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What Annoyed You Today?

I think sometimes it's a lack of compatibility between teacher and student. Oftentimes if someone is struggling with something, they'll do better with a teacher who also struggled with that, because they'll be better equipped to relate and understand what exactly they are hung up on and have solutions to offer from their own experience. When I was in school, and I guess the math comparisons just keep coming, it's especially the case with math teachers because of how concise the processes are. because there's a difference between assuming the reason behind why someone isn't grasping the concept (and possibly underestimating their intelligence which will alienate the student and discourage them from asking questions), and actually understanding why they're not grasping the concept.

I'm not sure if this is QUITE the issue in this scenario, but from what I can see, if this is someone you're mentoring or instructing, and you're frustrated, then you may actually want to consider referring them to someone else, because the more frustrated you are, the more frustrated they will be and it sounds like a communication issue and not so much the material.
 

TheGreatCthulhu

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I think sometimes it's a lack of compatibility between teacher and student. Oftentimes if someone is struggling with something, they'll do better with a teacher who also struggled with that, because they'll be better equipped to relate and understand what exactly they are hung up on and have solutions to offer from their own experience. When I was in school, and I guess the math comparisons just keep coming, it's especially the case with math teachers because of how concise the processes are. because there's a difference between assuming the reason behind why someone isn't grasping the concept (and possibly underestimating their intelligence which will alienate the student and discourage them from asking questions), and actually understanding why they're not grasping the concept.

I'm not sure if this is QUITE the issue in this scenario, but from what I can see, if this is someone you're mentoring or instructing, and you're frustrated, then you may actually want to consider referring them to someone else, because the more frustrated you are, the more frustrated they will be and it sounds like a communication issue and not so much the material.
It was on an advice exchange group.

The OP mentioned wanting all 12 major and minor scale shapes, I probed to figure out what was actually needed. Come to find out he has all this knowledge, and was refusing to apply it, the only thing he didn't know was the notes on the fretboard.

So I said, "Sounds like what's really needed isn't scale diagrams, but for you to learn the notes on the fretboard."

It was then that the guy called me annoying.

I was just annoyed because I really hate it when someone actually has the knowledge for them to figure it out, and they refuse to apply it. And it's more of a minor annoyance, looking back.

However, the group this was posted in has a strict rule not to insult anyone, and calling me annoying does violate the rule, so his post was deleted because of that.

:shrug:

Everything else besides that is really moot. If you have the knowledge, I think it's more valuable to apply it, and refusing to do so I've always thought was being lazy.

On top of that, I don't like teaching people to play by rote, as it's not really understanding the musicality of why something works, something as a music teacher, I should always be imparting to people who ask for help in understanding something.
 

Morbid Minish

Spooky Scary Skeleton.
Forum Volunteer
That might be a your school problem...

Math might not be a great metaphor to explain it then

Bottom line is that tabs are bad for learning "how to make music" and don't really make sense to be used as a metric for progress either
It's not really a "some people learn music better some ways" thing. It's just about what you want to get out of playing an instrument

I mean, not really tbh. Memorization of multiplication tables actually still helps me quickly remember multiples now, because I learned it when I was really young and in a way that was memorable. That didn't stop me from then learning how multiplication actually works after that and being able to better understand it.

You said it yourself there though, tabs are bad for learning how to make music. I doubt someone who just picked up a guitar is planning on making music right away. So then it does become a matter of how you learn things. Just Google searching guitar tabs tells me that it can be super useful for beginners for various reasons.

This is precisely what I was getting at.

Anyone can use tabs and a scale diagram and play by rote. In fact, if you understand how to read tabs and diagrams, it's actually really easy to learn a few things this way. But when the student inevitably moves beyond that, the question always rises, "How do I use this to make music?"

It's a fundamental failure of learning how to play by your eyes, because all one did was learn by rote without learning what's actually important.

It really isn't a "people learn things differently" thing here. No matter what, people pick up an instrument to make and play music, and if I didn't give you crucial information about a musical concept so you can hear it in your favorite music, or use it to make your own music, then I failed as a music teacher.

My goals aren't to get you to play things by rote, I'd rather someone have a better understanding, hearing what something sounds like, so they can then use it to play and make music with it.

Diagrams and tabs have their place, but they only show you where to put your fingers. The actual info, that is, the musical context is missing, and that's the important thing.

But again, I think you're missing how that actually is a people learn differently thing. Because if you pick up an instrument and learn by playing tabs then it actually can help some people learn easier that way. Because the finger placement will help you remember where notes are, you're hearing the notes you're playing as you play them, etc. So it has merit. The initial question just asked about scale shapes. And you jumped ahead to writing music and more advanced stuff. Which sure is useful to know later on down the road, but when you're starting out that's not what you're thinking of.
 

Mikey the Moblin

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I could teach you how to play hot cross buns on the piano by telling you where your fingers go and what order to press them
you wouldn't know anything about piano or how to read music
but you could play hot cross buns

while I agree that in general there's nothing wrong with tabs for people who just want to play some music it feels like you're missing the point and at this point I don't think it's possible to explain any more simply
 

Morbid Minish

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I could teach you how to play hot cross buns on the piano by telling you where your fingers go and what order to press them
you wouldn't know anything about piano or how to read music
but you could play hot cross buns

while I agree that in general there's nothing wrong with tabs for people who just want to play some music it feels like you're missing the point and at this point I don't think it's possible to explain any more simply

Nah, I'm not the one missing the point. If I'm taught hot cross buns by being told where to put my fingers and what order to press them, that gets me started somewhere. I personally can remember stuff like that easier than if you tell me all the notes on the piano and then tell me the notes of hot cross buns and then tell me to play it. I'll remember how to play it way easier being taught that way, because I have to remember less and it's less to focus on. So then I get hot cross buns down and can play it easily by just remembering which keys to press. Then I can look at all the notes on the piano, and the notes of hot cross buns, and the memorization of hand movements will let me remember what each note sounds like. Sure that's not all of the keys and notes on the piano, but it's a beginning point. It doesn't overwhelm, and it allows people with certain ways of learning to grasp things easier.

You don't have to learn everything about the piano or how to read music to start learning music. And that's my point. Implying that you do keeps people who don't learn that way from potentially picking up the skill because it seems too daunting to start out with. You can get to that point, but it doesn't have to be by the same means that it's traditionally taught.
 

TheGreatCthulhu

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You don't have to learn everything about the piano or how to read music to start learning music.

You've also directly admitted that you don't know anything about music or playing an instrument. So you don't have any experience in this field.

I, however, do, considering I've been at this for 23 years.

Furthermore, this isn't a matter of "people learn things differently." The guy openly admitted to having the knowledge.

Let me make this as blunt as I can.

THE. GUY. KNEW. ALL. OF. THIS. ALREADY!!!

In other words, he had the knowledge you don't. He understood scale degrees and intervals.

He had the knowledge, and was outright refusing to apply it.

What do we call that besides laziness?
 
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Dizzi

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You've also directly admitted that you don't know anything about music or playing an instrument. So you don't have any experience in this field.

I, however, do, considering I've been at this for 23 years.

Furthermore, this isn't a matter of "people learn things differently." The guy openly admitted to having the knowledge.

Let me make this as blunt as I can.

THE. GUY. KNEW. ALL. OF. THIS. ALREADY!!!

He had the knowledge, and was outright refusing to apply it.

What do we call that besides laziness?
Okies chu calm down and forget about this thing okies dont tale the bait...
 

ExLight

why
Forum Volunteer
What do we call that besides laziness?
Maybe don't call that anything and just let the dude play the way they want/feel more comfortable with? If they think they're a certain type of learner who are we to disagree on what works best for them?

From what I read they asked something and instead got an answer saying that they should be asking for something else; which not only doesn't really answers them, but also punishes the initiative of asking others for help? I'd honestly be annoyed if people said I'm wrong on how I should learn too.

I feel like as soon you realized your views on how their learning progression should happen, the discussion should've been cut off instead of you trying to convince them to do the way you consider optimal. Same with this thread, I think it'd've been probably best if the discussion had died a few pages ago, instead of it escalating in a pseudo-class, lol.

Just leaving this post here as a heads-up.
 

Morbid Minish

Spooky Scary Skeleton.
Forum Volunteer
You've also directly admitted that you don't know anything about music or playing an instrument. So you don't have any experience in this field.

I, however, do, considering I've been at this for 23 years.

Furthermore, this isn't a matter of "people learn things differently." The guy openly admitted to having the knowledge.

Let me make this as blunt as I can.

THE. GUY. KNEW. ALL. OF. THIS. ALREADY!!!

In other words, he had the knowledge you don't. He understood scale degrees and intervals.

He had the knowledge, and was outright refusing to apply it.

What do we call that besides laziness?

I don't have to know anything about music or playing an instrument to know that you don't have to know everything about the instrument to start learning. If you think that's the case then you're pushing many people away from feeling like they can learn an instrument.

Just from googling I found many different sources that said learning scale shapes is important for guitars and can help with learning notes. Just because the guy knows all of that from the piano, doesn't mean he knows if it transfers the same to guitar especially since it seems that the guitar has many points that you can play the same things. So it's not lazy of him to ask something to gain some knowledge even though it's contrary to how you think people should learn. As a teacher you should be more open to different processes and not make it seem as if there's only one way to do something.
 

Azure Sage

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Connected my phone to my car for music for my drive home from work but it cut off on me as I was driving. :( instead of pulling over to fix it, I just tried putting the radio on instead (ew random songs out of my control!) And I got 1 and a half songs in before a very long commercial break that lasted the entire rest of my drive. :ananger: every other station I tried was just static or more commercials. It was a very unhappy drive home.
 

Dizzi

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Connected my phone to my car for music for my drive home from work but it cut off on me as I was driving. :( instead of pulling over to fix it, I just tried putting the radio on instead (ew random songs out of my control!) And I got 1 and a half songs in before a very long commercial break that lasted the entire rest of my drive. :ananger: every other station I tried was just static or more commercials. It was a very unhappy drive home.
oh my CD went wack the other and im like uhhh!!!!
 

Mellow Ezlo

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"Hello, I am away from the office until July 25th, 2022. Please be patient as I respond to your email in the order at which it arrived in my inbox once I return."

For context, I'm trying to get my field experience registration sorted out so that I can begin student teaching this semester. I'm not concerned about missing out since there are still 10 spots remaining, but I already had to wait a long time for a response from a different department so it's a little annoying. It's especially annoying that, through the entire secondary education department, there is only one person who is able to respond to my particular inquiry.
 

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