Breath of the Wild Will it really be worth the wait? Worries for the new game

[the8thark]

ah @the8thark thanks for clarifying

when nintendo said "2%" how reliable is that comment? do you think nintendo is misleading? what are your thoughts mate?

I don't think it's misleading. I also don't think it's totally scientifically accurate. Nintendo just used that as a rough approximate figure in my opinion. I feel the whole idea of the 2% was not the 2% ifself but the idea that even though the demo feels massive, in reality it's just one large part of a many times exponentially larger full game. Nintendo needed to get accross that this game is massive. The 2% was a great way to do it cause few would believe that the demo is really that small part of the game only without Nintendo clarifying it.

 

[marley_link]

pz to cartridges

 

[DJ Twitch]

Hours of gameplay in a very limited section of the game, with a lot of assets removed from the game so that they wouldn't spoil plot. They literally took things (settlements, for example) out of the demo so that they could show hours of gameplay without spoiling plot or more gameplay than they were ready/willing to show.

We saw hours of nothing.

Not really. While a lot of it wasn't particularly exciting, we got to see; The controls, the combat, the shrines, a look into the many things you can do in the overworld, the basic functions of the game, and other important things.

I mean, you can see someone cooking on TV and they're using what looks like really spicy ingredients, and you can say "I wouldn't enjoy that; it's too spicy," but you don't know if it's too spicy if you don't eat it. You can't possibly

Actually, yes one could say that. Some people just know what they like and what they don't. For example, if I see the guy using garlic (which I can't stand) I'll know the garlic will likely ruin the dish for me.

So when I see a Zelda game doing these things that I hate from other games, that's a HUGE red flag.

Similarly, you can't know if the gameplay is easy, if you don't like the weapon system, or if you're going to have to wander around the overworld looking for stuff to do until you get your hands on the game and actually do it. It's one thing to watch a severely limited gameplay demo, and it's another to play the game yourself.

I could caution, however, that you're treading on dangerous waters: you're setting yourself up for confirmation bias.

Sometimes it only takes a clear and unbiased look on things. Why am I betting on the weapons and overworld? Because I've seen them, and I've dealt with them in other games too. And the difficulty? I'm looking at the same enemy stupidity and dungeon easiness that I've seen in WW, TP, and other later games. If it walks like like a duck and quacks like a duck...

 

[the8thark]

pz to cartridges

This is rumoured to be trye for the NX. But think 3DS like and not N64/SNES/NES like.

And the difficulty? I'm looking at the same enemy stupidity and dungeon easiness that I've seen in WW, TP, and other later games. If it walks like like a duck and quacks like a duck...

The only Zelda game I've ever thought was off in the difficulty was ALTTP. That actually felt too easy, so much so that it ruined a little of the fun. But only slightly. All of the rest of the Zelda games are just fine. The are not meant to be the next Dark Souls. They are meant to be easier, very fun games that anyone can get into. Zeldas are console sellers for Nintendo. Nintendo want everyone to buy their consoles, regardless of their level of gaming skill. To that end, a stupidly hard Zelda game hurts Nintendo more than it helps it. A lot more. But having a hero mode accessible right off the bat, that works very well. So the people will less gaming skill can enjoy the Zelda games as much as the people with more gaming skill.

A Zelda themed Dark Souls game will not sell Nintendo hardware. But what I mentinoed above here will, and has done so in the past.

 

[Salem]

2% of 1 is almost nothing.
2% of 100 billion is still a very large number.

I thnk you get my point. 2% of what. This what is the important factor here.

Relatively, I guess.

 

[Aku]

This is rumoured to be trye for the NX. But think 3DS like and not N64/SNES/NES like.


The only Zelda game I've ever thought was off in the difficulty was ALTTP. That actually felt too easy, so much so that it ruined a little of the fun. But only slightly. All of the rest of the Zelda games are just fine. The are not meant to be the next Dark Souls. They are meant to be easier, very fun games that anyone can get into. Zeldas are console sellers for Nintendo. Nintendo want everyone to buy their consoles, regardless of their level of gaming skill. To that end, a stupidly hard Zelda game hurts Nintendo more than it helps it. A lot more. But having a hero mode accessible right off the bat, that works very well. So the people will less gaming skill can enjoy the Zelda games as much as the people with more gaming skill.

A Zelda themed Dark Souls game will not sell Nintendo hardware. But what I mentinoed above here will, and has done so in the past.

From what I've seen of the footage, it actually could be that they are trying to up the difficulty more. From the comments of one player, he tried using the Traveler's Claymore on a Guardian and it barely made a dent, plus Aonuma said that someone attempting to get to C. Ganon straight away is either gonna be really good or crazy. I'm thinking that C. Ganon himself might be about Ninja Gaiden boss-level difficulty (maybe even one of the upper level bosses!) without all of the powerups you gather, otherwise Aonuma risks making an ass out of himself of he says that it's gonna be hard and turns it out it's really not.

Plus the little monsters (excluding the Guardians and possibly the Talus creature) might be just the appetizers. Nintendo always gives the easy guys first (and this was only 2% of the content of the whole game) so there could likely be much harder stuff out there.

To be fair, 'stupidly hard Zelda game' is what the first and second Zelda games were. It didn't hurt them a lick, or we would be discussing Zelda as a past series. Instead, what Zelda games are becoming is stupidly easy with people barely dying on a playthrough and some doing '3 heart runs' just to artificially beef the difficulty and add some more re-playability. What will hurt Zelda is not an increase in difficulty, but a continuing reputation as a game for little kids. For 'grown up' Zelda, I'm not talking flying guts or sex scenes, but stuff that shows characters acting seriously, truly frightening and difficult monsters, or the utter death and destruction that an unleashed Full-TriForce Ganon could bring about. Stuff that Link would realistically come across in trying to stop the Ganon Apocalypse, but oft gets heavily 'sanitized' so it doesn't frighten little children. Children want a fun colorful romp. Adults (likely) want to feel like they just stopped Hell on Earth.

So far we've been getting mainly the fun and colorful romps. We've yet to get the Big Guns Zelda for grownups, something that could ultimately add longevity because it allows more creative ideas to be utilized, and giving something for those little kids (and grownups) to look forward to after they've 'grown out of' the child-orientated games.

 

[the8thark]

From what I've seen of the footage, it actually could be that they are trying to up the difficulty more. From the comments of one player, he tried using the Traveler's Claymore on a Guardian and it barely made a dent, plus Aonuma said that someone attempting to get to C. Ganon straight away is either gonna be really good or crazy. I'm thinking that C. Ganon himself might be about Ninja Gaiden boss-level difficulty (maybe even one of the upper level bosses!) without all of the powerups you gather, otherwise Aonuma risks making an ass out of himself of he says that it's gonna be hard and turns it out it's really not.

Plus the little monsters (excluding the Guardians and possibly the Talus creature) might be just the appetizers. Nintendo always gives the easy guys first (and this was only 2% of the content of the whole game) so there could likely be much harder stuff out there.

To be fair, 'stupidly hard Zelda game' is what the first and second Zelda games were. It didn't hurt them a lick, or we would be discussing Zelda as a past series. Instead, what Zelda games are becoming is stupidly easy with people barely dying on a playthrough and some doing '3 heart runs' just to artificially beef the difficulty and add some more re-playability. What will hurt Zelda is not an increase in difficulty, but a continuing reputation as a game for little kids. For 'grown up' Zelda, I'm not talking flying guts or sex scenes, but stuff that shows characters acting seriously, truly frightening and difficult monsters, or the utter death and destruction that an unleashed Full-TriForce Ganon could bring about. Stuff that Link would realistically come across in trying to stop the Ganon Apocalypse, but oft gets heavily 'sanitized' so it doesn't frighten little children. Children want a fun colorful romp. Adults (likely) want to feel like they just stopped Hell on Earth.

So far we've been getting mainly the fun and colorful romps. We've yet to get the Big Guns Zelda for grownups, something that could ultimately add longevity because it allows more creative ideas to be utilized, and giving something for those little kids (and grownups) to look forward to after they've 'grown out of' the child-orientated games.

Overall very well said.

I will mention LoZ and Zelda 2:AoL though. They were not stupidly hard compared to other games in their era. I know as Zelda 2 was the first NES game I played back in the day. Both games just took some practice to get good at. Both games were not even close to the toughest thing on the NES. Ghosts and Goblins? Battletoads? Super Mario Lost Levels? (just 3 examples of many) Yeah much harder. Not for good reasons too, too much trial and error there so you know exactly what to do in these three games. LoZ 1&2 on thge other hand, yeah not so hard with a little practice.

If you think Zelda 1 and Zelda 2 are very hard then you'll honestly struggle on many of the other NES games out there as they are much harder.

I honestly think there has not been a truly hard main series Zelda game. Sure we had TFH which can be tough playing solo and HW, where some of the adventure mode squares are juast unfair, but for main Zelda games, none of them are super hard. 100%ing Majoras Mask is hard due to some of the masks and heartpieces being hard to get, but that's it really. Zelda games get hard sure, but Dark Souls hard? Nah, none of them do.
1/1/8, 8/1/1, 1/8/1 runs of Zelda 2 do exist. Some people are crazy enough to attempt them. I am not. But I did do a dark deathmountain run. As in getting the candle before the hammer in Zelda 2. I often do that cause I like doing it. I even took a vodei of me doing it once a couple of years ago. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPDkeZ4MDBY That's it.

BotW looks like it could be a very hard game though. Not because it's solely being different to all LoZ games before it. I believe this is the kind of game that appeaks to the younger gamers (ie most of the development team that worked on it.) This is a great thing. A fresh perspecive on the series, not jsut the game old heads basing every Zelda game on Nostalgia.

You say "Adults (likely) want to feel like they just stopped Hell on Earth.". Some do like this in their games. Some don't. We're all adults though. Some just like good Zelda fun without being insanely challenged on every step of the way. This is why I like hero mode. So everyone is happy. You can choose to play it or not. I personally perfer not playing hero mode in Zelda game, but I know others who only play Hero mode on those Zelda games. Something for everyone. I do think the difficulty in BotW will not be hero mode, but in what order you do things. There will be a harder way and an easier way. The player will work out pretty quickly if a way is too hard and look for another easier way.

We needm to remember this is Nintendo. Many Nintendo and Zelda games do not like suepr difficult games. They just want fun. Aonuma and co needs to cater to them as well as the harder game fans as well. If BotW is Dark Souls in Hyrule, then I'll probably put it down as it's not what I look for in a Zelda game. But if on the other hand the game's difficulty is well balanced then I'll give it more of a shot.

 

[Aku]

Overall very well said.

I will mention LoZ and Zelda 2:AoL though. They were not stupidly hard compared to other games in their era. I know as Zelda 2 was the first NES game I played back in the day. Both games just took some practice to get good at. Both games were not even close to the toughest thing on the NES. Ghosts and Goblins? Battletoads? Super Mario Lost Levels? (just 3 examples of many) Yeah much harder. Not for good reasons too, too much trial and error there so you know exactly what to do in these three games. LoZ 1&2 on thge other hand, yeah not so hard with a little practice.

If you think Zelda 1 and Zelda 2 are very hard then you'll honestly struggle on many of the other NES games out there as they are much harder.

I honestly think there has not been a truly hard main series Zelda game. Sure we had TFH which can be tough playing solo and HW, where some of the adventure mode squares are juast unfair, but for main Zelda games, none of them are super hard. 100%ing Majoras Mask is hard due to some of the masks and heartpieces being hard to get, but that's it really. Zelda games get hard sure, but Dark Souls hard? Nah, none of them do.
1/1/8, 8/1/1, 1/8/1 runs of Zelda 2 do exist. Some people are crazy enough to attempt them. I am not. But I did do a dark deathmountain run. As in getting the candle before the hammer in Zelda 2. I often do that cause I like doing it. I even took a vodei of me doing it once a couple of years ago. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPDkeZ4MDBY That's it.

BotW looks like it could be a very hard game though. Not because it's solely being different to all LoZ games before it. I believe this is the kind of game that appeaks to the younger gamers (ie most of the development team that worked on it.) This is a great thing. A fresh perspecive on the series, not jsut the game old heads basing every Zelda game on Nostalgia.

You say "Adults (likely) want to feel like they just stopped Hell on Earth.". Some do like this in their games. Some don't. We're all adults though. Some just like good Zelda fun without being insanely challenged on every step of the way. This is why I like hero mode. So everyone is happy. You can choose to play it or not. I personally perfer not playing hero mode in Zelda game, but I know others who only play Hero mode on those Zelda games. Something for everyone. I do think the difficulty in BotW will not be hero mode, but in what order you do things. There will be a harder way and an easier way. The player will work out pretty quickly if a way is too hard and look for another easier way.

We needm to remember this is Nintendo. Many Nintendo and Zelda games do not like suepr difficult games. They just want fun. Aonuma and co needs to cater to them as well as the harder game fans as well. If BotW is Dark Souls in Hyrule, then I'll probably put it down as it's not what I look for in a Zelda game. But if on the other hand the game's difficulty is well balanced then I'll give it more of a shot.

Actually, I haven't found Zelda 1 hard (I haven't played AoL yet) but I was just going by what others think about those two games. As such, I was assuming (perhaps a bit wrongly) that you might have been one of the folks that thought the first two games were hard. LoZ is pretty much light medium difficulty for me. I think the hardest game I've ever played was one of the Ninja Gaidens, and I kept dying at the second boss on Normal difficulty.

I think what I mean by 'hard' is a realistic expectation that one could die a couple of times on normal difficulty, and that the enemies don't pause and wait for you to strike them. I wouldn't want them to be nigh impossible or super duper hard, but guys that know how to sword fight and where you have to know how (or learn how) to counter that without resorting to mindless button mashing. Meaning you have to be quick on your toes or (at least wits.)

Oh, what I mean by 'Just stopped Hell on Earth' is not primarily difficulty, but the way the main baddie and his cronies are ultimately delivered, not just in atmosphere but in execution. Ever get a boss that was built up to be The Worst Thing to Ever Trod the Earth, and then find he's a pushover? That's what I mean. Too many of the games nowadays have Ganondorf (and especially Ganon) be a cakewalk, which is a shame because when he drops all pretenses and becomes his demonic form (Ganon) it should not be as easy as his human form. Like I mentioned before, he should not be impossible, but he should not be so easy it kills the previous hours of buildup. He should not be a nice boss, letting you hit his little marshmallow toes.

 

[Spirit]

I'm still on the fence.

I'll buy the game on wiiU, play it, probably enjoy it. But while playing I'll always be rather irritated that it'll be better on the NX, a console I wont be purchasing until the end of its life cycle.

I bought the WiiU because of WWhd and nothing else. Had WWhd not been made i wouldn't own a WiiU. BotW is another reason to skip the U entirely if you don't have one, because if you do you'll be playing the inferior version of BotW.

Still, when I finally get an NX (if I like BotW and Zelda NX is decent) I guess it'll be nice to play a pretty and more functional version of BotW.

Now, as for the game itself, regardless of console, I'm on the fence about that too.

It's odd because I knew I didnt like SS when it was revealed, I didnt like the look of it, the trailer didnt thrill me and despite all of the footage I saw up until its release it failed to thrill me even once. Playing it was the final straw, as it ended up being worse than I thought it would be while actually experiencing it for myself.

BotW is similar in that regard for me. I loved the reveal, but nothing I've seen since has actually elevated my hype level and that worries me.

Despite hours of footage and new information, BotW isn't making me want to play it, and if I'm honest the 2014 reveal is the best thing I've seen of the game so far, everything else has actually had a lesser impact on me.

The e3 gameplay footage also doesn't look as amazing (in terms of graphics) as the 2014 reveal. I've also read hands on reviews of the demo, many of which mention functionality trouble with frame rate dips and slow down and hope that such things wont be a problem on NX...

Aside from those, the game also looks a bit too generic to me. Maybe its all of the western RPG content like constantly changing clothes, cooking etc, it just feels like more catching up on Nintendo's part. I've seen and experienced many of BotW's features in other games already and I'm not sure if they'll be any better in BotW.

I guess I don't want to feel like I'm playing a laggy cel-shaded version of Witcher 3...

Time will tell, but my hype level hasn't risen for a long time. It'll be a good experience (on NX...) but I don't know if it'll be a new experience or even a Zelda experience...

 

[the8thark]

Actually, I haven't found Zelda 1 hard (I haven't played AoL yet) but I was just going by what others think about those two games. As such, I was assuming (perhaps a bit wrongly) that you might have been one of the folks that thought the first two games were hard. LoZ is pretty much light medium difficulty for me. I think the hardest game I've ever played was one of the Ninja Gaidens, and I kept dying at the second boss on Normal difficulty.

I think what I mean by 'hard' is a realistic expectation that one could die a couple of times on normal difficulty, and that the enemies don't pause and wait for you to strike them. I wouldn't want them to be nigh impossible or super duper hard, but guys that know how to sword fight and where you have to know how (or learn how) to counter that without resorting to mindless button mashing. Meaning you have to be quick on your toes or (at least wits.)

Oh, what I mean by 'Just stopped Hell on Earth' is not primarily difficulty, but the way the main baddie and his cronies are ultimately delivered, not just in atmosphere but in execution. Ever get a boss that was built up to be The Worst Thing to Ever Trod the Earth, and then find he's a pushover? That's what I mean. Too many of the games nowadays have Ganondorf (and especially Ganon) be a cakewalk, which is a shame because when he drops all pretenses and becomes his demonic form (Ganon) it should not be as easy as his human form. Like I mentioned before, he should not be impossible, but he should not be so easy it kills the previous hours of buildup. He should not be a nice boss, letting you hit his little marshmallow toes.

I have not played much of the new Ninja Gaiden games, but I have a lot of the old NES trilogy. Of those 3 games, 1 is relatively hard, two is tough but managable (and by far the best of the 3 games), and the 3rd is not that good and silly hard at points, with the stupid scrolling sections. But with practice all 3 games can be beaten. Not the hardest things ever but scertainly a challenge at least initially.

Oh totally I get what you mean by hell on earth. Over hyping a boss of eapect of a game, only have it be a let down, that's so annoying. I agree wuth you 100% that I hope this never happens in BotW. Since this is not broken motion controls (Skyward Sword) then a little skill in combat should be needed. I agree the mindless button mashing should not work. Still I do like the sneaking aspect and the wqhile idea of BotW where you can see something up ahead and can stop and think how to beat it. That's the puzzle, how to beat this thing ahead. Being forced to kill things with zero preparation probably should exist in BOtW as well for a little change of pace, but only in a very small number of sections. If BotW is as hard as everyone's claiming it is then the game needs us to prepare for every enemy and every dungeon. So the player chooses the pace fo the game. Ie, rushing all enemies or taking it show and thinking out how is the best way to beat each one when you see them.

If BotW is more about this kind of thinking then I'll sertainly like BotW a lot. A long as you're not put back too far away after dying

 

[Aku]

I have not played much of the new Ninja Gaiden games, but I have a lot of the old NES trilogy. Of those 3 games, 1 is relatively hard, two is tough but managable (and by far the best of the 3 games), and the 3rd is not that good and silly hard at points, with the stupid scrolling sections. But with practice all 3 games can be beaten. Not the hardest things ever but scertainly a challenge at least initially.

Oh totally I get what you mean by hell on earth. Over hyping a boss of eapect of a game, only have it be a let down, that's so annoying. I agree wuth you 100% that I hope this never happens in BotW. Since this is not broken motion controls (Skyward Sword) then a little skill in combat should be needed. I agree the mindless button mashing should not work. Still I do like the sneaking aspect and the wqhile idea of BotW where you can see something up ahead and can stop and think how to beat it. That's the puzzle, how to beat this thing ahead. Being forced to kill things with zero preparation probably should exist in BOtW as well for a little change of pace, but only in a very small number of sections. If BotW is as hard as everyone's claiming it is then the game needs us to prepare for every enemy and every dungeon. So the player chooses the pace fo the game. Ie, rushing all enemies or taking it show and thinking out how is the best way to beat each one when you see them.

If BotW is more about this kind of thinking then I'll sertainly like BotW a lot. A long as you're not put back too far away after dying

The Gaiden I played was one of the newer ones, it was on the old X-Box. That game was pretty hard, it was about some people having these latent genes that made them prone to turning into demonic Fiends (I think that's what they were called) and I kept dying at the second boss, the Fiend who you see striding across a bridge on his big demonic horse. I could defeat all or most of his cronies, but heaven help me I could only get half way through his health bar before he inevitably killed me, because I almost never had enough health. The game probably wouldn't have been as hard however if it allowed you to save beyond the few far placed save-points, because a big part that made it frustrating was whenever I died (and I can forgive brutal difficulty) is that you started waaaaay back here at this save-point, and you had to do a bunch of this other stuff all over again.

With 'intimidating' LoZ boss fights at least, I think one that was done really good was Wind Waker's Ganondorf. I might not like Wind Waker largely as a whole, but this Ganondorf makes me like fighting him. He is not a nice guy. He is not shy about being rough or punching you with his fists, or brutally back-handing Tetra to stop her from firing arrows into him. And before, when King Daphne took away his one chance to have Hyrule again (just after you heard why he did all of that stuff for so many years) he doesn't get goofy. He starts laughing like a mad man before going full friggen' Terminator. (Seriously, just go first person and watch him walk towards you. It's cold, calm and methodical, even his face has lost almost any expression. What's left is just him staring at you with a singular, lethal intent. Even his fight style becomes simple, brutal, and efficient, devoid of anything fancy now but only those moves that make sure he gets just that much closer to killing you. I couldn't help but find that chilling, because it clearly shows what mentality is in the man.) I hope BoTW does this too, because it makes Ganon(dorf) practically badass. If they do this, and he makes you work for the victory, oh damn. I get chills just thinking about it. THAT will be a boss fight lets you know you just kicked evil's ass.

(The antithesis to this coolness is SS's Imprisoned and Demise. I haven't played SS, but from what I know, the Imprisoned reminds me of a large pine-cone crossed with an avocado and given marshmallow toes. The only thing going for Imprisoned is that he vaguely makes me think of the Crites from Critters with his appearance and teeth, which is way better then Demise's lolzy impression of what you might see on the album cover of a crappy 80's death metal band. Imprisoned could in theory be scary if they redesigned him a bit (since he did have some good buildup) but Demise is too irretrievably cornball. And I'm saying this honestly, even as I absolutely hate SS.)



The sneaking part is what I like too, it's what I find enjoyable in many games that allow you to use it. Plus it allows you to really look at the environment, because you have to figure it into the fight or whatever it is that you plan to do. It's what I hope to be doing a lot in this game, because I like taking my time.

As for your last point, that I quite agree too. Since Nintendo is letting the player do more this time around, having more safe points should not be out of the question. Especially in this kind of game, where it could be that the player has to gain experience (or whatever it is) and losing that or starting waaay back would be a momentum killer.

 

[the8thark]

The Gaiden I played was one of the newer ones, it was on the old X-Box. That game was pretty hard, it was about some people having these latent genes that made them prone to turning into demonic Fiends (I think that's what they were called) and I kept dying at the second boss, the Fiend who you see striding across a bridge on his big demonic horse. I could defeat all or most of his cronies, but heaven help me I could only get half way through his health bar before he inevitably killed me, because I almost never had enough health. The game probably wouldn't have been as hard however if it allowed you to save beyond the few far placed save-points, because a big part that made it frustrating was whenever I died (and I can forgive brutal difficulty) is that you started waaaaay back here at this save-point, and you had to do a bunch of this other stuff all over again.

I've not played the newer Ninja Gaiden games so I would not know but I totally believe you when you say this.

With 'intimidating' LoZ boss fights at least, I think one that was done really good was Wind Waker's Ganondorf. I might not like Wind Waker largely as a whole, but this Ganondorf makes me like fighting him. He is not a nice guy. He is not shy about being rough or punching you with his fists, or brutally back-handing Tetra to stop her from firing arrows into him. And before, when King Daphne took away his one chance to have Hyrule again (just after you heard why he did all of that stuff for so many years) he doesn't get goofy. He starts laughing like a mad man before going full friggen' Terminator. (Seriously, just go first person and watch him walk towards you. It's cold, calm and methodical, even his face has lost almost any expression. What's left is just him staring at you with a singular, lethal intent. Even his fight style becomes simple, brutal, and efficient, devoid of anything fancy now but only those moves that make sure he gets just that much closer to killing you. I couldn't help but find that chilling, because it clearly shows what mentality is in the man.) I hope BoTW does this too, because it makes Ganon(dorf) practically badass. If they do this, and he makes you work for the victory, oh damn. I get chills just thinking about it. THAT will be a boss fight lets you know you just kicked evil's ass.

Work for the win, I totally agree with. Not get the win based on crappy RNG - ie the Demise battle in SS or Ganon in LOZ1 NES.
The final Ganondorf fight in WW was one of the better parts of the game I will agree.
Also the final fight with Shadow Link in Zelda 2 AoL is a great fight too. The atmosphere is really good, the whole colour change of everything just for that one fight. It's just very well done. A touch hard but past that it's a good boss battle.

(The antithesis to this coolness is SS's Imprisoned and Demise. I haven't played SS, but from what I know, the Imprisoned reminds me of a large pine-cone crossed with an avocado and given marshmallow toes. The only thing going for Imprisoned is that he vaguely makes me think of the Crites from Critters with his appearance and teeth, which is way better then Demise's lolzy impression of what you might see on the album cover of a crappy 80's death metal band. Imprisoned could in theory be scary if they redesigned him a bit (since he did have some good buildup) but Demise is too irretrievably cornball. And I'm saying this honestly, even as I absolutely hate SS.)

It seems you hate SS as much as I hate WW. I think the only think that makes the later Imprisoned battles good is Groose. The imprisoned in SS and HW is both totally annoying, not well designed and an annoying boss to fight.

The sneaking part is what I like too, it's what I find enjoyable in many games that allow you to use it. Plus it allows you to really look at the environment, because you have to figure it into the fight or whatever it is that you plan to do. It's what I hope to be doing a lot in this game, because I like taking my time.

Agreed, sneaking and jumping are two great parts of BotW. I beleive not there just to be different, but because that's what they wantes BotW to be. I believe I'll be stocking up in the silently sneak potions.

As for your last point, that I quite agree too. Since Nintendo is letting the player do more this time around, having more safe points should not be out of the question. Especially in this kind of game, where it could be that the player has to gain experience (or whatever it is) and losing that or starting waaay back would be a momentum killer.

Most Zelda games don't have an experience as such to gain but I think if you did deaths Xenoblade Chronicles X style in the overworld that's work. Shrines are simple, if you die, you have to restart the whole shrine. That'd add to their challenge but incrementally because some of them are single room and some are multiroom.
Set dungeons though? Probably get booted back to the start of the dungeon and you have to travel back to where you were at. You don't have to re-do most of it but this repeat trackinmg each death will be enough of a deterrant to prevent people zerging the dungeons.

 

[CrimsonCavalier]

I think part of what adds difficulty or challenge to any game is the ability to decide how to tackle an enemy.

Think of these examples:

Fallout 3: Deathclaws - Some of the deadliest and scariest creatures in the Capital Wasteland. However, with the dart gun, they're simple, and not scary at all. But you don't have to get the dart gun. In fact, you can play the game entirely and never even hear mention of the dart gun. You can take them on from a distance, you can take them on with flamer, or if you're feeling saucy, you can try to take them on with melee. The approach makes the game easy or hard.

Super Metroid: Draygon - You can kill it the traditional way: missiles, charge beam, etc.. Or you can use the environment and kill it the easy way. Again, one method is tried and true: you've been doing it the whole game. The other method might be found by accident, but you could play the game 5 times and not realize you can electrocute it. And even knowing that, you can choose to not do it that way, and instead shoot it with missiles.

What I want to see is the developers give us a variety of different ways to take on enemies. Not just depending on our play styles. In other words, I don't want to be able to sneak up on every enemy and do critical damage, like you can in Elder Scrolls games, for example. I want enemies that you can't sneak up on, so you have to think of something different. I want enemies that you have to sneak up on. I want enemies that have a lot of armor that you can't just go in swinging. I want enemies that I have to use the environment to beat, maybe by drowning them, or knocking them off a cliff, or things like that.

If we're to have a dynamic game, don't just let the game be beatable with different styles all the way through. That can be fun (for example, doing a fighter in Oblivion, and then doing an assassin, and then trying a mage), but what would make a game feel more alive and make it more of a challenge naturally is to have the player have to make decisions.

Sure, a fighter character in Oblivion is easier than a mage or an assassin. If you want a challenge, do a no-weapon, magic only character in Oblivion. It's a lot tougher. And maybe that sort of style fits a game like The Elder Scrolls. But Link has always been a mixture of magic, intelligence, and combat skill, so make it so that we are challenged as players (and therefore, Link) to think outside the box on how to defeat enemies. That way, you can make a game more challenging without resorting to cheap tactics (like in old NES games) or boring leveled enemies (that get stronger as you do).

 

[Aku]

I've not played the newer Ninja Gaiden games so I would not know but I totally believe you when you say this.

And the bosses get harder after that too. 'Normal Mode' is what most anyone else would consider 'Really Hard' and 'Nightmare Mode' is almost impossible. The tiniest mistakes on Nightmare are practically insta-death.

Work for the win, I totally agree with. Not get the win based on crappy RNG - ie the Demise battle in SS or Ganon in LOZ1 NES.
The final Ganondorf fight in WW was one of the better parts of the game I will agree.
Also the final fight with Shadow Link in Zelda 2 AoL is a great fight too. The atmosphere is really good, the whole colour change of everything just for that one fight. It's just very well done. A touch hard but past that it's a good boss battle.

Indeed. I think if they took out the majority of that game and made it primarily about you running from Insane Terminator Ganondorf (with finding sunken Hyrule being only the beginning, and him being mega-pissed at you for crapping all over his chance to raise Hyrule) ditching the cutesy nautical stuff, and you being an adult (not a little kid) I could really enjoy this game. Especially if it ended up with him getting Wisdom and Courage, turning into Full TriForce Ganon, because Full-TriForce Ganon is epic.

It seems you hate SS as much as I hate WW. I think the only think that makes the later Imprisoned battles good is Groose. The imprisoned in SS and HW is both totally annoying, not well designed and an annoying boss to fight.

Yeah, SS feels too much like it wanted to set in stone everything that was 'boring' in Zelda. Making Ganondorf and co. the 'product' of some ancient demon dude's revenge fantasy (instead of evil being his/their own choice), making the Zelda in it an incarnated goddess (boring and often standard fare in other fantasy genres) and so on. Plus it contridicts the ealier Zelda lore on the Hyrulians' origins, making them the set in stone and default 'definately created by gods' people instead of the more interesting 'possibly created by gods, but is likely made by an advanced race' that you normal don't see done in fantasy. As for Grooose, Groose could have (in a better game) been a dude that travels with you and helps you out, starting out as an obnoxious ass and reluctant companion to being a hero in his own way. Instead he's stuck in SS, wasting him (in my opinion.)

Agreed, sneaking and jumping are two great parts of BotW. I beleive not there just to be different, but because that's what they wantes BotW to be. I believe I'll be stocking up in the silently sneak potions.

Same here. Sneaking up is going to be fun in this game