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What Makes the Miyamoto Order Invalid.

C

Caleb, Of Asui

Guest
Nintendo Power: Where do all the Zelda games fall into place when arranged chronologically by their stories?
Miyamoto: Ocarina of Time is the first story, then the original Legend of Zelda, then Zelda II: The Adventure of Link, and finally A Link to the Past. It's not very clear where Link's Awakening fits in--it could be anytime after Ocarina of Time.



This is the oldest official timeline quote that I know of. It comes directly from Miyamoto, who's at the head of the whole series, yet so many people now so easily disregard it. Why?

Here are a few points I'd like to make about the subject:

1. Miyamoto's Intentions: What's the reason for Miyamoto to tell us this order if it's invalid? Do Zelda fans honestly agree that the series' creator would deliberately mislead us? He can't have remembered incorrectly from a company meeting - he's the one that made the decision on this order in the first place.

2. OoT-LttP Connection: I do know that the whole timeline debate started with a supposed connection between Ocarina of Time and A Link to the Past. Most timeline theorists now, with the way the timeline splits, consider this a false connection. I think the reason Nintendo made Ocarina of Time similar to A Link to the Past's backstory was to get people thinking about the story more (which definitely worked). Then, once that was established, Miyamoto came out and said "this is the order." It would have been less appropriate before that, because nobody cared.

3. Twilight Princess supports this order, given the location of the Triforce. Let's look at how it flows with both orders:

OoT: Triforce is in the Sacred Realm.
TP: Reveals that it was removed and split during OoT, and is still split.
LoZ/AoL: Has been split since "MANY YEARS AGO" and is rejoined in the story.
LttP Backstory: Ganon is trapped in the Sacred Realm with the Triforce, which he uses to make the Sacred Realm the Dark World.
LttP: All three pieces with Ganon, trapped in the Dark World. Later retrieved by Link.

The other way...

OoT: Triforce is in the Sacred Realm.
TP: Reveals that it was removed and split during OoT, and is still split.
LttP Backstory: Ganon is trapped in the Sacred Realm with the Triforce, which he uses to make the Sacred Realm the Dark World.
LttP: All three pieces with Ganon, trapped in the Dark World. Later retrieved by Link.
LoZ/AoL: Has been split since "MANY YEARS AGO" and is rejoined in the story.

Which one fits better? The first one. The Triforce flows very simply and exactly from one location to the next. In the second, it jumps around quite a lot and many more stories have to be created outside of the canon to support the order.

4. Childish attitude towards Miyamoto. I was away from the computer for a bit during this post, and during that bit, my little 7-year-old sister and my dad got into a small argument about her having her pillowcase downstairs. Basically, my sister said "there was no rule about it", my dad said "I said it was a rule that pillowcase stays upstairs", and my sister said "That's a rule Dad made, it doesn't count."

Those who disregard what Miyamoto says about the timeline are doing the same thing as my 7-year-old sister.
 
Joined
May 16, 2008
Location
Kentucky, USA
I'm going to have to be 7 years old then I guess, lawl. I can't say why Miyamoto would have stated that. Your theory about the Triforce works quite well too. But I have to go with the box of ALttP. It clearly says the "predecessors of Link and Zelda". The only Link and Zelda known at this point were the ones from LoZ/AoL, so that tells us that ALttP is a distant prequel.

Also, ALttP (P for "Past"), regardless of what the Japanese title is, makes reference to a past event. I can't provide a quote or anything, but I did hear one time that ALttP's intention was to give some backstory to Hyrule, and how Ganon came to be. That's exactly what that game does. It tells about Ganondorf, the King of Theives, and how he ended up becoming Ganon, the King of Evil. It gives us some kind of story to original games since there really wasn't much in them. It fits a lot better as a distant prequel.

You used the placement of the Triforce as an example. Well, I'm going to use the placement of the Master Sword, and some apparent facts about Ganon/dorf, as my examples.

OoT - MS is in the ToT. Ganondorf makes an attempt at stealing the Triforce (first Ganondorf event)

TP - MS is still where the ToT used to be (now in ruins), and slowly being covered in a forest. Ganondorf prosecuted for his actions, somehow obtains the ToP. Apparently loses the ToP at the end.

FSA - Master Sword is avoided, probably because it was the Four Sword that was the main focus of the game. Ganondorf is talked about as going to the "pyramid" and stealing the "Trident of Power", thus becoming Ganon.

ALttP - MS is in a forest (Lost Woods). Ganon has been sealed inside the SR (in the BS of this game). In the SR, we see the Pyramid (where Ganon stays), and he has the Trident still.

LoZ/AoL - MS is no where to be found. Ganon is still a pig/beast.

At the very end of ALttP, it says that "The Master Sword Sleeps... FOREVER!". I believe that, according to my timeline, this has been true thus far (aside from a cameo appearance in OoX). My CT would go like this:

OoT/MM--TP--FS/FSA--ALttP/LA--OoX--LoZ/AoL (OoX may come after LoZ/AoL, but that's a different discussion)

Other than that Miyamoto quote about the timeline, nothing so far has led me to believe that ALttP could be after LoZ/AoL. No games that have came out since then have hinted towards that, unless you consider your Triforce placement. However, I consider my MS placement over that, and TP put the continuation of the MS' placement from OoT to ALttP in very good perspective.
 
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The reason why I think the Miyamoto Timeline is invalid is because Miyamoto said it back in the 90's when NOA did a bad job translating things.
It's pretty well known that NOA messed up at translating a lot of things(like ALTTP's backstory).

Also there were a lot less Zelda games back then as well.
Back then everyone thought that OOT was the Seal War that ALTTP talked about.
Today there are a lot more Zelda games, and the Miyamoto Timeline just does not fit anymore.

That's why I think the Miyamoto Timeline is invalid.
 

Skull_Kid

Bugaboo!
Joined
Sep 15, 2008
Location
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Some of the quotes were later contradicted with the release of newer games, of course.
Also, if you look closely, in OoT, the MS is in the Temple of Time, in TP you see it in it's ruins, wich, apparently, are in the Lost Woods, due to the music(maybe with the course of time, the woods spreaded far and wide), and it's location in ALttP is very similar to it's location in TP, except that all ruins are gone except for the altar.
Also, MS's appearance in OoX is not to be considered canonical, it only appears via Passwords, so I highly doubt it's canonicity
 
C

Caleb, Of Asui

Guest
I can see what you're all saying. There's one thing I'd like to make sure of for myself, though. A lot of you are saying it was probably mistranslated. (I suppose with a lot of things in language like Japanese and Chinese written in backwards sentence structure, this could lead to mistakes from bad translators.) But, what exactly was Miyamoto saying if it was incorrectly translated? Is the original Japanese quote somewhere on the internet? If we had that, I'm sure someone on the forums knows enough Japanese to make a better translation.
 

Zemen

[Insert Funny Statement]
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Illinois
I can see what you're all saying. There's one thing I'd like to make sure of for myself, though. A lot of you are saying it was probably mistranslated. (I suppose with a lot of things in language like Japanese and Chinese written in backwards sentence structure, this could lead to mistakes from bad translators.) But, what exactly was Miyamoto saying if it was incorrectly translated? Is the original Japanese quote somewhere on the internet? If we had that, I'm sure someone on the forums knows enough Japanese to make a better translation.

I honestly don't think he was mistranslated. Other than mixing up ALTTP by putting it after LoZ/AoL, his timeline easily could have been the correct one AT ITS TIME. With plenty of games out since that timeline, a lot of stuff he has said is overruled by in game events that make his quotes false. The back of the original ALTTP box says the characters are predecessors to Link and Zelda. There were only one Link and Zelda at that time so it has to go before LoZ/AoL. I understand that Miyamoto is the leader of the series, but no matter how many times he tells you that ALTTP goes after LoZ/AoL, the text on every single box in the world won't magically change to ancestors. The game is always going to be more canon than ANYTHING the creators say and the games have done a fine job of destroying the Miyamoto Timeline.
 
C

Caleb, Of Asui

Guest
the games have done a fine job of destroying the Miyamoto Timeline.

Didn't I just say that Twilight Princess SUPPORTS the Miyamoto Timeline?

Something I'd like to say about the back of the box: It's the BACK of a BOX! Since when did the people who wrote what's back there ever care about what they're writing? It also happens to say "Link ventures back to the land of Hyrule," right before the predecessor thing. (Image) This would suggest they're the same Link and Zelda as the first two games, but we all know they're not. That's never debated.

Another thing regarding the box quote: "predecessors" may very well have been a deliberate mistake. The same kind of thing happened in the second Harry Potter book, where the author wrote "ancestor" where she meant to write "descendant." Fans of that series got worked up in the same way and began theorising about time travel, but the author said later that it was a deliberate mistake. Perhaps the same kind of thing happened here. I won't say for sure, though, since I still stand by the people writing the box not knowing or caring what they were writing.

I'll move a little bit away from the box and focus more on Zemen's post. It seems like you're suggesting that at some point they decided to entirely rewrite the timeline from they had in the first place. I'd like to know when exactly you think this happened. I would like to see what evidence you can provide that this actually happened.
 
F

FinalFantasy

Guest
The SNES box may have been a mistake as someone said before me, but I think I have heard that it is the GBA Manual that is canon now. I have not read the GBA Manual but if it was a mistake, they may have corrected when the game was released for the GBA.
 
Joined
Oct 18, 2007
I will tell you what exactly made his original planned timeline invalid...

Eiji Aonuma.

Nuff said. :D
 
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Location
Kentucky, USA
Didn't I just say that Twilight Princess SUPPORTS the Miyamoto Timeline?

Miyamoto's timeline puts ALttP at the very end. ALttP talks about Ganondorf trying to steal the Triforce from the SR and being sealed within it. That is where he became Ganon UNTIL ALttP. That is why Ganon is still in the SR (now the Dark World), in ALttP. If LoZ came before it, Ganon being in there wouldn't make sense. TP doesn't do anything to help this either. The fact is that Ganon stayed in the SR until ALttP from the time he was sealed. He went in a human and became a beast (permanently?). So it only makes sense that the games where we see him in his pig form come after ALttP.

I'll move a little bit away from the box and focus more on Zemen's post. It seems like you're suggesting that at some point they decided to entirely rewrite the timeline from they had in the first place. I'd like to know when exactly you think this happened. I would like to see what evidence you can provide that this actually happened.

The Miyamoto timeline never made sense; Not then, and not now. The timeline was rewritten because games were added, but OoT, ALttP, LoZ and AoL still come in that order, there are just games in between, before, and after them now.
 
C

Caleb, Of Asui

Guest
If the Miyamoto order never made sense, why was it even there in the first place?

Honestly, though, I am almost convinced that the order is LttP then LoZ - it does fit in numerous ways (I read the topic about the reason the title is A Link to the Past) - but I'm not willing to say that's the correct reason until somebody gives a legitimate reason for Miyamoto to give this order when it's incorrect.
 

Steve

5/19/13
Joined
Aug 25, 2008
Location
Florida
The Miyamoto timeline never made sense; Not then, and not now. The timeline was rewritten because games were added, but OoT, ALttP, LoZ and AoL still come in that order, there are just games in between, before, and after them now.
Exactly, and it would seem that people think that what he has said, still stands. His statement was years ago, and is far outdated, but yes, the basic order is still intact only with filler games in between. The problem that is created, however, is that Link's Awakening is supposed to be a direct sequel to A Link to the Past, but that's a completely different thing.
 

Zemen

[Insert Funny Statement]
Joined
Nov 11, 2008
Location
Illinois
you're suggesting that at some point they decided to entirely rewrite the timeline from they had in the first place. I'd like to know when exactly you think this happened. I would like to see what evidence you can provide that this actually happened.

So you want to know when this exactly happened? When they decided to rewrite the timeline? I have an extremely easy answer for you. It was when they decided to add more games to the series and when they decided there was a split timeline. And as other people have said, the basic order is still there (OoT-ALTTP-LoZ/AoL) in the same exact order just with other games in between them.
 
C

Caleb, Of Asui

Guest
It was when they decided to add more games to the series and when they decided there was a split timeline.

Good job, Zemen. You have me convinced, and that makes perfect sense. To add, I also think that Miyamoto wanted to point out that Ocarina of Time was not the Seal War, which definitely still stood when they switched to a split timeline.

I would make this post longer, but I don't really have that much more to say.

One more random question: Why am I the only person on the forums who's ever convinced of anything? ˉ\(°_o)/ˉ
 

Zemen

[Insert Funny Statement]
Joined
Nov 11, 2008
Location
Illinois
Good job, Zemen. You have me convinced, and that makes perfect sense. To add, I also think that Miyamoto wanted to point out that Ocarina of Time was not the Seal War, which definitely still stood when they switched to a split timeline.

I would make this post longer, but I don't really have that much more to say.

One more random question: Why am I the only person on the forums who's ever convinced of anything? ˉ\(°_o)/ˉ

Everyone gets convinced of stuff, you just seem to be the only one that openly says it (which isn't a bad thing). I really thought you were being sarcastic when you said I convinced you haha.
 

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