly ousted, and that the issue at hand isn’t racism, it’s the police in general. When I say “individual” I essentially mean “not government policy.” If certain groups are racist then it’s the individuals choice to be in that group.

Racism isn’t this mass mindset that people have. Nobody is out here celebrating the officers who murdered George Floyd, and nobody is trying to make black people seam like the bad guys. We are all on the same page that racism is bad, we are all on the same page that the police system needs change, what we’re not agreeing on is whether that change is from racism specifically or policy that is brutal towards everyone in high crime areas.

Now can we please end it at this. I clarified my point, now I don't want any part in this conversation anymore.
I'm sorry, but you are just wrong here. Thinking systemic racism has been ousted is, at best, extremely naive, and at worst, willfully ignorant of reality. I don't know where you live, but the only way you can live in America and think racism is not the underlying root in all this is by either not yet breaking out from a sheltered upbringing or by not wanting to face an uncomfortable truth. I'm not going to accuse you of any of that obviously, since I don't know you personally, but I am going to ask that you listen to the voices of people who are at the heart of the injustices happening here. Because if you really think all of what you said, then you aren't listening to them at all. The protests are happening for a reason. The reason is the systemic racism that causes police to be violently deployed against unarmed peaceful protesters of police violence and yet not deployed against people marching on governors offices carrying assault rifles because they're upset they can't go to a crowded restaurant in the middle of a viral pandemic. There is an agenda here and it's plainly obvious to anyone who cares to pay attention.

I don't expect you to reply to me and I don't need you to, since you said you were done. But just as you felt compelled to clarify, I did too. I want you to consider my words. That's all I can really ask.
 

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