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Which games would you drop from the Zelda canon?

Cfrock

Keep it strong
Joined
Mar 17, 2012
Location
Liverpool, England
Also saying that the series has never been designed to be coherent is outright wrong
I said it hasn't been a priority. I know there's been continuity. But look at how the geography between those games that are explicitly connected doesn't match at all. Look at how the backstories don't actually match up the way they would if you prioritised the story. Look at things the developers themselves have said about how it's not important to them. Try reading what I said before quoting me next time.

Also that beginning line of WW is only there to reference OoT as told by the people in WW, so you just invalidated your own argument.
What argument? I'm giving my opinion, not presenting a case. And, again, if you actually read what I said before quoting me and getting everything wrong, I say that line from the Wind Waker is what I would like them to do, not that I think it's what they've done.
 

thePlinko

What’s the character limit on this? Aksnfiskwjfjsk
ZD Legend
I said it hasn't been a priority. I know there's been continuity. But look at how the geography between those games that are explicitly connected doesn't match at all. Look at how the backstories don't actually match up the way they would if you prioritised the story. Look at things the developers themselves have said about how it's not important to them. Try reading what I said before quoting me next time.


What argument? I'm giving my opinion, not presenting a case. And, again, if you actually read what I said before quoting me and getting everything wrong, I say that line from the Wind Waker is what I would like them to do, not that I think it's what they've done.
Fair enough
 

el :BeoWolf:

When all else fails use fire
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Centaleon
Being a bit of a zelda fan boy I'd say none, but if I really had to pick one it would be Triforce Heroes. Just about all the other main games have some sort of connection to hyrule or Zelda, but this is so nebulous timeline and story wise. Could almost be it's own series.
 

thePlinko

What’s the character limit on this? Aksnfiskwjfjsk
ZD Legend
Each Zelda game creates a story with new characters. I don’t see the problem with TP creating new deities, especially since they were technically in the story beforehand with Skyward Sword. Wind Waker, the lovely game that it is, has big plot holes that TP and most of the other ones don’t have. Why the King’s ghost was in a boat and the whole Tetra thing doesn’t make sense and is just explained as magic, TP doesn’t do that as much or at all. (I love Wind Waker, these poor plot decisions and the slow sailing is the only problem with the game)

Except the light spirits weren’t in SS, they were just named after the dragons, with ordon not even being referenced. I have no problem with creating deities either, as long they are not major and/or make sense within the already established canon. WW had cyclos and zephos, but they weren’t very important characters, and thus required no explanations. I find it very believable that they were never referenced in the 4 games prior because they simply aren’t very important. Even the three golden goddesses in OoT barely matter, they are only referenced twice in the game, in the cutscene and the names of the spells. The light spirits on the other hand are the main driving force of the first half of the game. Where did they come from? Why do they exist? This is never explained.

The king was possessing a boat in order to assist the hero, he needed a boat, the king became a boat. This ain’t rocket science here. I also see no problem with the way they handled tetra. She was the descendent of the previous Zelda. The triforce just brought out the power she already contained.

TP has tons of plot holes, or at least ones by your standards. How about why the dominion rod falls apart as soon as you leave the temple of time? Or how You can interact with objects in the twilight realm and people will notice but they can’t interact with or even notice you? When did the twilight realm become a thing? The game acts like all of these major elements have always existed when in reality they have never existed before hand, and haven’t been referenced since outside of a few one off lines of dialogue.
 

thePlinko

What’s the character limit on this? Aksnfiskwjfjsk
ZD Legend
Except there isn’t anything saying they’re not the same deities, Ganondorf is the same guy and his design changes with the games all the time. Since they share the same name and they’re both gods, we can assume they’re the same unless canon says otherwise. Majora’s Mask also creates some gods and that’s fine?

Just because he’s a spirit he can possess a boat? How did Tetra’s whole look and personality change? It’s poor writing for Tetra’s part and the boat just uses the magic thing.

Link can interact with things in the Twilight Realm and he’s not affected because he has the Triforce. People who aren’t from the Twilight Realm or has the Triforce can’t do that and the people don’t notice because they’re souls and can’t see it. The Twilight Realm did exist in the lore beforehand. First there’s the tribe the Happy Mask Salesmen talks about, possibly the dark history mentioned in OoT and the dark mirror and tribe in FSA. There’s a lot of videos explaining this better than I can so I recommend you watch one of those. Also Skyward Sword created lots of races, Minish Cap created the Minish and Spirit Tracks created the Lokomos and Anouki. For the Dominion Rod I got this from Zelda Wiki:
“Back when the Oocca still maintained contact with the Royal Family of Hyrule, the Oocca handed down the Dominion Rod.[2] This rod was only to be carried by one known as the messenger to the heavens, and it would be used by the messenger whenever the Royal Family needed to communicate with the Oocca.[3] Along with the Dominion Rod, the Oocca left the Ancient Sky Book with the Sheikah, which was to be given specifically to the Messenger to the Heavens.”
It was probably just a test to see if Link was the messenger. Also old things break all the times.

That’s like saying that beedle in SS and beedle in WW are the same person because they share a name and there is nothing in canon saying otherwise. It also doesn’t explain why Ordon exists. Majoras mask created a singular goddess which wasn’t that important, not to mention it’s in an alternate dimension entirely, one that works story wise because it is not important to the story of the game. It could have taken place in hyrule with relatively no changes made.

It’s not like spirits haven’t possessed inanimate objects in past games, mainly the transformation masks and Majoras Mask. Why would the king be any different? While Tetras apperance did change, something the triforce is more than capable of doing considering it changed links apperance in TP on multiple occasions, her personality definitely did not change as she was still quite sassy during the final battle.

I understand why he can interact with the environment, my question is why are specifically people not able to interact with him when any monster can interact with both link and humans. People can notice a stick moving around or a torch lighting but not you. These examples you are listing are mere theory, there is no conformation that these are linked to the twilight realm. The strongest connection here is the mirror in FSA, but even that could just be the magic mirror from LttP. There is nothing wrong with creating races, if that’s all TP did I would give it a pass, as races can be added or removed at any time through evolution, extinction, migration, or just the mere fact that the game takes place in a different area. Your quote from the wiki isnt proving anything but why the rod exists in the first place, which is not what my complaint is. The rod losing power to test the hero is quite the stretch as link has already proven himself just by obtaining and using it in the temple of time, if he wasn’t the messenger, why could he use it back when it still had power? Yes things break all the time but by that logic the master sword should have absolutely shattered by now.
 

el :BeoWolf:

When all else fails use fire
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Centaleon
The Master Sword broke the lore a lot of times, both with Wind Waker and Breath of the Wild. Isn’t Link the only one who can hold the blade? Both WW Zelda and BotW Zelda hold the master sword. It also breaks in BotW.
Normally the sword only allows a hero to wield it which is basically only Link, but Zelda can hold it since she, or rather her previous incarnation Hylia made the thing in the first place and I imagine Fi recognizes her as such allowing her to hold the blade. As for breaking in BotW I guess Nintendo was trying to merge game mechanics with lore which is a nice idea but the durability mechanic is just ughhh
 

thePlinko

What’s the character limit on this? Aksnfiskwjfjsk
ZD Legend
But Beedle isn’t a god, so that doesn’t work. Why is it a big deal that Ordon exists? Are most of the towns in every Zelda invalid just because they didn’t exist in OoT? There’s towns in the real world which didn’t exist in different generations.

I guess that works for the King but that’s questionable writing. The ghosts in MM weren’t important characters. Tetra’s personality dose change, at least for some part of the game. So did she forget? I like character development, but her’s seemed rushed. The Triforce wasn’t the one that changed Link’s appearance, it was the Twilight. The Triforce just made him withstand it.

Can’t they interact with him? They saw the wolf and attacked it. First, the Mirror in ALttP didn’t have a tribe attached to it. Midna’s Mask has Majora’s eye on it which hints that they are the dark tribe. Who else has a dark history with Hyrule? It’s not the Gerudo or Sheikah because they aren’t banished during that time anyway. The Temple of Time wasn’t the test for the rod though. The Master Sword broke the lore a lot of times, both with Wind Waker and Breath of the Wild. Isn’t Link the only one who can hold the blade? Both WW Zelda and BotW Zelda hold the master sword. It also breaks in BotW.


What are you talking about? Beedle is totally a god. No but in all seriousness the light spirits are not gods, and neither are the dragons. Remember the dragon lanayru dies in SS, you have to revive him through time travel. When I say ordon I’m not referring to the town, I’m referring to the light spirit, the only one you don’t have to revive. Even if the light spirits are the dragons that doesn’t explain ordon.

The ghosts in MM are incredibly important characters. Even if they are not, Majora possesses its mask and (s)he is obviously an important character. Tetras was less character development, and more just her being in shock over the fact that she’s apparently the decendant a princess. I would be shocked too, especially since I’m male. She went right back to being sassy the very next time you saw her. If the triforce simply made link withstand it, then he would have remained a human throughout the twilight realm, which would have made for a better game tbh. The triforce is also what made him change from his farmer clothes to his hero tunic.


The monsters can interact with him, I’m questioning why they can but not humans while in the twilight realm. The mirror has no confirmed tribe associated with it, but that doesn’t mean it can’t. Saying Majoras Mask has Midnas eye on it is a REALLY big stretch, as you could say that at about a lot of things. The dark segments in OoT are stated to just be prisons, and if anything they ARE associated with the Sheikah considering it is inside of the Sheikahs original town as well as the fact that impa is the sage for the temple. You have just stated in your previous reply that the dominion rod can only be wielded by the messenger to the heavens, and since link wields it in the temple, he must be the messenger and therefore needs no test. When the master sword breaks in WW there was at least a good explanation for it. The sages giving it power were murdered. I will not defend it breaking in BotW however because that was stupid. There is a difference between holding and wielding. Anyone can hold the sword, but only the hero can effectively use it.
 

DarkestLink

Darkest of all Dark Links
Joined
Oct 28, 2012
In hindsight, it kinda feels like TP was made with the intention that the series was truly based on a legend, i.e. with the Triforce never being mentioned and, in this interpretation of the legend, only being referenced as the Power of the Gods. In addition, the three characters are blessed with it, rather than obtain an actual triforce piece.

But since the series is connected and it was brought up, I actually didn't mind Hylia or Demise too much....granted, I find "Reincarnation of Demise" to be less impressive than some mortal badass who just has a God complex, it is consistant with Ganondorf's pure evil character. Hylia...I was fine with it at first, since it explains where the Royal Family's power comes from and perhaps why they consistantly have a similar looking heir they can name Zelda...but then BOTW kinda ruined it by bringing her back.

I could totally accept that Hylia was a long lost Goddess whose worship disappeared when she turned into a mortal and eventually died. But instead Hylia was simply forgotten for thousands of years until she was suddenly remembered out of nowhere and the Hylians started worshiping her again. Also, after she died, she came back to life and turned into a Goddess, somehow, which is bull**** and invalidates her entire sacrifice...
 
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Doc

BoDoc Horseman
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Nov 24, 2012
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Male
Breath of the Wild, because this one makes no sense with the timeline. I understand Nintendo doesn't want to be limited by the timeline (though, frankly, this game could easily work in the timeline if they didn't put references everywhere). For the sake of continuity, I'd have to remove this one.

And also just because of my own tastes, I'd remove Skyward Sword. It's fine enough as an origin, but I hate the idea that Ganondorf is just a reincarnation of Demise, and all Links and Zeldas are reincarnations. IMO, it makes the subsequent Links far less interesting.
 

el :BeoWolf:

When all else fails use fire
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Centaleon
Majora’s eye wouldn’t appear on the Fused Shadow if it didn’t mean anything, why else would the artists put it there,
Could be Vatti's eye as that has appeared a number of times, or the Sheikah eye. It's an eye, kinda vague if you ask me. It's probably symbolic of the power the fused shadow holds. It's so godly is can see everything.
The Shadow Temple is a prison, but that doesn’t explain the dark history. It’s most definitely not the Sheikah because they’re supposed to be protectors of the royal family,
A prison would be where you throw away any threats to the royal family, and maybe some interogation or even execution for the real threats. It's dead center in the Sheikah village. This makes it pretty clear it's theirs
 

thePlinko

What’s the character limit on this? Aksnfiskwjfjsk
ZD Legend
Ganondorf technically dies once and is reincarnated. If a god, deity, demi-god, angel, spirit, etc dies it should be reincarnated since Ganondorf has a power of one of those things to begin with. I’m still confused, what’s wrong with Ordon? You mean the ghosts of the Goron, Zora and Deku mask right? You don’t even see the deku in person and the overall lore wouldn’t be much different without the Goron and Zora ghosts, although they are a nice touch in MM’s story. The lore goes against Link not being a wolf in the Twilight. That’s why the Hero’s shade is also a wolf since he’s OoT Link. The Hero is supposed to appear as a beast.
Majora’s eye wouldn’t appear on the Fused Shadow if it didn’t mean anything, why else would the artists put it there, especially since they know the fans go crazy with the lore. Also Midna’s Mask and Majora’s Mask both contain powerful dark magic. The Shadow Temple is a prison, but that doesn’t explain the dark history. It’s most definitely not the Sheikah because they’re supposed to be protectors of the royal family, we see this since the beginning of the story, with Impa in SS. The people also attack Wolf Link. Remember the guy who sends out his hawk and Rusl?

You’re telling me that a dragon was reincarnated as a monkey? What’s wrong with ordon is the fact that you say the light spirits are reincarnations of the dragons in SS, but there was no ordon dragon making your theory not make sense. It’s really not about the lore, it’s more about the fact that in the Zelda universe spirits have been confirmed to be able to posses inanimate objects. I’m saying that it’s the triforce that allows the hero to take the form of a wolf and not a human. The eye on the helmet could mean literally anything. It’s not like Majora had the only eye in the series. It doesn’t even really look like an eye, to me the full fused shadow set looks more like a female dress, meaning this “eye” is really where the bra should be. Once again it’s not like these are the only two things in the series that contain dark magic. I would say the prison almost certainly explain the dark history, considering this is the home of gulliotines, dead hand, and a freakin torture chamber. It would make perfect sense for the Sheikah to be connected, if they were the royal family’s guards, it’s not that big of a stretch to say they were also prison guards. The people only attack wolf link outside of the twilight realm, while you are in the realm collecting tears of light they can’t see you, as they repeatedly say “what just happened?” And “where did those bugs go?”
 

thePlinko

What’s the character limit on this? Aksnfiskwjfjsk
ZD Legend
Remember, this is the same series where a demonic king appears as a blue cartoon pig or the series when an elf boy turns into a pink rabbit or a dog. So a dragon appearing as a divine monkey isn’t that weird. Since Nintendo used the same names for both spirits in TP and SS means they’re at least connected. And another point that Nintendo used some very identical symbols on the Fused Shadow that appear like Majora’s Eye and the Shiekah Eye, that’s something Nintendo wouldn’t do unless they were connected. Here’s a picture:
majorasmaskfused.png
180px-MidnaHelmEyes.jpg

Put these in colors and they’re just smaller versions.
Back to the Twilight Realm, they can see everything that’s in their world, but they can’t see the things in the darkness around it. So your example with the stick, that’s in their world so they can mess around with it, but since they don’t have the Triforce and they’re not Twili, they can’t see the wolf since they’re not in darkness covering it and they’re souls/spirits.
There is at least some explanation of those examples of transformations, unlike the monkey. Remember that these spirits were already named after the golden goddesses. I think it’s less of a connection of the spirits to the dragons but more of a connection between the spirits and the goddesses. Just because they have similar names doesn’t mean they are connected, however. For example: my real name is Robert. The reason my dad agreed the name Robert was because of General Robert E. Lee, but I am not related to him in the slightest. This is the same for the light spirits. This also doesn’t explain Ordon, who is neither named after one of the goddesses nor one of the dragons. He clearly has no connection to anything, which is why I dislike him.
I will concede to your point that the eye does look like the eye of majoras mask, however, the fact that we have to have this in depth of a discussion for me to finally realize this connection means that the game failed to tell it’s story effectively. My problem isn’t that they can affect the stick, it’s that link can and nobody notices. The other beasts of twilight are seen by humans, so why not link? The game does state that he becomes a creature of shadow so he should be seen.
 
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All of them.

Not a joke, I'd remove each and every one of them from canon and then declare, officially, that each game is simply the telling of individual legends, sometimes even the same legend, shaped by time and oral tradition and lost lore and what not. My favourite piece of Zelda lore/narrative/story/whatever is the opening line to The Wind Waker:

"This is but one of the legends of which the people speak..."

I'd have every game framed in that manner, that this is you being told a legend. It instantly resolves any and all contradictions, it leaves an infinite amount of space for the franchise to branch out narratively, you can still have specific games as direct sequels, and you can still have a thriving theory scene as people can try to piece together the meta history of the true history these legends are based on, the real events they are a corruption of.

Zelda was never designed with coherent continuity as a priority. The best thing to do would be to not pretend it was.

So, Iguess the fact that the events of of OoT are constantly mentioned in TWW means nothing? Or the fact that Ganondorf, who is the very same one from OoT acknowledges the HoT?

What about the fact that Zelda II says that it's a sequel to LoZ in its intro? Or that ALttP says on the back of its box that it's before the NES games?

There have always been chronological connections. And things being described as ''legends'' are meaningless, unless if you want to argue that Legend of Korra isn't a sequel to The Last Airbender. It's flavour text. Also, legends talk about real people, and the MS is described as ''Legendary'' in TWW, and yet we see it with our own eyes and obtain it.
 

thePlinko

What’s the character limit on this? Aksnfiskwjfjsk
ZD Legend
But the Majora eye and the Sheik eye are supposed to be hidden, it’s part of the lore in the series ,not the game’s story. If this was someone’s first Zelda game and didn’t know about Majora, they would just call the Twili mages who got banished. That’s part of the story, whether or not they’re connected is up to you decide. It doesn’t change the plot what so ever. I suppose they could be named after the other gods, but in what mythology dose that work? Zeus didn’t name Hercules after another god, Odin didn’t name Thor or Baldur after Ymir. That’s to assume they aren’t the same being and the gods didn’t all get created by the goddesses at the same time, we don’t know enough about that to say. I thought you were talking about something totally different about the stick? Why they don’t question the invisible stick floating around is because of video game logic or that they’re so confused by the monsters they didn’t notice. I don’t know, but that doesn’t affect the actual lore.

Yes however we are talking not from a lore perspective but from a major story perspective. The fact that you have to look at the most minute details in order to make any sense whatsoever of how the plot connects to the universe is bad storytelling. Sure if this is your first Zelda this would be acceptable, but for the vast majority of the fans of the series it’s not their first Zelda. Like I said earlier, the light spirits and dragons are not gods, they are beings named after gods. So it would be less like Zeus naming his child Zeus and more like me naming my child Zeus. The stick does indeed affect the lore because it is never explained that why this is a thing.
 

Cfrock

Keep it strong
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Liverpool, England
So, Iguess the fact that the events of of OoT are constantly mentioned in TWW means nothing? Or the fact that Ganondorf, who is the very same one from OoT acknowledges the HoT?

What about the fact that Zelda II says that it's a sequel to LoZ in its intro? Or that ALttP says on the back of its box that it's before the NES games?
you can still have specific games as direct sequels,
Nothing about what I said prevents specific games being explicitly connected. I say this in my post, you must have chosen to ignore it.

Also, legends talk about real people, and the MS is described as ''Legendary'' in TWW, and yet we see it with our own eyes and obtain it.
you can still have a thriving theory scene as people can try to piece together the meta history of the true history these legends are based on, the real events they are a corruption of.
Again, nothing about what I said prevents there being a true, factual, canon version of Hyrule's history, you must have chosen to ignore that, too.

There have always been chronological connections.
Between certain games, yes, but I never said there weren't. What I said was that making those connections coherent was never a priority.

Take The Wind Waker as an example. It broadly references Ganon's defeat in Ocarina of Time and then later you find stained glass windows depicting the sages. But Hyrule Castle is entirely different in its architecture. It's also built on a lake. The landscape of Hyrule doesn't even remotely match that of Ocarina. They say the islands of The Great Sea are the mountain tops of Hyrule but not only does Ocarina not feature even one mountain tall enough to suit that purpose, the mountains we see when in Hyrule in Wind Waker don't go above the surface. The connection between these two games only exists because we are told it exists, the developers didn't put any effort into making the two games coherently line up beyond 'It's after Ocarina', 'Look, the sages', and 'The Master Sword is here... in a different location from Ocarina despite it being said only a true hero can move it.'

Twilight Princess is also explicitly connected to Ocarina and yet, again, the geography of Hyrule is entirely different, the Castle is entirely different, the sages are suddenly glowing ghosts and not people from around the realm, and there's a gigantic prison in the desert with a portal to another realm. The connection exists but it is not important enough to the developers for them to make sure the world matches up. The coherency of the connection was not their priority.

Adventure of Link and A Link Between Worlds are the only direct sequels that don't mess about with things like geography. Adventure of Link has the original game's Hyrule in the south west corner of the map, everything else is lands beyond it. A Link Between Worlds is the same Hyrule as A Link to the Past, the only notable difference being they built a temple where that fairy fountain was in Lake Hylia. These connections are more coherent, but when you consider that 90% of Adventure's map is brand new and the original map is no more than a playful nod to the first game, and that A Link Between Worlds was born from Miyamoto wanting to do a straight remake of A Link to the Past, it becomes clear why these exceptions exist.

If these loose connections are enough for you to accept all the contradictions and questions they raise then you do you. My entire point is that these contradictions, and the fact that the timeline still doesn't make sense even after an official version, demonstrate that Nintendo don't bother with coherent continuity. And if they're not going to bother with it, I think they should stop pretending they do. Framing each game as a version of a true story, like I said in my above post, not only resolves existing issues with continuity but frees the writers and designers up for future games to not have to consciously consider them. Nothing is lost. Hyrule still has a real history, it's just supplemental and left more for theory hunters to piece together (or you could have a meta-plot like in Assassin's Creed or something, but this would require Nintendo to think stories are important). Nintendo can continue designing Zelda games the way they always have without the added pressure of 'How does this fit into the timeline?' And the games themselves aren't beholden to any fixed world, landscape, or concepts and can thus branch out in whatever way they want and be as imaginative as they want.

I never said continuity doesn't exist. I said Nintendo don't consider it to be important and would, I believe, be better off reframing the series in the manner I suggested.
 

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