Wind Waker Messes the Timeline Up

[DarkestLink]

Sorry if this is in the wrong forum. I’m new.

I actually asked Axle about this a few weeks ago on the Curiosity Shop, but he seemed confused by the question. Basically, I was expressing my confusion over Wind Waker’s place on the timeline. It’s supposedly in the adult timeline, yet the game incorporates elements from both timelines.

Here are a few of reasons Wind Waker fits the adult timeline:

1) Ganondorf was referenced to being sealed in the Sacred Realm. This is the largest bit of evidence in favor of putting Wind Waker in the adult timeline.

2) Ganondorf refering to his defeat at the hands of the Hero of Time.

3) The sages are depicted in the Hyrule basement, suggesting this happened on the adult timeline.

However, there is even more evidence to suggest this game follows the child timeline.

1) At the near beginning, we are told that children in Outset Island get their green tunics when they are the same age as the Hero of Time. Well if this were the adult timeline, I would expect Wind Waker Link to be 17-19. Instead, Wind Waker Link is 10-12, implying this is coming from the child timeline.

2) The Hero in the legends is depicted as a kid. This would imply that the story was passed down from the child timeline.

3) We see the King of Hyrule in Wind Waker. He did not appear in the adult timeline, but is known to have been around in the child timeline.

4) The King of Red Lions directly references Majora's Mask.

When the Hero of Time was called to embark on another journey and left the land of Hyrule, he was separated from the elements that made him a hero.

And Majora's Mask takes place on the child timeline.

In the end, not only does this cast doubt onto the idea that Wind Waker is a part of the adult timeline, but it makes you wonder if, perhaps, the developers had intended both timelines to somehow end up as one whole timeline.

Feel free to share your thoughts.

 

[A Link In Time]

There is no empirical evidence documenting Link's age in The Wind Waker. Who's to say that Link isn't in the 17-19 age range? Perhaps he was late to puberty and therefore appears younger. Never take a person's age at face value. when I trot through my school and see the five foot tall freshman I'm taken aback and ponder, "Wow. Are these people truly their age?"

Time certainly flies... I can't believe you're
already old enough to wear these clothes.

Don't look so disappointed, dear one!
Just try them on.
Today is a day to celebrate! It is the day
that you become the same age as the young
hero spoken of in all the legends.
You only have to wear them for one day, so
don't look so down. Be proud, child!

You have to recall that Link was already considered the Hero of Time as a child when he was eleven years old merely not apt enough to wield the Master Swprd/. It's probable that perhaps he reached the age of eleven, however, I deem my earlier explanation to be the more likely.

An equally plausible explanation in your OP itself:

2) The Hero in the legends is depicted as a kid. This would imply that the story was passed down from the child timeline.

What proof do you have for the King of Red Lions appearing in the child timeline? I never recall seeing him in Majora's Mask, Twilight Princess, or Four Swords Adventures. Your quote from Majora's Mask fails to verify your claim and in fact contradicts your argument for Link set out on his journey after defeating Ganondorf.

Of course the timeline is subjective as the franchise is intended to be loosely interpreted as a legend. Every game functions surprisingly well independent of another sans a few direct sequels like Adventure of Link and Majora's Mask.

 

[Cfrock]

1) At the near beginning, we are told that children in Outset Island get their green tunics when they are the same age as the Hero of Time. Well if this were the adult timeline, I would expect Wind Waker Link to be 17-19. Instead, Wind Waker Link is 10-12, implying this is coming from the child timeline.

The tradition on Outset says that the children get the clothes when they come of age. It appears that the tradition has changed somewhat since it began (like all traditions in the real-world do) and it doesn't indicate the Hero of Time's literal age anymore. Some cultures need young boys to become 'men' in a social sense at younger ages than what we would consider now (18) and so the tradition was perhaps adapted for this purpose since Outset is a very isolated island which seems to rely heavily on catching wild pigs as well fishing (Orca seems to have a large number of fishing spears to support this).

2) The Hero in the legends is depicted as a kid. This would imply that the story was passed down from the child timeline.

I was actually wondering this very same thing only the other day but it seems that this is just an artistic decision to reinforce the connection between the Hero of Time and the Hero of Winds. Artistic on whose part though? It is most likely that it was the game designers doing it so there weren't two depictions of Link in the game which may have been confusing. There is also the possibility that it is an artistic decision on the part of Hyrule's historians. When they produced those images that record the legend they may have simply been conforming to an artistic ideal, another thing which happens in the real-world.

3) We see the King of Hyrule in Wind Waker. He did not appear in the adult timeline, but is known to have been around in the child timeline.

There have been many kings of Hyrule. The Minish Cap, A Link To The Past, The Wind Waker and Adventure of Link all have a king and they are all different kings. Daphne's Nohansen Hyrule is just a different king to the others. After the events of Ocarina of Time it is most likely that Zelda became Queen and continued the Royal Bloodline. Daphnes is almost certainly a descendant of hers.

4) The King of Red Lions directly references Majora's Mask.

When the Hero of Time was called to embark on another journey and left the land of Hyrule, he was separated from the elements that made him a hero.

And Majora's Mask takes place on the child timeline.

That isn't a direct reference. He merely states that the Hero of Time left Hyrule. The mention of adventure is significant to us because we have Majora's Mask, but for the people living in the Adult Timeline, and the King of Red Lions, it is simply a legend passed down through the ages to explain the Hero's disappearance.
Since Princess Zelda is the one to send the Hero of Time away, perhaps she herself told her people that the hero who saved them had embarked on an adventure so as to give them hope that someone would save them in future crisis. Remember, the intro to TWW tells us that when Ganon returned, the people had faith that the Hero of Time would return as well. We know the Hero's Shade in Twilight Princess (Child Timeline) is the Hero of Time so Link obviously returned to Hyrule after Majora's Mask.
If the King of Red Lions was directly referencing Majora's Mask, the legends behind The Wind Waker wouldn't make sense. It's a good job that there is reason enough, I feel, to believe that he isn't.

In the end, not only does this cast doubt onto the idea that Wind Waker is a part of the adult timeline, but it makes you wonder if, perhaps, the developers had intended both timelines to somehow end up as one whole timeline.

I don't disagree that these points cast doubt but I do feel that there are counter-arguments which are adequate enough for us to believe the official timeline. I see no issues raised by these points about The Wind Waker for the reasons stated above. They can all be explained without resorting to wild speculation (a little speculation is needed though) and so I don't feel they mess things up the way you do.

 

[DarkestLink]

There is no empirical evidence documenting Link's age in The Wind Waker. Who's to say that Link isn't in the 17-19 age range? Perhaps he was late to puberty and therefore appears younger. Never take a person's age at face value. when I trot through my school and see the five foot tall freshman I'm taken aback and ponder, "Wow. Are these people truly their age?"

Technically this is true, but somehow I doubt Nintendo had this in mind. Not to mention he is addressed as a child in PH if you talk to the Bartender and there's Linebeck, who's always calling him "kid" or "squirt".

You have to recall that Link was already considered the Hero of Time as a child when he was eleven years old merely not apt enough to wield the Master Swprd/. It's probable that perhaps he reached the age of eleven, however, I deem my earlier explanation to be the more likely.

Actually Rauru directly states that this is not true. Link is not considered the Hero of Time at his young age.

Only one worthy of the title "Hero of Time" can pull it from the Pedestal of Time....However, you were too young to be the Hero of Time....Therefore your spirit was sealed here for seven years.

What proof do you have for the King of Red Lions appearing in the child timeline? I never recall seeing him in Majora's Mask, Twilight Princess, or Four Swords Adventures.

Ocarina of Time. Zelda references him and we see Ganondorf bowing to him through the window.

Your quote from Majora's Mask fails to verify your claim and in fact contradicts your argument for Link set out on his journey after defeating Ganondorf.

Pardon? I don't recall quoting anything from Majora's Mask. Just Wind Waker. And can you rephrase this sentence? I feel like I missed something here.

 

[Cfrock]

Ocarina of Time. Zelda references him and we see Ganondorf bowing to him through the window.

Not the same king.

The King is never mentioned after Ganondorf takes the Triforce. At least at the end of A Link To The Past we see that Link brought the king back to life. No such thing is even alluded to in Ocarina of Time so that king probably didn't survive Ganondorf's rise to power.

This is from The Wind Waker's intro:

The boy's tale was passed down through
generations until it became legend...

But then...a day came when a fell wind
began to blow across the kingdom.

"Through generations until it became legend."
Hyrule was clearly flooded hundreds of years after Ocarina of Time so whoever the king we saw Ganondorf bow to is almost certainly dead long before the world was flooded. That means the king in Ocarina of Time is definately not the King of Red Lions/Daphnes Nohansen Hyrule.

 

[DarkestLink]

The tradition on Outset says that the children get the clothes when they come of age. It appears that the tradition has changed somewhat since it began (like all traditions in the real-world do) and it doesn't indicate the Hero of Time's literal age anymore. Some cultures need young boys to become 'men' in a social sense at younger ages than what we would consider now (18) and so the tradition was perhaps adapted for this purpose since Outset is a very isolated island which seems to rely heavily on catching wild pigs as well fishing (Orca seems to have a large number of fishing spears to support this).

Now I could be completely wrong on this, but isn't the "Coming of Age" in Japan 19? This would explain why adult Link is considered 19. But if Wind Waker Link is celebrating his "Coming of Age", wouldn't he be 19? The opening for Wind Waker mentions both "Coming of Age" and "The same age as the hero". So the only logical reason I can see them giving Wind Waker Link his tunic is if they were going by the Hero's age and the hero was a child. This would, again, imply the child timeline.

I was actually wondering this very same thing only the other day but it seems that this is just an artistic decision to reinforce the connection between the Hero of Time and the Hero of Winds. Artistic on whose part though? It is most likely that it was the game designers doing it so there weren't two depictions of Link in the game which may have been confusing. There is also the possibility that it is an artistic decision on the part of Hyrule's historians. When they produced those images that record the legend they may have simply been conforming to an artistic ideal, another thing which happens in the real-world.

Well...seeing how the Hero of Winds didn't exist yet, I wouldn't say it's on the Hylian's part. As for Nintendo...you could be right, but I just think it's more likely they weren't thinking about this and Anouma is just sorta making the timeline, as well as its mistakes, up as he goes along.

There have been many kings of Hyrule. The Minish Cap, A Link To The Past, The Wind Waker and Adventure of Link all have a king and they are all different kings. Daphne's Nohansen Hyrule is just a different king to the others. After the events of Ocarina of Time it is most likely that Zelda became Queen and continued the Royal Bloodline. Daphnes is almost certainly a descendant of hers.

I considered this, but the Hyrule King in Wind Waker seems to know Ganondorf directly. Not to mention he refers to his mistakes in the end. I'm assuming those mistakes are ignoring his daughter's warnings about Ganondorf. I say this because we weren't introduced to any others. There's also the fact that he seems to actually know the Hero of Time.

That isn't a direct reference. He merely states that the Hero of Time left Hyrule. The mention of adventure is significant to us because we have Majora's Mask, but for the people living in the Adult Timeline, and the King of Red Lions, it is simply a legend passed down through the ages to explain the Hero's disappearance.

But how would he know about Child Link going on another journey? How did he know he left Hyrule? How did he know the Triforce split?

Since Princess Zelda is the one to send the Hero of Time away, perhaps she herself told her people that the hero who saved them had embarked on an adventure so as to give them hope that someone would save them in future crisis. Remember, the intro to TWW tells us that when Ganon returned, the people had faith that the Hero of Time would return as well. We know the Hero's Shade in Twilight Princess (Child Timeline) is the Hero of Time so Link obviously returned to Hyrule after Majora's Mask.

...Zelda didn't send Link away on another Journey and she didn't send him outside of Hyrule. She just sent him back to his original time. So how would she know he went on another journey?

If the King of Red Lions was directly referencing Majora's Mask, the legends behind The Wind Waker wouldn't make sense.

And thus we have our problem. XD Maybe he wasn't refering to MM, but I would see no reason for anybody in the Adult Timeline to know that Link was going to leave Hyrule when the motivation for doing so didn't happen until he made it back to the past (Navi's leaving).

I don't disagree that these points cast doubt but I do feel that there are counter-arguments which are adequate enough for us to believe the official timeline. I see no issues raised by these points about The Wind Waker for the reasons stated above. They can all be explained without resorting to wild speculation (a little speculation is needed though) and so I don't feel they mess things up the way you do.

Ehhh the timeline itself is a rather...messy, I think. But this was just one of the most confusing parts for me.

Not the same king."Through generations until it became legend."
Hyrule was clearly flooded hundreds of years after Ocarina of Time so whoever the king we saw Ganondorf bow to is almost certainly dead long before the world was flooded. That means the king in Ocarina of Time is definately not the King of Red Lions/Daphnes Nohansen Hyrule.

But isn't the king a ghost? Either way, seeing how the world had been flooded for generations, I don't see how any king would be alive, not just the OoT king.

 

[Cfrock]

Now I could be completely wrong on this, but isn't the "Coming of Age" in Japan 19? This would explain why adult Link is considered 19. But if Wind Waker Link is celebrating his "Coming of Age", wouldn't he be 19? The opening for Wind Waker mentions both "Coming of Age" and "The same age as the hero". So the only logical reason I can see them giving Wind Waker Link his tunic is if they were going by the Hero's age and the hero was a child. This would, again, imply the child timeline.

The coming of age in Japan is of no real consequence. The coming of age on Outset Island is what's important here. From what we see in-game we have to presume that it is fairly young, around 12-13, but that's not unusual. Judiasm sees a boy become a man at 13, for example. The opening only mentions the 'coming of age' part and makes it clear that this custom is exclusive to Outset Island:

On a certain island, it became customary to
garb boys in green when they came of age.

It never says 'same age as the Hero of Time.' Link's grandma says that and that is very important here. The 'same age' part comes exclusively from her interpretation of the legend. We saw the actual legend presented as an illustrated book in the intro sequence and it never says that part, so we should not take The Wind Waker Link to literally be the same age as Ocarina of Time Link.

Well...seeing how the Hero of Winds didn't exist yet, I wouldn't say it's on the Hylian's part. As for Nintendo...you could be right, but I just think it's more likely they weren't thinking about this and Anouma is just sorta making the timeline, as well as its mistakes, up as he goes along.

I only referred to The Wind Waker Link as Hero of Winds because I felt it would be easier to read. When I spoke of the connection I just meant the connection that both Ocarina of Time Link (Hero of Time) and The Wind Waker Link (Hero of Winds) are chosen by the Gods to be the hero. Rather than have an image of the Hero of Time that was vastly different from The Wind Waker Link, the game designers chose to just represent him as more or less the same.
As for the Hylian historians, I never said they depicted the Hero of Winds at all. I referred to the images of the Hero of Time found in Hyrule Castle and the book in the intro.

I also think The Wind Waker is one of the first examples of Nintendo deliberately acknowledging a series timeline. There's too much evidence in how The Wind Waker's story relates to Ocarina of Time's, the fact that it is a coherent continuation and even the physical evidence of the stained glass windows depicting the Sages. The Wind Waker also shot dead the 'Single Link' and 'Single Timeline' Theories, so I don't think Anouma is just making it up as he goes.

I considered this, but the Hyrule King in Wind Waker seems to know Ganondorf directly. Not to mention he refers to his mistakes in the end. I'm assuming those mistakes are ignoring his daughter's warnings about Ganondorf. I say this because we weren't introduced to any others. There's also the fact that he seems to actually know the Hero of Time.

The reason why The Wind Waker's king knows Ganondorf is because he was king when Ganon returned, as detailed in the game's intro. Ganon returned to Hyrule after being defeated by the Hero of Time and started wreaking havoc once more before eventually being sealed again by the flood. Daphnes Nohansen Hyrule was king during that time. That is how he knows Ganon. His mistakes also relate to that period of time, when, instead of taking action to save his kingdom, Daphnes Nohansen Hyrule sat back waiting for a hero to rise up and save his kingdom. This is why he plays a more active role in bringing an end to Ganon during the course of the game.
He also only talks of the Hero of Time by referring to legends and tales passed down over time. He doesn't appear to know the Hero of Time in the same way he knows Ganon.

But how would he know about Child Link going on another journey? How did he know he left Hyrule? How did he know the Triforce split?

He doesn't know, that's what the point I was trying to make. Let me clarify.
We know Link went on another adventure (Majora's Mask) after he was returned to his time. Nobody on the Adult Timeline knew that though. There is a legend on the Adult Timeline that simply says the Hero of Time never came back:

The people believed that the Hero of Time
would again come to save them.

...But the hero did not appear.

Later on, the King of Red Lions says this:

When the Hero of Time was called to
embark on another journey and left the
land of Hyrule, he was separated from the
elements that made him a hero.

It is said that at that time, the Triforce of
Courage was split into eight shards and
hidden throughout the land.

He clearly does not know what happend and has to rely solely upon legends himself. He does not know Link left on an adventure, he was simply told that and had no choice but to accept it as fact. He believes the Hero of Time embarked on another journey, basically.

One of the best things about The Wind Waker in general is that it gives us great insight into how the passage of time can obscure history. It's almost a theme of the game and a big reason why I think Nintendo should explore the history of Hyrule further in future titles. What we know as fact has been twisted into legend for the inhabitants of the Adult Timeline's Hyrule. Most of what these characters say about the actions of the Hero of Time cannot be taken literally since they do not and never have known the facts the way we do. That's why the game continues from Ocarina so explicitly, so that we as an audince can appreciate how history is blurred with the passage of time.
One of the best and most amusing pieces of evidence for this is how the Triforce has come to be known as the Triumph Forks.

...Zelda didn't send Link away on another Journey and she didn't send him outside of Hyrule. She just sent him back to his original time. So how would she know he went on another journey?

She doesn't. I never said she did know. What I said was that after she sent the Hero of Time back in time, she may have then told her subjects in the Adult Timeline that the Hero went on an adventure simply to placate them and give them hope that they would be protected in a future crisis. This hope is evidently present in Hyrulian society because it is detailed in the legend at the beginning of The Wind Waker.
I'm not saying she knows what the Hero of Time did in the Child Timeline, I'm saying she may have made up a false story to make her subjects feel more at ease.

If the King of Red Lions was directly referencing Majora's Mask, the legends behind The Wind Waker wouldn't make sense.

And thus we have our problem. XD Maybe he wasn't refering to MM, but I would see no reason for anybody in the Adult Timeline to know that Link was going to leave Hyrule when the motivation for doing so didn't happen until he made it back to the past (Navi's leaving).

As I have said, no one on the Adult Timeline did know. They only have legends to work from so they simply believe the Hero of Time left Hyrule on an adventure. When Zelda sent the Hero of Time back in time, the timeline split, so on the Adult Timeline, the Hero of Time was gone completely. It is at this point, knowing the Hero can never return, that it seems likely the Princess invented a false legend that made her people (and subsequent generations) believe the Hero of Time was on an adventure of some kind.
Because we know the Hero of Time did go on an adventure, it is all too easy for us to see this as a reference to Majora's Mask. But when we look at it from the most likely perspective of the people living in the Adult Timeline, it makes sense that it would be nothing more than the legend it is and not a record of hard fact.

But isn't the king a ghost? Either way, seeing how the world had been flooded for generations, I don't see how any king would be alive, not just the OoT king.

The issue here is the nature of the King of Red Lions. When he appears as Daphnes Nohansen Hyrule it is easy to see him as a spirit, given how he teleports around, but the King of Red Lions is very real. It may be that the boat was literally just a wooden boat which now houses the spirit of Daphnes Nohansen Hyrule so that he may have a physical presence on The Great Sea. While in Hyrule, his spirit may be able to leave the boat and manifest in his human image. It is interesting to note that when he does this, the actual boat remains totally stationary and lifeless, giving some credence to this notion.
Basically, it seems likely that the king is indeed dead, probably died in the flood, but his spirit has remained and basically haunts a red boat so that the king may help prevent Ganon from achieving his goals in the future, which is exactly what he does.

 

[Locke]

This would explain why adult Link is considered 19.

Semantics, but Adult OoT-Link is considered 16. source

But isn't the king a ghost? Either way, seeing how the world had been flooded for generations, I don't see how any king would be alive, not just the OoT king.

The king lives that long for the same reason that Ganondorf lives that long. He's under the influence of the flood seal. Remember that he has an escape portal just like Ganondorf's.

You didn't mention the Legend of the Fairy, so I will.

It is said that long ago, a boy garbed in green known as the Hero of Time saved this land.
However, on a certain island, there is also a story of the fairy who saved that hero...

It is said that the Hero of Time met the fairy in the midst of his travels.
The fairy appeared before the Hero, who had found himself lost in darkness.
With a mystic power, it would float in midair, dancing above his head like a burst balloon.

After the fairy handed the lost Hero a map, it flew off as quickly as it had appeared.
Better able to foresee places of danger than the Hero, the fairy marked them on a map.
The Legend goes on to say the quest of the Hero of Time was saved by this plump figure...

Fairies live for thousands of years... but this odd fairy was a bit different.
This mystical fairy was born near a lake, and when he met the Hero, he was but 35.
Beyond that, there is little known about that fairy...

The Little-Known Legend of the Fairy's 35th Birthday
On one island, they celebrate one's 35th birthday with a green coat and red pants.
They do this in hope of becoming like the legendary fairy, Tingle!

There's your direct MM reference.


Actually, when I think of WW messing up the timeline, I think of how it bumped LttP out of its spot as OoT's sequel. It took them ten years to clean up after that little mishap, and they did a rather sloppy job of it.

 

[JuicieJ]

Actually, when I think of WW messing up the timeline, I think of how it bumped LttP out of its spot as OoT's sequel. It took them ten years to clean up after that little mishap, and they did a rather sloppy job of it.

It had to happen. There was a continuity issue between OoT's adult ending and ALttP's backstory due to Link returning to his own time and the Triforce remaining split. There was no possible way OoT's adult ending could be presented as an accurate depiction of the Imprisoning War, and Aonuma knew this. He would have fixed it by making FSA the Imprisoning War, but nooooo...

Spoiler

 

[DarkestLink]

The coming of age in Japan is of no real consequence. The coming of age on Outset Island is what's important here. From what we see in-game we have to presume that it is fairly young, around 12-13, but that's not unusual. Judiasm sees a boy become a man at 13, for example. The opening only mentions the 'coming of age' part and makes it clear that this custom is exclusive to Outset Island:

It never says 'same age as the Hero of Time.' Link's grandma says that and that is very important here. The 'same age' part comes exclusively from her interpretation of the legend. We saw the actual legend presented as an illustrated book in the intro sequence and it never says that part, so we should not take The Wind Waker Link to literally be the same age as Ocarina of Time Link.

This still bring the question of why she would garb him in the green tunic. Whether she's right or wrong, she says they are garbed when they are the same age. So, under adult timeline, why would she garb him when he's so much younger?

I only referred to The Wind Waker Link as Hero of Winds because I felt it would be easier to read. When I spoke of the connection I just meant the connection that both Ocarina of Time Link (Hero of Time) and The Wind Waker Link (Hero of Winds) are chosen by the Gods to be the hero. Rather than have an image of the Hero of Time that was vastly different from The Wind Waker Link, the game designers chose to just represent him as more or less the same.
As for the Hylian historians, I never said they depicted the Hero of Winds at all. I referred to the images of the Hero of Time found in Hyrule Castle and the book in the intro.

Actually, this brings another question to light...why on earth is Link depicted as a kid in the ancient stories and as an adult in the statue in Hyrule Castle?

I also think The Wind Waker is one of the first examples of Nintendo deliberately acknowledging a series timeline. There's too much evidence in how The Wind Waker's story relates to Ocarina of Time's, the fact that it is a coherent continuation and even the physical evidence of the stained glass windows depicting the Sages. The Wind Waker also shot dead the 'Single Link' and 'Single Timeline' Theories, so I don't think Anouma is just making it up as he goes.

Yeah I can agree with you on that part. Until MM and WW, Nintendo really didn't seem to care at all about the Timeline. However, I think the developers were more focused on just connecting WW with OoT while Anouma was more concerned with connecting all the games.

The reason why The Wind Waker's king knows Ganondorf is because he was king when Ganon returned, as detailed in the game's intro. Ganon returned to Hyrule after being defeated by the Hero of Time and started wreaking havoc once more before eventually being sealed again by the flood. Daphnes Nohansen Hyrule was king during that time. That is how he knows Ganon. His mistakes also relate to that period of time, when, instead of taking action to save his kingdom, Daphnes Nohansen Hyrule sat back waiting for a hero to rise up and save his kingdom. This is why he plays a more active role in bringing an end to Ganon during the course of the game.
He also only talks of the Hero of Time by referring to legends and tales passed down over time. He doesn't appear to know the Hero of Time in the same way he knows Ganon.

OK you have me there...but I was sorta under the impression that Ganon escaped within a short period of time. Maybe I should look back at that, but if these people were expecting the hero to returning, I'd think it wouldn't have been generations later or something when the hero would be, clearly, dead.

He doesn't know, that's what the point I was trying to make. Let me clarify.
We know Link went on another adventure (Majora's Mask) after he was returned to his time. Nobody on the Adult Timeline knew that though. There is a legend on the Adult Timeline that simply says the Hero of Time never came back:

Later on, the King of Red Lions says this:

He clearly does not know what happend and has to rely solely upon legends himself. He does not know Link left on an adventure, he was simply told that and had no choice but to accept it as fact. He believes the Hero of Time embarked on another journey, basically.

Well how did ANYONE from the adult timeline figure that out? All Zelda did was send him back in time. There was no motivation for him to leave Hyrule yet.

One of the best things about The Wind Waker in general is that it gives us great insight into how the passage of time can obscure history. It's almost a theme of the game and a big reason why I think Nintendo should explore the history of Hyrule further in future titles. What we know as fact has been twisted into legend for the inhabitants of the Adult Timeline's Hyrule. Most of what these characters say about the actions of the Hero of Time cannot be taken literally since they do not and never have known the facts the way we do. That's why the game continues from Ocarina so explicitly, so that we as an audince can appreciate how history is blurred with the passage of time.
One of the best and most amusing pieces of evidence for this is how the Triforce has come to be known as the Triumph Forks.

I still don't see how (first or third hand source) the King of Red Lions would know he left Hyrule. Who told him that? How on earth did they know?

She doesn't. I never said she did know. What I said was that after she sent the Hero of Time back in time, she may have then told her subjects in the Adult Timeline that the Hero went on an adventure simply to placate them and give them hope that they would be protected in a future crisis. This hope is evidently present in Hyrulian society because it is detailed in the legend at the beginning of The Wind Waker.
I'm not saying she knows what the Hero of Time did in the Child Timeline, I'm saying she may have made up a false story to make her subjects feel more at ease.

...Ehhhh...now you're kinda theorizing and making stuff up. There's just no game evidence to suggest she actually did that.

As I have said, no one on the Adult Timeline did know. They only have legends to work from so they simply believe the Hero of Time left Hyrule on an adventure. When Zelda sent the Hero of Time back in time, the timeline split, so on the Adult Timeline, the Hero of Time was gone completely. It is at this point, knowing the Hero can never return, that it seems likely the Princess invented a false legend that made her people (and subsequent generations) believe the Hero of Time was on an adventure of some kind.
Because we know the Hero of Time did go on an adventure, it is all too easy for us to see this as a reference to Majora's Mask. But when we look at it from the most likely perspective of the people living in the Adult Timeline, it makes sense that it would be nothing more than the legend it is and not a record of hard fact.

This just feels a little hard to swallow. I mean first off, they reference to the fact that he traveled through time on his adventure, so they know he's from the past. Would they really believe he didn't return to the past? And Zelda just happened to tell a completely accurate lie that, when told by the King of Red Lions, kinda resembles the introduction to Majora's Mask?

The issue here is the nature of the King of Red Lions. When he appears as Daphnes Nohansen Hyrule it is easy to see him as a spirit, given how he teleports around, but the King of Red Lions is very real. It may be that the boat was literally just a wooden boat which now houses the spirit of Daphnes Nohansen Hyrule so that he may have a physical presence on The Great Sea. While in Hyrule, his spirit may be able to leave the boat and manifest in his human image. It is interesting to note that when he does this, the actual boat remains totally stationary and lifeless, giving some credence to this notion.
Basically, it seems likely that the king is indeed dead, probably died in the flood, but his spirit has remained and basically haunts a red boat so that the king may help prevent Ganon from achieving his goals in the future, which is exactly what he does.

Alright, not sure how that helps your argument, but my rebuttal has already be discussed on another part of this argument, so I'll still my tongue.

Semantics, but Adult OoT-Link is considered 16. source

Ahh touche.

The king lives that long for the same reason that Ganondorf lives that long. He's under the influence of the flood seal. Remember that he has an escape portal just like Ganondorf's.

I suppose that's possible...it kinda...makes me wonder what's with the general ghost/not-ghost behavior. XD

You didn't mention the Legend of the Fairy, so I will.

There's your direct MM reference.

I assume this has something to do with the Tingle Tuner right? Thanks for that. Never had a bloody GBA. -_-

Actually, when I think of WW messing up the timeline, I think of how it bumped LttP out of its spot as OoT's sequel. It took them ten years to clean up after that little mishap, and they did a rather sloppy job of it.

Oh man, don't even go there. Trying to fit the 2D titles into a plausible timeline is just ridiculous. I like to pretend there's just two alternate universes with two alternate timelines. I know it's not true, but it's the only way I can look at all this stuff without going insane. XD

 

[Cfrock]

This still bring the question of why she would garb him in the green tunic. Whether she's right or wrong, she says they are garbed when they are the same age. So, under adult timeline, why would she garb him when he's so much younger?

Like I said, the legend never makes specific reference to the Hero of Time's age so Link's Grandma is basically just guessing. It's hundreds of yeas after Ocarina of Time, people have forgotten about Hyrule, I'm sure no one remembers a tiny detail that wasn't recorded in the history books.

Actually, this brings another question to light...why on earth is Link depicted as a kid in the ancient stories and as an adult in the statue in Hyrule Castle?

I already gave my answer to this.

OK you have me there...but I was sorta under the impression that Ganon escaped within a short period of time. Maybe I should look back at that, but if these people were expecting the hero to returning, I'd think it wouldn't have been generations later or something when the hero would be, clearly, dead.

The boy's tale was passed down through
generations until it became legend...

But then...a day came when a fell wind
began to blow across the kingdom.

The intro tells us that Ganon returned long after Ocarina of Time, long enough for those events to become legend themselves.
Also, when you play through the game a second time and the Ancient Hylian is translated, Valoo, The Great Deku Tree and Jabun all still believe the Hero of Time will be found. They ask if Link is the Hero of Time only to be told that he isn't but he still might be able to save them anyway. I can't explain why but clearly people did honestly believe the Hero of Time would return, despite how much time had passed since he went away.

Well how did ANYONE from the adult timeline figure that out? All Zelda did was send him back in time. There was no motivation for him to leave Hyrule yet...

I still don't see how (first or third hand source) the King of Red Lions would know he left Hyrule. Who told him that? How on earth did they know?

That's what I'm saying, they didn't know. I'm saying the people on the Adult Timeline are all working off a legend that was left incredibly vague that we as an audience apply meaning to because we've played Majora's Mask. Nobody knows what the Hero of Time did, they all just believe a story that they were told.

...Ehhhh...now you're kinda theorizing and making stuff up. There's just no game evidence to suggest she actually did that.

I am, like I said, when dealing with the gaps between games some degree of speculation is needed. But this isn't totally baseless speculation.
The Wind Waker's intro, as well as the conversation between The King of Red Lions and Jabun and what the Great Deku Tree says when he first sees Link all show very clearly that the people of Hyrule at the time of Ganon's return firmly believed that the Hero of Time would return to save them. Even though it was hundreds of years after Ocarina of Time, they all still believed he would come back. They still believe he will come back during the actual game.
This is important because we as an audience know that the Hero of Time is gone completely from the Adult Timeline. We know he can never go back there. So the only way the people could genuinely believe he would return, like they do, is if they do not know what really happened to him after Ganon was sealed away. If they knew the Hero of Time had gone, then they would not await his return.
This means that the exact details of what happened after Ganon was sealed were not reported to the people accurately. Remember, only Princess Zelda and the other Sages will know what happened when Ganon was sealed (they give an incredibly accurate record of it in the Master Sword's Chamber in those windows, even showing exactly what Ganon looked like, complete with both swords) but we have evidence which suggests that they did not tell the people of Hyrule what really happened to the Hero of Time.
While I admit, this may not be the strongest evidence, it does help support the idea that after Zelda sent Link back in time following Ocarina of Time the people were given a false account of events which said Link went on an adventure. The motivation for this is clear in the way it gave the people hope. Believe it or don't believe it, my point here is that this notion is not totally without some kind of merit.

This just feels a little hard to swallow. I mean first off, they reference to the fact that he traveled through time on his adventure, so they know he's from the past. Would they really believe he didn't return to the past? And Zelda just happened to tell a completely accurate lie that, when told by the King of Red Lions, kinda resembles the introduction to Majora's Mask?

Well then let's forget the possibility that Zelda lied for a second and let's follow a different thought. Maybe there's a more likely explanation.

Zelda knew she was sending Link back to his childhood at the end of Ocarina of Time. It is possible she believed that since he had been on such an adventure already, that when he returned to childhood he would seek a new adventure. This would fit with his character and what she knew of him. It is possible, therefore, that when Zelda told her people about the Hero of Time going on an adventure, she wasn't lying to make them feel better but genuinely believed Link to be on an adventure, even if she did not know what that adventure would entail exactly. This would also explain why the details of this adventure are left incredibly vague in The Wind Waker's backstory.
The fact that people knew he could time travel would explain why they still believed he could return to save them even after hundreds of years. After all, he could just travel a few hundred years into the future in an instant with time travel. Also, the legend begins only with Ganon getting the Triforce. This means that the legend only records Link's actions from when he was an adult. The only way the people could know he time travelled is if they were told by the only people who knew the truth: Zelda and the Sages. If they were willing to give that level of detail about the Hero of Time, maybe it is more likely that they told the truth about sending him back to his childhood and it's not a stretch of the imagination to believe they would have referred to that as his new adventure.

Does that explanation fit better? Would you say it sounds more accurate?

Alright, not sure how that helps your argument, but my rebuttal has already be discussed on another part of this argument, so I'll still my tongue.

That was just answering the direct question of is the King of Red Lions a ghost. It wasn't really a part of my overall point.