- Joined
- Oct 10, 2017
After kicking the idea around, and giving it some time, I think it's time to lay out where I think Echoes of Wisdom takes place in the timeline, and why.
My first clue was the familiarity the royal family has to the citizens in Castle Town. As kingdoms grow larger, the less familiar the leaders become with the people. We even see in Minish Cap, that the only citizen Zelda seems familiar with is Link. We also see that Zelda only becomes familiar with the common citizen, in Breath of the Wild and Tears of the Kingdom, after the kingdom effectively falls under the Calamity. Back to EoW, where Zelda is known for playing with the town's children, and the king knows citizens by name. On top of that, the Hylians in castle town seem far more aware they are talking with a princess than the Hylians in Kakariko Village.
Speaking of Kakariko Village, the number of houses and population, compared to the same location we see in A Link to the Past and A Link Between Worlds.
Back to the royalty. The people beyond the Hyrulians are not familiar with Hyrule or it's royalty. Even when Zelda reveals that she is a princess, the Zora, the Gorons, and the Gerudo don't have much of a reaction, then keep treating her more like a helpful adventurer. I specifically don't include the Deku Scrubs in this point, because everything we have seen of them through the series suggests that they only really care about their own society. I think they would act the same regardless of the state of the Hyrule Kingdom.
While I don't think the map greater provides any definitive time placement information because I've previously shown that the maps across the series does line up nicely. Here is a link to my latest iteration, if you are not familiar with that work: https://zeldadungeon.net/forum/threads/hyrule-topography-2-0.75869/ . There are details we can find that can help with placement... or confuse it for a moment. We do have a few temple ruins that look to be in disrepair, such as the Desert Palace, that can be used to place the game after A Link Between Worlds. On the other hand, we have the low population, and the absence of any evidence of Link's house from ALttP have ever existed, suggesting a placement before A Link to the Past. For me, it's the broken locations that are easier to fix, literally. After Zelda and Link brought an end to Null's rifts, there would be no reason for the people to repair their important sites that would have fallen into ruin during the conflict with monsters.
And, for those who say that the similarites to ALttP/ALBW map suggests a placement close to that timeframe, I would like to bring your attention to map elements that look to be in the Minish Cap map as well.
(To be fair, the far West section, where I suggest the Wind Ruins of Minish Cap may be found, is a hidden location. The location could very well be to the South of the selected area, instead of West. I selected this location due to the three sections where the large sections where the statues may fit from MC, and the mysterious stone walls found around the location. In EoW, as far as I can find, we just play an acorn game.) This means that if we are using the larger map features to indicate a time placement, which I have already stated isn't very strong, these features would suggest a connection to Minish Cap as well.
Volvagia's presence not being connected to an item suggests that the dragon is still alive in this era to be used by Null. Volvagia is resurected in Ocarina of Time.
We also don't have any indication of a previous hero, or any previous cycles. Nearly every game acknowledges a previous hero, Zelda, or a cycle, once it was established. The first few games that were published gets a pass on this, due to the greater narrative we have now not being figured out at the time. No text or art work. What we do have, are the birds, likely loftwings, displayed in the castle's exterior windows. This would indicate the more recent important history. Once the loftwing imagery fades from Hyrule, save for the royal crest, it makes more sence for it to stay gone, rather than to come back for no seen reason.
If the Light Force is connected to the Triforce, possibly even being a different name for the Triforce of Wisdom, Zelda in EoW acquiering the triforce before MC makes it easier for Zelda to inherit the golden triangle later.
The triforce name and location not being known also indicates a quite early timeline placement. Even in Wind Waker, the name of the Triforce is not entierly gone, but has degraded over time. With Impa telling Zelda, "When it [the Triforce] has served it's puropse, it must be secreted away, to lie dormant once again...the knowledge of it's existence hidden from mortal history." we know that Early Hyrule, after Skyward Sword, would not have any history of it. What texts are said to exist, reffer to a Prime Energy, and the goddesses even directly reffer to it as such. It follows that the Prime Energy
The goddesses are still in, or at least connected to the land, at the time of EoW, evedent by Null attacking specific locations, to threaten the three goddesses. We also know, by the creation story given by the Great Deku Tree in OoT, that the same goddesses have left the land, by the time of OoT.
What really seals the deal, for me, is most easily see in this image:
Every time we see the sacred relm representd, it is with a clif over looking an empty air area, often with floating/gravity-defying bits of land. There is no Sacred Realm in Skyward Sword, only the Silent Realm, which functions differently. With Null eliminated from it's prison, this would become the most secure location in the universe. The perfect location to keep the Triforce, and purify to become sacred.
Puting all of this togeather, I belive that Echoes of Wisdom takes place between Skyward Sword and Echoes of Wisdom
As Null is defeated, It's last state has what is best described as it's shell being smashed into a mask. We see masks again in Minish Cap.
If monsters created by Null, or even just residual energies, are able to survive past Null's destruction, it follows that containing them would be an easier solution, as apposed to just killing them, and that the energy could remain for so much time in a locked prison. Also notice the purple cloud energy following behind the masks released from the chest. The defeat of Null may even be where the sealing masks, and masks of power originated from. This may even extend to the Masked Followers, that featured in A Link Between Worlds.
Though I am not a fan of it, because it goes against another theory I like better, I will include the idea that the Tri may have been turned into the minish, for the sake of completion, and to say it is a possibility. The idea came to mind, as I finishe dthe game, but this video explains the connections between the two better than I will go into here. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzaNmEBMYcQ&t=2s
Being that the land and structures pulled through rifts remain in the Still World, to deacay after some vague amount of time, likely due to the influince of the still currently active Null, all of this material could easily be present in the later called Sacred Realm, when Ganondorf was locked in Null's old prison. This would make it easier for Ganondorf to remake the realm, explaining why the Dark World in ALttP would look so different from renditions of the Sacred Realm, despite being one in the same.
It is also possibel that the EoW Link is the Hero of Man. He is far more intereasted in saving the people, as apposed to most other links that seem to be more intereasted in saving Zelda. We also have him fighting back a darkness, which could easily be the rifts.
Take notice of the purple clouds. They may not have the same spikey visuals of the rifts, but that is eaily covered by the idea that the in universe artist decided it looked better. The same thing can be said for one reasoning behind the two Links having different headgear and shield. It could also be that his style has changed. EoW would be before reciving the Picori blade. For good measure, I am including an image of the end scene of EoW, with Link trying out different blades, and the Staind glass from Minish cap.
Neither blade looks like the Picori Blade we see in the lower stained glass, which matches the blade we see later in the chest. Both swords do, infact, have similar features to the weapon in the upper stained glass. Seeing these differences exist in the stained glass, and how the Four Sword changes it's features through Minish cap, I wouldn't be supprised if the Picori Blade also went through similar changes.
I had theorized before that the Sheikah we see after the time of Minish cap came from Carlov, who runs the Figurine Gallery, in MC, based on us not seeing any Sheikah in the game, but his figurines having a strange ammount of knowledge. Placing the two Sheikah before is only a minor adjustment. We classically see Sheikah in small numbers, up until the recent past of Breath of the Wild. Carlov may still be a mimber, just not the first after Skyward Sword. The SS Impa may have been the last of her clan at the time of making the statement, but the clan does presist, or even return, at some point. So, their presence is not a problem.
The biggest sticking point against all of this would seem to be the presence of Ganon's echo. I know from my discussions about my time placement for Rauru's Hyrule, that people are still convenced that the OoT Ganondorf is the first, and he becomes the first Ganon. Thing is, we have nothing telling us that the OoT Ganondorf is the first, but the very nature of the ongoing cycle, combined with the already well known Gerudo king every hundred years suggests that he wasn't. We also never see Ganon, or Ganondorf. We don't know enough about this particular echo. All we do know about Ganon, is that his apperance is not likely considered a return, as would be expected for any time after OoT. Nobody who talks about Ganon seems the least bit familiar with the "Blue Demon." It would seem that the "Blue Demon" is more connected the trident, similar to how Zelda can make use of Lik's sword to create a type of echo of Link. We don't even have enough information about the trident, for that mater. Null's access to the trident, and the trident's powers are never specified, or even hinted at. Explinations for Ganon's echo can range from preminition, ancient demons that look like future individuals, the first Ganondorf/Ganon having an early presence, even time travel, and so on, none of which are out of place in the Zelda universe.
My first clue was the familiarity the royal family has to the citizens in Castle Town. As kingdoms grow larger, the less familiar the leaders become with the people. We even see in Minish Cap, that the only citizen Zelda seems familiar with is Link. We also see that Zelda only becomes familiar with the common citizen, in Breath of the Wild and Tears of the Kingdom, after the kingdom effectively falls under the Calamity. Back to EoW, where Zelda is known for playing with the town's children, and the king knows citizens by name. On top of that, the Hylians in castle town seem far more aware they are talking with a princess than the Hylians in Kakariko Village.
Speaking of Kakariko Village, the number of houses and population, compared to the same location we see in A Link to the Past and A Link Between Worlds.
Back to the royalty. The people beyond the Hyrulians are not familiar with Hyrule or it's royalty. Even when Zelda reveals that she is a princess, the Zora, the Gorons, and the Gerudo don't have much of a reaction, then keep treating her more like a helpful adventurer. I specifically don't include the Deku Scrubs in this point, because everything we have seen of them through the series suggests that they only really care about their own society. I think they would act the same regardless of the state of the Hyrule Kingdom.
While I don't think the map greater provides any definitive time placement information because I've previously shown that the maps across the series does line up nicely. Here is a link to my latest iteration, if you are not familiar with that work: https://zeldadungeon.net/forum/threads/hyrule-topography-2-0.75869/ . There are details we can find that can help with placement... or confuse it for a moment. We do have a few temple ruins that look to be in disrepair, such as the Desert Palace, that can be used to place the game after A Link Between Worlds. On the other hand, we have the low population, and the absence of any evidence of Link's house from ALttP have ever existed, suggesting a placement before A Link to the Past. For me, it's the broken locations that are easier to fix, literally. After Zelda and Link brought an end to Null's rifts, there would be no reason for the people to repair their important sites that would have fallen into ruin during the conflict with monsters.
And, for those who say that the similarites to ALttP/ALBW map suggests a placement close to that timeframe, I would like to bring your attention to map elements that look to be in the Minish Cap map as well.
(To be fair, the far West section, where I suggest the Wind Ruins of Minish Cap may be found, is a hidden location. The location could very well be to the South of the selected area, instead of West. I selected this location due to the three sections where the large sections where the statues may fit from MC, and the mysterious stone walls found around the location. In EoW, as far as I can find, we just play an acorn game.) This means that if we are using the larger map features to indicate a time placement, which I have already stated isn't very strong, these features would suggest a connection to Minish Cap as well.
Volvagia's presence not being connected to an item suggests that the dragon is still alive in this era to be used by Null. Volvagia is resurected in Ocarina of Time.
We also don't have any indication of a previous hero, or any previous cycles. Nearly every game acknowledges a previous hero, Zelda, or a cycle, once it was established. The first few games that were published gets a pass on this, due to the greater narrative we have now not being figured out at the time. No text or art work. What we do have, are the birds, likely loftwings, displayed in the castle's exterior windows. This would indicate the more recent important history. Once the loftwing imagery fades from Hyrule, save for the royal crest, it makes more sence for it to stay gone, rather than to come back for no seen reason.
If the Light Force is connected to the Triforce, possibly even being a different name for the Triforce of Wisdom, Zelda in EoW acquiering the triforce before MC makes it easier for Zelda to inherit the golden triangle later.
The triforce name and location not being known also indicates a quite early timeline placement. Even in Wind Waker, the name of the Triforce is not entierly gone, but has degraded over time. With Impa telling Zelda, "When it [the Triforce] has served it's puropse, it must be secreted away, to lie dormant once again...the knowledge of it's existence hidden from mortal history." we know that Early Hyrule, after Skyward Sword, would not have any history of it. What texts are said to exist, reffer to a Prime Energy, and the goddesses even directly reffer to it as such. It follows that the Prime Energy
The goddesses are still in, or at least connected to the land, at the time of EoW, evedent by Null attacking specific locations, to threaten the three goddesses. We also know, by the creation story given by the Great Deku Tree in OoT, that the same goddesses have left the land, by the time of OoT.
What really seals the deal, for me, is most easily see in this image:
Every time we see the sacred relm representd, it is with a clif over looking an empty air area, often with floating/gravity-defying bits of land. There is no Sacred Realm in Skyward Sword, only the Silent Realm, which functions differently. With Null eliminated from it's prison, this would become the most secure location in the universe. The perfect location to keep the Triforce, and purify to become sacred.
Puting all of this togeather, I belive that Echoes of Wisdom takes place between Skyward Sword and Echoes of Wisdom
----------------------------------------- Further Connections -----------------------------------------
While I don't think these next points serve as evedence, on their own, I think they support the idea, or are possible if I am correct.
While I don't think these next points serve as evedence, on their own, I think they support the idea, or are possible if I am correct.
As Null is defeated, It's last state has what is best described as it's shell being smashed into a mask. We see masks again in Minish Cap.
If monsters created by Null, or even just residual energies, are able to survive past Null's destruction, it follows that containing them would be an easier solution, as apposed to just killing them, and that the energy could remain for so much time in a locked prison. Also notice the purple cloud energy following behind the masks released from the chest. The defeat of Null may even be where the sealing masks, and masks of power originated from. This may even extend to the Masked Followers, that featured in A Link Between Worlds.
Though I am not a fan of it, because it goes against another theory I like better, I will include the idea that the Tri may have been turned into the minish, for the sake of completion, and to say it is a possibility. The idea came to mind, as I finishe dthe game, but this video explains the connections between the two better than I will go into here. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzaNmEBMYcQ&t=2s
Being that the land and structures pulled through rifts remain in the Still World, to deacay after some vague amount of time, likely due to the influince of the still currently active Null, all of this material could easily be present in the later called Sacred Realm, when Ganondorf was locked in Null's old prison. This would make it easier for Ganondorf to remake the realm, explaining why the Dark World in ALttP would look so different from renditions of the Sacred Realm, despite being one in the same.
It is also possibel that the EoW Link is the Hero of Man. He is far more intereasted in saving the people, as apposed to most other links that seem to be more intereasted in saving Zelda. We also have him fighting back a darkness, which could easily be the rifts.
Take notice of the purple clouds. They may not have the same spikey visuals of the rifts, but that is eaily covered by the idea that the in universe artist decided it looked better. The same thing can be said for one reasoning behind the two Links having different headgear and shield. It could also be that his style has changed. EoW would be before reciving the Picori blade. For good measure, I am including an image of the end scene of EoW, with Link trying out different blades, and the Staind glass from Minish cap.
Neither blade looks like the Picori Blade we see in the lower stained glass, which matches the blade we see later in the chest. Both swords do, infact, have similar features to the weapon in the upper stained glass. Seeing these differences exist in the stained glass, and how the Four Sword changes it's features through Minish cap, I wouldn't be supprised if the Picori Blade also went through similar changes.
----------------------------------------- Problems? -----------------------------------------
I had theorized before that the Sheikah we see after the time of Minish cap came from Carlov, who runs the Figurine Gallery, in MC, based on us not seeing any Sheikah in the game, but his figurines having a strange ammount of knowledge. Placing the two Sheikah before is only a minor adjustment. We classically see Sheikah in small numbers, up until the recent past of Breath of the Wild. Carlov may still be a mimber, just not the first after Skyward Sword. The SS Impa may have been the last of her clan at the time of making the statement, but the clan does presist, or even return, at some point. So, their presence is not a problem.
The biggest sticking point against all of this would seem to be the presence of Ganon's echo. I know from my discussions about my time placement for Rauru's Hyrule, that people are still convenced that the OoT Ganondorf is the first, and he becomes the first Ganon. Thing is, we have nothing telling us that the OoT Ganondorf is the first, but the very nature of the ongoing cycle, combined with the already well known Gerudo king every hundred years suggests that he wasn't. We also never see Ganon, or Ganondorf. We don't know enough about this particular echo. All we do know about Ganon, is that his apperance is not likely considered a return, as would be expected for any time after OoT. Nobody who talks about Ganon seems the least bit familiar with the "Blue Demon." It would seem that the "Blue Demon" is more connected the trident, similar to how Zelda can make use of Lik's sword to create a type of echo of Link. We don't even have enough information about the trident, for that mater. Null's access to the trident, and the trident's powers are never specified, or even hinted at. Explinations for Ganon's echo can range from preminition, ancient demons that look like future individuals, the first Ganondorf/Ganon having an early presence, even time travel, and so on, none of which are out of place in the Zelda universe.
So, not actually problems against the time placement, but might even provide a little support.
