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ZD Forum Change Concerns

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Mases

Lord of the Flies
Administrator
Site Staff
Joined
Oct 14, 2007
Location
West Dundee, IL
I don't feel like retreading on old arguments, but in summary - I strongly reject the notion that I don't listen to community members and staff members. I think regurgitating that argument over and over just poisons the well to the lesser informed people who don't know me as well. It creates a very unhealthy environment.

Regarding the Wiki. I think there is a lot of revisionist history about the beginnings of the Zelda Dungeon Wiki in your post, but I'm more concerned about 2016 and onward, as opposed to 2011 and earlier.

I think there is a straw man argument regarding the Wiki. I'm not arguing for a single solution that will improve the Wiki. I'm arguing for quite a few things. I understand one thing doesn't just flip a switch. It's an all of the above approach. I outlined some of those ideas. I agree with virtually every single idea you have for the Wiki, but I reject the notion that it is 'wiki suicide' if we implement 89 out of 90 ideas, just because I disagree about the destination url of a combined forum.
 

DekuNut

I play my drum for you
Joined
Jan 30, 2011
Location
Tangent Universe
I take back my previous argument. At its core, it doesn't matter what our name is. And the ZI peeps seem pretty chill. I like the idea of having them join our community.
Do I prefer this forum style to that one? For sure. But once again it really doesn't matter. It's a forum, that's the big thing. Besides; they have blogs. WHO WANTS TO GET BLOGS BACK!?
Deku out
 

Emma

The Cassandra
Site Staff
Joined
Nov 29, 2008
Location
Vegas
I don't feel like retreading on old arguments, but in summary - I strongly reject the notion that I don't listen to community members and staff members. I think regurgitating that argument over and over just poisons the well to the lesser informed people who don't know me as well. It creates a very unhealthy environment.

Regarding the Wiki. I think there is a lot of revisionist history about the beginnings of the Zelda Dungeon Wiki in your post, but I'm more concerned about 2016 and onward, as opposed to 2011 and earlier.

I think there is a straw man argument regarding the Wiki. I'm not arguing for a single solution that will improve the Wiki. I'm arguing for quite a few things. I understand one thing doesn't just flip a switch. It's an all of the above approach. I outlined some of those ideas. I agree with virtually every single idea you have for the Wiki, but I reject the notion that it is 'wiki suicide' if we implement 89 out of 90 ideas, just because I disagree about the destination url of a combined forum.
See what I mean? You did exactly what I said you would. You didn't listen to a word I said. Insisting that your decision is final. Denying that you don't listen to people while you're actively refusing to listen to anyone here.
If all you do is constantly restate over and over that you mean well and that you stand by your decision despite what everyone here is saying without actually going into their concerns in depth and resulting purely in character insults to dismiss things you don't want to hear (you're constantly saying I'm making things up or trying to leverage something rather than actually addressing my actual statements), all anyone is ever going to see is someone who refuses to listen to his community. You can't insist you don't while you actively do it right in plain sight for everyone to see.

The recent ordeal which people have been calling the ZD Civil War only happened because you refused to do a damn thing when you were presented with irrefutable evidence that a group of staff members were being abusive, torturing people, such as a case where they openly ridiculed someone's depression, another where they mocked a dead sibling. You were given proof of these deeds but instead of dismissing them as was appropriate you insisted nothing was wrong and you let the situation continue, allowing the whole community to suffer under a ridiculous conflict that never would have happened if you acted responsibly on the first instance when it was shown they were bullying people. You didn't tell them "guys you have to stop this behavior or else I'm going to have to let you go". You ignored the sitaution and refused to respond to almost everyone's requests to speak to you about it. So please understand me when I say I have very good reason to doubt your sincerity about your "listening" to people now. You keep acting like this is some genius idea when both communities are very much against the whole thing. You didn't even bother to consider a word I said. You listened to nothing I described about what forums are used for. You didn't awknowledge it, you didn't discuss it. You simply implied your decision stands and that you're offended that people are saying you don't listen while you're not listening.

And there is no revisionist history to the wiki. There is a very firm timeline. I was upset with how Zelda Wiki was being handled, I came to you for help. Initially you outright refused. Then I asked another bureaucrat who agreed with us to convince you to join and you did. Remember I brought you into a chat called Wikipendence. You suggested simply buying Zelda Wiki, and forming your own wiki if you didn't. succeed in the purchase. I thought that your idea to try to buy it was worth a shot but doubted Jason would do it and he didn't. But I rejected your wiki idea. Saying that it was a risky idea that would be hard to get working and that we should try to save ZW. As for the rest of the history, the rest are MY PERSONAL motives and life events which you frankly have no business contradicting. Amy was around for the whole thing, she can very likely confirm the story if you ask her. At the time she suggested abandoning Zelda Wiki too but I didn't want to at the time.

And again on the ways to improve the wiki. I can quote SEVERAL instances on Skype where I very explicitly told you that just one measure will not be enough to help the wiki. That's why I want us to do as many things to help it as possible. However, the forum is an absolutely integral part of it. Without which none of the other parts work.

Compare your analogy to mine. If you only bothered to install 89 parts to a 90 part car, you can't expect it to be "close enough" if that missing part is something that's absolutely crucial like the wheels, engine, steering column, or gas tank. None of the other widgets and gizmos you installed it in are going to do a damn thing without the critical components. And I'm absolutely certain a dedicated ZD forum, not a ZI forum, is absolutely essential to the wiki's survival and growth. It's not optional. I didn't recite my wiki history to you for entertainment purposes. I am not saying this as leverage. I am dead serious. It's absolutely vital to have a ZD forum if you expect the wiki to grow. Will it survive without one? Of course. Will it thrive? Absolutely not. It'll not be able to reach our expectations and dreams without it. It's won't have a sudden death without one. It'll have a slow, agonizing, unending death with the end of any hope of ever surpassing Zelda Wiki.
 

Link Floyd

ᵒⁿ ᵗʰᵉ ʳᵘⁿ
Joined
Sep 23, 2014
I'll be happy as long as the community stays intact, and I believe that it will because we have a very strong bond. At this point, I'm looking forward to the change. It might be hard for some to adjust at first, but I feel that everything will be fine. I don't mind new members of our community, as long as they don't cause any trouble. But we have good staff here so I'm sure if there was any problem, they would take care of it.

EDIT: Also, one question. Are we going to lose our awards during the switch?
 
Last edited:
Joined
Oct 14, 2013
Location
Australia
@Matt

As a teply to Matt's long message here I will say this.

@Mases It is very unwise to do things without keeping in good communication with the people you are working for. It does not matter if you are helping them greatly even. It's nice if you are but people want to feel ownership of any good improvements that happen. Talk to the people before you make decisions. Ask them what's best for them. If you ask the right questions, the people will tell you the best way to go. As they know what's best for them.

Just saying "This is the right way and I don't give a **** if anyone disagrees" is a rather arrogant attitude. Sure it improves ZD and ZI but it wins you no friends and might also lose you valuable site visitors and forum members. Proving that you care by listening to your userbase is more important than always trying to do what you think is right. ZD and ZI exist for your userbase's benefit, not your own. You could say, give the customer what the customer wants and they'll buy it. Buy it with our page views and forum memberships. Ignore the user base and the user base will desert you. No one wants to be part of a forum and website that has an arrogant admin that never consults with his userbase before enacting changes.

In short it does not matter how good a change is. The people want to be consulted on it before it happens. So they can have their say on it. A decision made without consulting your userbase is the worst decision of all. Also no one person is perfect. It's always nice to have feedback. As long as the admin takes the feedback into proper consideration, not just listens as a token gesture then does nothing with the feedback received.

Respect the userbase and the user userbase will respect you. Failure to respect the userbase and they'll leave. That simple.

Your choice, if you want to keep the ZD userbase you know what to do.
 

Emma

The Cassandra
Site Staff
Joined
Nov 29, 2008
Location
Vegas
EDIT: Also, one question. Are we going to lose our awards during the switch?
Almost certainly. That kind of thing doesn't like to transfer. However, the staff will try their hardest to make sure they're all restored manually. But they're only human. I lost some of my awards when we switched to Xenforo. If you are concerned, record them, their name, description, date, everything. That way you can make sure you're not accidentally overlooked. That is if there is a switch of course. But it's never a bad idea to be prepared.
 

Jimmu

Administrator
Staff member
Administrator
Hey guys, sorry that I have largely been MIA over the past few days, it has been rather busy time for me.

I have posted a message over on ZI forums in their thread discussing the changes/merges, which I have quoted below. Regardless of any mergers and changes that are to happen on the forum I will be endeavouring to maintain the current atmosphere that is found here as I am extremely happy with how far the forums have come in the past few months and am grateful for everyone's contributions in working through past issues, the forum has become a much better place now.

I really do encourage continued feedback in here as Mases is reading these posts, and I will be seeking to have a discussion with him and the other forum staff on the key opinions and concerns that are brought up here before changes are made. Mases has acknowledged that he has had issues with communication on the changes, so following that acknowledgement I ask that we please keep respectful in your replies as I am sure now he has taken that on board and will be able to discuss these concerns further moving forward.

Jimmy.F27 said:
Hello there everyone, my name is Jimmy and I am one of two current Administrators of the Zelda Dungeon Forums.



The community over at ZD Forums is fantastic, and regardless of whichever way a merger is set, I will ensure that myself and our staff are doing our best to maintain the current fantastic community spirit that has now become the norm following the complications that occurred back in October. The current direction of the Zelda Dungeon forums has been really great to see and I am very happy to have seen the forums come into such a good position again.



I am sure that internally, any issues in the past can be left there moving forward, as I am sure that members on ZD and ZI alike both wish to maintain a healthy, friendly, and welcoming community. We all share a common interest in the Zelda series (and will surely find our other similarities moving forward), and there is absolutely no need to be hostile toward each other. With the merger of staff and forums any "toxic" behaviour will not be accepted; Mases has noted that the forums will be run and structured in a way very similar to the current management at ZD so that we can have a great community moving forward (I am sure that other ZD members can vouch for the current staff's handling of the forums).

It is important to me to maintain a lot of the culture from ZD and the customisations we have on our forums, which I will explain some of briefly below (other ZDers may feel free to add to this list). I would also appreciate to hear something similar from ZI members, as I am keen to hear of the benefits of your community (the ability to have blogs stands out to me straight away).



Plug-ins/add-ons/features:

- Shoutbox

- Social Groups

- Awards

- Money/Credit System

- Arcade



Culture/Structure:

- Community Coordinators & Event Staff (manage various events throughout the year on the forums)

- A rules thread/section (not sure if one exists here)

- Lorule Lounge (recently added section/forum that is a laid back place to post much more casually. Currently requires a subscription on ZD using the credit system)



I do feel that ZD's forum software Xenforo seems superior to this IP Board for these purposes, however for reasons that haven't been fully and explicitly described to me it seems that we will be switching to IP Board. If this is the case every effort will be made to replicate the add-ons from ZD within this software. I do see frustration from the ZD community regarding the lack of communication from higher-ups, and the forum staff of ZD including myself have been largely left out of discussion regarding the forum thus far. I believe Mases does intend to discuss the changes more in-depth with our forum staff before the change, this is just me noting that at the time of writing this post I have not been as involved as I would have liked to have been and therefore am not fully aware exactly what will be happening regarding a changes at this stage.



I'll be checking back here for any questions or comments as often as I am able.



Thanks everyone!
 

Azure Sage

March onward forever...
Staff member
ZD Legend
Comm. Coordinator
Not very, it gets the lest amount of user traffic of all the sites by miles. But it has a relatively dedicated member base and it continues to see use each and every day so it sticks around.
This is actually really surprising to me. Can you tell exactly what the amount of traffic is for all of these things? It'd be easier for me to get a grasp if I had a visual comparison.
 

Spiritual Mask Salesman

CHIMer Dragonborn
Staff member
Comm. Coordinator
Site Staff
I think this word Toxic gets thrown around way too much. It's also very subjective. We've had members here say that other members here are very toxic to the climate of the forums. [And those same members return the favor by claiming the others are toxic]. Now we are using that same term to define the commentary on another website, and the message boards. There is a heck of a lot of toxicity talk here...

Changes are happening. After I bought Zelda Informer I had lunch with their Editor-in-Chief. One of the first things I said was. 'The Cold War is over'. It's not a competition anymore. The horse race is over. Being pro-ZD doesn't mean you are anti-ZI. [Not that this sentiment made sense in the first place].

Whatever the norm was during the pre-January 2016 era, is no longer the norm and won't be anymore. I was toying with the idea of just bringing the websites together completely. As one massive website. After giving that some thought, I shot that idea down. Too much branding involved. The Zelda Dungeon brand is first and foremost its guides/walkthroughs. That's what the website will focus on from this point forward. There will be a renewed focus on Guides/Walkthroughs, as well as the expansion of our encyclopedic content. Zelda Informer will maintain its blog/news setup. Forums are moving to Zelda Informer.

The websites will remain separate but there is going to be heavy integration between the two. This is both navigationally and also in concept. The websites will complement each other. We will use a common forum, a common wiki, a single group of walkthroughs, a single blog for news/editorials, etc...
I actually had a brief chat with Nathaniel. He seems pretty cool.

---

At the end of the day guys I think even if the forum URL changes it isn't like the new ZI forum won't be Zelda Dungeon. I think we all can agree that really it's the memberbase that makes this place unique. By leaving, that is what will be the deteriment. If we stick it out it's not a total loss.

The Emotes, themes, the SB, we won't be losing them we'll just have to rebuild them back up. IP boards allows theme and Emote customization, it also has a SB plugin. (Here we're literally using a glitch for the S:cool:.

So yeah, it's not like it's all over. It'll be over if we all part ways, I'm sure of that.
 

Spiritual Mask Salesman

CHIMer Dragonborn
Staff member
Comm. Coordinator
Site Staff
I take back my previous argument. At its core, it doesn't matter what our name is. And the ZI peeps seem pretty chill. I like the idea of having them join our community.
Do I prefer this forum style to that one? For sure. But once again it really doesn't matter. It's a forum, that's the big thing. Besides; they have blogs. WHO WANTS TO GET BLOGS BACK!?
Deku out
Blogs was gone?
 

Mases

Lord of the Flies
Administrator
Site Staff
Joined
Oct 14, 2007
Location
West Dundee, IL
@Matt - I think there is selective memory and revisionist history here. There was a lot of pressure from a whole assortment of people that were very much against what you had done to this community. 4-5 months ago, I was getting a lot of difference advice from various people. On one hand, I was being heavily told about the culture that you, DarkMaster, and others were bringing to this forum, and how it was paramount that I put an end to that problem. There were calls of banning, red lines were drawn over what I must do, etc... It was not healthy, especially coming from the core of the forum staff.

On your end, there was pretty much the same thing. Repeated calls for me to fire half the forum staff. You were insisting time and time again that I make you an administrator of the forum and allow you to run things.

Am I glad that I declined some of former forum staff members requests of banning you, DM, and a few others? Yes - since I valued your input to the website, and your work at the Wiki. To me, that wasn't worth losing, and I also felt that the negativity you were spewing, was nothing unusual for the forum. It's part of the norm here at Zelda Dungeon. I think this thread is just that same continuation of it.

Am I glad that I declined your request to be made an administrator and forcibly remove staff members? Yes - I gave it some thought and had some conversations with Locke and some of the current staff. Making you an administrator would created an environment where not only is certain behavior tolerable, but it is actually rewarded.

The end result was that some people left.... There were a lot of doomsday scenarios and threats that were made about what would happened to the forum if I didn't act quickly and decisively. Low and behold, we are fine here today.
 

Dabombster

Do the thing
Site Staff
Joined
Jan 9, 2008
Location
Probably somewhere
Mases said:
@Matt - I think there is selective memory and revisionist history here. There was a lot of pressure from a whole assortment of people that were very much against what you had done to this community. 4-5 months ago, I was getting a lot of difference advice from various people. On one hand, I was being heavily told about the culture that you, DarkMaster, and others were bringing to this forum, and how it was paramount that I put an end to that problem. There were calls of banning, red lines were drawn over what I must do, etc... It was not healthy, especially coming from the core of the forum staff.

On your end, there was pretty much the same thing. Repeated calls for me to fire half the forum staff. You were insisting time and time again that I make you an administrator of the forum and allow you to run things.

This reminds me of the conversation Matt and I had the other day actually... I actually don't think I need to even read his posts in here, so I just kind of skipped over them.

Admittedly I'm not active here anymore, but I've seen more forum changes than the majority of people here over the years. They aren't bad, it's just change. Everyone seems worried about posts transferring, or people staying. If anything like previous forum changes, I'd safely assume everything is transferred. I'm not sure why everyone thinks everything would go down the tube because of it. It's an opportunity for the community to grow and to get to know new people. Sure, some people will be rude, but you get that almost anywhere you go. Is it worth not being part of the community you seem so passionate about because of a change? Guess that's up to you to decide.

I've known Mases for a while. We don't agree on a lot of things, and when I was staff here I was generally the first person to tell him I thought something was stupid. From what I see though, it seems like you're all just worried about losing friends/posts/status here. If you don't even worry about that, and just stick with the community you know and love, things won't really change much at all in the end. Just a different banner and layout, really.
 
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