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Why Did the Zora Tribe Adapt into the Rito Tribe?

Locke

Hegemon
Site Staff
Joined
Nov 24, 2009
Location
Redmond, Washington
Those treasure hunter guys say that there are no fish in the sea. If that's true, that might be your reason. The biggest reason the Zora would have to keep swimming the sea is to fish. And now all there were in the oceans were monsters. No fish. If fishing was no longer possible, they might not go into the water as much. And eventually became the Rito.
I'll call your Lemme ask you something real quick: who wanders around on a fishless sea? and They are vast seas... None can swim across them... They yield no fish to catch... and raise several quotes that suggest there are fish in the sea.

[Outset Island] is the most delightful of fishing villages, innocent and rich with nature's bounty...
I can only assume that "nature's bounty" here refers to fish.
[Orca] soon returned to Outset and became a fisherman.
Why become a fisherman if there are no fish?
And you will NEVER guess what happened! This fishy-looking thing popped up on the surface, but it was no ordinary fish! It had this weird, human-looking smile on its face, and it just gobbled up the bait!
"...it was no ordinary fish!" implies that there are ordinary fish. Also the fishmen are frequently referred to as fish.
You'd better remember this! Even if you see a shadow underwater that you THINK looks like a fish, whatever you do, don't throw bait out for it, OK? Because if you do, one of the dreaded fish-men might appear and pull you underwater with him!
Again, there are other fish besides the fishmen. "might appear"
Seahat [...] These tremendous flying fish can be found only on the Great Sea.
Monsters are fish too!

I dismiss Ganondorf's quote as a metaphor (he's talking about a dream), though I can't explain why the treasure hunters think there aren't any fish. In the face of all this evidence, I think they're wrong.
 
Joined
Feb 23, 2011
Keep in mind that what I am about to say may be a shot in the dark...

Okay, so I was thinking... What if the real reason behind the Zora's disappearance had something to do with graphical difficulty? (if there is a better term for this, please fill me in.) What I mean by this is, what if the graphical direction of the game somehow hindered all the properties of aquatic exporation - swimming, encountering Zora, etc.?

I was lead to this hypothetical question by the fact that swimming underwater is prohibited throughout the entirety of the game. Link even lacks the basic ability to dive in a similar manner to his predecessors. Cue the argument that "Hyrule lies in the depths of the ocean, and no one can know of its existence!" Hmm... Does it really?

Is Hyrule really just sitting there in plain sight, or is it lying far beneath the sea in depths comparable to the Marianas Trench? Is there a barrier that prohibits entry by some magical means? (What is even more peculiar is the fact that Link literally had to teleport there in a column of light.) All of these questions bring to mind the fact that none of the citizens appear to mention ever having swum in the sea. I mean, come on, given the amount of fishermen, sailors, and pirates that Link meets throughout the game, you'd think that someone fell overboard at least once, caught sight of the ancient kingdom, and lived to tell about it, right? Well... Sure, Nintendo might have wanted to avoid giving hints to the existence of Hyrule for the sake of the plot, but come on... a little hint couldn't have hurt, right..? oh well... /plot hole ;j

So anyway... I still hold firmly to the notion that the Zora became the Rito due to divine intervention (to keep Hyrule a secret) and evolution. However, I am convinced that this is but only the [copped out, plot hole facilitating] in-game reason. The real-world reason might have something to do with Nintendo's inability to incorporate swimming mechanics and such into the game due to graphical constraints. Luckily, for Nintendo, the game's plot - plot holes and all - just so happens to serve well to obfuscate said constraints. Unluckily, this creates a situation in which Nintendo was perhaps forced into trading several massive plot holes with several "slightly less massive ones." That is, if my theory is in fact true...
 

Locke

Hegemon
Site Staff
Joined
Nov 24, 2009
Location
Redmond, Washington
what if the graphical direction of the game somehow hindered all the properties of aquatic exporation - swimming, encountering Zora, etc.?
The art style is chosen to complement the gameplay. If they wanted to allow the player to swim, they would have chosen an art style that works well with that action. I'm not convinced that the graphical direction prohibits swimming anyway.
 

felipe970421

Mardek Innanu El-Enkidu
Joined
Feb 21, 2012
Location
Colombia
Even if it was due to graphical constraints, how does that make it any less valid? Is Termina being an alternate universe less valid because of the reused models?

They didn't want Zora for whatever reason, so they put the Rito, then, they justified their existence, I don't see the argument
 
Joined
Feb 23, 2011
I don't see how an inability for Link to explore the water would mean Zora's couldn't be around, but go on.

If memory serves me correctly an old sailor at the bar of Windfall Island mentions being sucked up by a Big Octo and spat out somewhere else on the map. Whilst I can't recall him explicitly stating he was left without a boat, I do remember getting the mental image of him having to swim back to shore. Also Link doesn't teleport down the the castle. He sinks down. During the entire sequence in which we find the castle Link is shown descending through the water. And the castle is very much visible after as short a time as it takes Link to stop holding his breath.

I also fail to see how not mentioning Hyrule beforehand would be a plot hole. Unless you mean no-one knowing about it is a plot-hole? Well let's remember that before the Tower of the Gods appeared that spot on the map was barren for miles. Why anyone would want to go for a swim out there is beyond me and it may well be that the area acted as a Bermuda Triangle before Link came along in the sense that those who ventured there found a watery grave awaiting them (but that's another theory I have in the making, maybe next time).

I agree it was divine intervention. But I don't agree it was simply a cop-out reason. As Locke said, if they wanted swimming they could easily have incorporated it. Twilight Princess ran on the same hardware and managed swimming just fine. All it would have taken is, as happens when you go to Hyrule castle, the water to be clear underneath the cel-shaded surface.

Completely misunderstood everything that I said... lol But what can I say, that is what I get for posting that bit after not having slept for three days. I'll hold back on defending my hypothesis for now (I refuse to call it a theory). However, I'll probably return with a theory of my own regarding the mysteries of the Great Sea. ...it's been a while. ;J
 

Doc

BoDoc Horseman
Joined
Nov 24, 2012
Gender
Male
Well, the Zoras didn't fully become bird people without the help of the goddesses. They get their wings from Valoo, I believe. This is explained when you arrive on their island, so clearly there was a divine purpose for them taking flight. What that purpose was, unknown. Most likely to keep Hyrule hidden from the world. (Short, but...eh)
 
Joined
Dec 24, 2011
I had actually not heard this theory until now. I agree with many of you that the goddesses flooded it to keep Hyrule a secret and the Zora just swimming around the castle wouldn't really help keep it a secret. Somebody was bound to find it out from them and then the goddesses efforts would have been wasted. They made the Zora tribe evolve or change or whatever you want to call it so the secret would not be uncovered.
 
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ihateghirahim

The Fierce Deity
Joined
Jan 16, 2013
Location
Inside the Moon
No way. People like the sages would have already have known about Hyrule. The Zora probably wouldn't have even been able to get to it. Even if they did, it's still sealed under the barrier. Ganondorf already knew it was down there. It makes no sense for this to happen. Anyway, the Rito make no statements about this theory anywhere I can find. Since Prince Komali's grandmother is the Zora sage Laruto, they haven't exactly had that long to forget about it.
 

Justac00lguy

BooBoo
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Jul 1, 2012
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Shewhale
No way. People like the sages would have already have known about Hyrule. The Zora probably wouldn't have even been able to get to it. Even if they did, it's still sealed under the barrier. Ganondorf already knew it was down there. It makes no sense for this to happen. Anyway, the Rito make no statements about this theory anywhere I can find. Since Prince Komali's grandmother is the Zora sage Laruto, they haven't exactly had that long to forget about it.

In fact there is no clear evidence that it is a barrier like TBR said previously in the thread, during the scene in the Tower of the God we sink down beneath the waters of Hyrule there is no clear indication of a barrier!

It seems that the secret of Hyrule was actually kept good as barely any of the tribes mention anything of the Triforce or of old Hyrule, it does make sense to not allow the Zora to have access to Hyrule as it was meant to be kept a secret however I think there are other features as to why the Zora adapted into the Rito :)
 

Cfrock

Keep it strong
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Mar 17, 2012
Location
Liverpool, England
No way. People like the sages would have already have known about Hyrule.

What sages? There are no Sages present on The Great Sea until you go an awaken new ones during the course of the game. Sages have been absent from Hyrule since the Flood.

The Zora probably wouldn't have even been able to get to it.

Why not? An ocean dwelling race of humanoid fish with astounding swimming abilities would easily be able to simply go under water. TheBlueReptile very correctly pointed out that Hyrule isn't even really far under the surface, since it only takes until Link can't hold his breath any longer before he can see the Castle. The Zora would easily be able to go that deep, probably much deeper with no problems.

Even if they did, it's still sealed under the barrier.

What barrier? There's a barrier on the bridge connecting the Castle to the rest of Hyrule but that doesn't go all around the Castle, let alone around all of Hyrule. On top of which we are told that Ganondorf is the one who put that barrier in place, not the Goddesses. From what we see in the game itself, there is no magical barrier around Hyrule preventing access. The ring of light Link must enter allows one to descend and was left by the Goddesses. There is no suggestion that simply diving beneath the surface would leave one unable to find Hyrule.

Ganondorf already knew it was down there.

As has already been explained, this is not relevant. Of course Ganondorf knew it was down there, the game explains that Hyrule was Flooded so that Ganondorf would be sealed there and the people could live in peace on the new ocean, away from Ganondorf and the Triforce that so often corrupts the hearts of men. Ganondorf knowing about Hyrule is something we know from the beginning. The Kingdom was hidden from everyone else.

Since Prince Komali's grandmother is the Zora sage Laruto, they haven't exactly had that long to forget about it.

Prince Komali is not the grandson of Laruto. This is just plain incorrect. First of all, the number of generations is left ambiguous. Laruto (and Fado for that matter) are only ever refered to as "ancestor". While a grandparent is technically an ancestor, the term is used to indicate a much longer lineage, suggesting that Laruto was alive perhaps hundreds of years before. To say only two generations have passed since Laruto's time seems incredibly unusual, as the game seems to clearly be set at least several centuries after Ocarina of Time. Enough time has passed that the legend of the Hero of Time has faded into myth and is only remembered on Outset Island, and vaguely at that. The Triforce has passed from common knowledge, The Master Sword and Sages have as well and no one lives who knows of Hyrule's existence besides Valoo, Jabun and The Great Deku Tree. Two generations is no where near sufficient time for these things to have happened, even if we ignore the evolution of the races.

Secondly, the game makes it absolutely clear that Laruto is the ancestor of Medli. That is why Medli is awakened as a Sage, because it is her destiny. That is why Medli has inherited Laruto's harp. Komali's grandmother is indeed mentioned in game; she is described as having been an attendant to Valoo. This piece of information leads to the conclusion that Komali's grandmother was a Rito, like Medli, the current attendant to Valoo.
 

Locke

Hegemon
Site Staff
Joined
Nov 24, 2009
Location
Redmond, Washington
What barrier? There's a barrier on the bridge connecting the Castle to the rest of Hyrule but that doesn't go all around the Castle, let alone around all of Hyrule. On top of which we are told that Ganondorf is the one who put that barrier in place, not the Goddesses. From what we see in the game itself, there is no magical barrier around Hyrule preventing access. The ring of light Link must enter allows one to descend and was left by the Goddesses. There is no suggestion that simply diving beneath the surface would leave one unable to find Hyrule.
The way I see it is that there are two barriers. One is the goddess's seal the placed on Hyrule to keep Ganon and his mazoku trapped inside. Ganondorf created a portal to escape this barrier, but not before constructing a second barrier of his own in order to prevent the MS from regaining its power (by blocking off the entrances to the temples).

When Link enters Hyrule, he does so by Daphnes' portal which appears to be similar in nature to Ganondorf's portal. He isn't simply sinking to the ocean floor. Compare the distance between Hyrule Castle and Ganon's Tower with the distance between the Tower of the Gods and the Forsaken Fortress (where Ganondorf's portal leads). These are legit space-warping portals. Link had to use the portal to enter Hyrule; otherwise he could have just commandeered one of the submarines in the area. So who's to say if Hyrule is visible or is even located so small a depth below the TotG?

I followed that theory for a while, but now I realize that it's just as unsupportable as any other theory regarding this issue. I still hold that it was divinely inspired just because evolution (at least as we understand it) makes no sense at all, but I think the reason may be one of those things that the world may never know.
 

ihateghirahim

The Fierce Deity
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Jan 16, 2013
Location
Inside the Moon
There has to be a barrier over Hyrule. What do you think is keeping the water up there? If there was no barrier, then there would be mountains of fish, rocks, water, and who knows what else lying all over Hyrule. Only a strong barrier could have kept Hyrule safe.

Also, if its not relevant if evil people know about it, then why would the gods go through the trouble of toying with evolution to hide it. Ganondorf could have told anyone about it. Wouldn't the gods have considered it beneficial that the Zora know about it? I mean this would only increase the chances that someone could find a away back down to the land and live there It's obvious that it didn't matter who knew about it, because only special people could get through the above-mentioned barrier.
 

felipe970421

Mardek Innanu El-Enkidu
Joined
Feb 21, 2012
Location
Colombia
The way I see it is that there are two barriers. One is the goddess's seal the placed on Hyrule to keep Ganon and his mazoku trapped inside. Ganondorf created a portal to escape this barrier, but not before constructing a second barrier of his own in order to prevent the MS from regaining its power (by blocking off the entrances to the temples).

When Link enters Hyrule, he does so by Daphnes' portal which appears to be similar in nature to Ganondorf's portal. He isn't simply sinking to the ocean floor. Compare the distance between Hyrule Castle and Ganon's Tower with the distance between the Tower of the Gods and the Forsaken Fortress (where Ganondorf's portal leads). These are legit space-warping portals. Link had to use the portal to enter Hyrule; otherwise he could have just commandeered one of the submarines in the area. So who's to say if Hyrule is visible or is even located so small a depth below the TotG?

I followed that theory for a while, but now I realize that it's just as unsupportable as any other theory regarding this issue. I still hold that it was divinely inspired just because evolution (at least as we understand it) makes no sense at all, but I think the reason may be one of those things that the world may never know.

You seem to have ignored the islands Locke, those islands have to start somewhere, if the sea is really as deep as you describe, then the mountaintops would have to be far higher then we've seen, and IRRC, Dragon roost is death mountain, so Hyrule can't be that far down
 
Joined
Feb 23, 2011
You seem to have ignored the islands Locke, those islands have to start somewhere, if the sea is really as deep as you describe, then the mountaintops would have to be far higher then we've seen, and IRRC, Dragon roost is death mountain, so Hyrule can't be that far down

More like Nintendo didn't take that factor into consideration, or rather, chose to ignore it... OR simply didn't care... <.<

One thing's for certain, though... that whole bit about the islands being the highest mountaintops of Hyrule was mentioned in-game—in the intro story, if memory serves. Kinda makes you wonder how high the mountains of Hyrule truly are.... hmm.
 

Cfrock

Keep it strong
Joined
Mar 17, 2012
Location
Liverpool, England
Also, if its not relevant if evil people know about it, then why would the gods go through the trouble of toying with evolution to hide it. Ganondorf could have told anyone about it.

Once again, Ganondorf is described as being sealed in Hyrule. The Goddesses plan involved Ganondorf being stuck down there, where he could not just tell people about it. Hyrule was hidden from everyone else because the plan of flooding Hyrule was specifically to seal Ganondorf away down there. The entire plan begins with Ganondorf knowing more than anyone else that Hyrule is flooded and that is why him knowing is not relevant. He was sealed there and because he was sealed, he was unable to just tell people about the place.
 

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