Was Ganondorf "chosen" or Not

[Zemen]

For those who use Ganondorf in Twilight Princess as evidence for saying he's chosen, no, because when Link returns, it's after Link opened the Door of Time and Ganondorf had gotten the ToP. So simply put, Ganondorf stole the Triforce of Power, it was not given to him.

Where is your proof/quote/evidence for this? It is pretty clear in the cut-scene shown in TP that Ganondorf is surprised to find out he has the ToP. He clearly tries to fight his way out of his restraints, kills one of the 4 sages and is then stabbed which obviously was painful for him. He stays dead for a moment, then his hand glows with the ToP and he awakens. He stands there staring for a second then starts to laugh because, IMO, he realizes that he has exactly what he was trying to get and didn't know it until just then. The whole reason he was being put up for an execution is because he was trying to steal the Triforce, so how could you think that he already had the ToP? Miyamoto, himself implies that he is up for execution for trying to enter the ToT.

Miyamoto said that When Link told Zelda of his adventure (in OoT), they let Ganondorf be and then one day, Ganondorf did something terrible and was sentenced to death for it. Link would have known if Ganondorf had the ToP and he would have told the Royal Family who would have captured Ganondorf on the spot, but Miyamoto said that they let him be until he tried to do something terrible. It's clear that Link was sent back before the Triforce was touched. If he wasn't sent back to before that time, then it defeats the whole purpose of going back in time, because everything should play out how it normally would have.

 

[MrMosley]

Where is your proof/quote/evidence for this? It is pretty clear in the cut-scene shown in TP that Ganondorf is surprised to find out he has the ToP. He clearly tries to fight his way out of his restraints, kills one of the 4 sages and is then stabbed which obviously was painful for him. He stays dead for a moment, then his hand glows with the ToP and he awakens. He stands there staring for a second then starts to laugh because, IMO, he realizes that he has exactly what he was trying to get and didn't know it until just then. The whole reason he was being put up for an execution is because he was trying to steal the Triforce, so how could you think that he already had the ToP? Miyamoto, himself implies that he is up for execution for trying to enter the ToT.

But this doesn't explain how he suddenly had the ToP. Zemen, even you know that the Triforce can only split after a person of unbalanced heart touches it. The only time this was documented to have happened was when Ganondorf did in OoT. It makes more sense to say that Link was sent back after he pulled the MS out, and after Ganondorf had entered the SR. He didn't have to know he had the ToP. Obviously he didn't as he was surprised to see it activate within him at his moment of death. This explains more towards the story of TP, and leaves the whole ending scene of OoT unexplained. I think its a pretty fair trade myself.

 

[Zemen]

But this doesn't explain how he suddenly had the ToP. Zemen, even you know that the Triforce can only split after a person of unbalanced heart touches it. The only time this was documented to have happened was when Ganondorf did in OoT. It makes more sense to say that Link was sent back after he pulled the MS out, and after Ganondorf had entered the SR. He didn't have to know he had the ToP. Obviously he didn't as he was surprised to see it activate within him at his moment of death. This explains more towards the story of TP, and leaves the whole ending scene of OoT unexplained. I think its a pretty fair trade myself.

I really don't see how this defeats my argument..

You just said yourself that you agree with me that he doesn't know he has the ToP. If he doesn't know he has it then he didn't steal it which means the only way he got it was by being chosen by the ToP.

 

[MrMosley]

I really don't see how this defeats my argument..

You just said yourself that you agree with me that he doesn't know he has the ToP. If he doesn't know he has it then he didn't steal it which means the only way he got it was by being chosen by the ToP.

No not exactly. He touched it and wished on it after entering the SR, right? So that means he got his wish, not that he knew he had the ToP. He knew he had his wish granted, which is all he really wanted. That's all anyone wanted in the beginning.

I agree that the theory of him suddenly getting the ToP in TP is somewhat solid, and was actually my theory in the beginning. But to me, now, it makes more sense that he made his wish, and got the ToP without ever knowing until it finally activated within him, which was at the time of his death, when it really needed to show its power.

The only time the Triforce ever chose a bearer was when Ganondorf touched it in OoT. That's when the piece he desired most, the ToP, went within him. The other two had to go somewhere, so they chose Link and Zelda. The Triforce has never actually split up on its own and chose three separate beings for no reason. The only cause that has ever been stated for its split is by an unbalanced heart touching it.

 

[Skull_Kid]

No not exactly. He touched it and wished on it after entering the SR, right? So that means he got his wish, not that he knew he had the ToP. He knew he had his wish granted, which is all he really wanted. That's all anyone wanted in the beginning.

I agree that the theory of him suddenly getting the ToP in TP is somewhat solid, and was actually my theory in the beginning. But to me, now, it makes more sense that he made his wish, and got the ToP without ever knowing until it finally activated within him, which was at the time of his death, when it really needed to show its power.

The only time the Triforce ever chose a bearer was when Ganondorf touched it in OoT. That's when the piece he desired most, the ToP, went within him. The other two had to go somewhere, so they chose Link and Zelda. The Triforce has never actually split up on its own and chose three separate beings for no reason. The only cause that has ever been stated for its split is by an unbalanced heart touching it.

DL01, buddy, pal... you are forgetting one little important detail: Ganondorf never touched the Triforce on TP's side of the timeline, because Zelda sent Link to warn everyone before he even had the chance to do so, nor was the door to the Sacred Realm opened

 

[MrMosley]

DL01, buddy, pal... you are forgetting one little important detail: Ganondorf never touched the Triforce on TP's side of the timeline, because Zelda sent Link to warn everyone before he even had the chance to do so, nor was the door to the Sacred Realm opened

This is what we have been discussing really. Actually last night I spent about an hour in the SB or longer trying to argue the point.

I know people believe that he never touched the Triforce, but you have to look at the fact that when you say that, you are leaving important questions unanswered. If we say he touched it, answers all of these questions:

A.)Ganondorf having the ToP in TP,
B.)Link having the Triforce symbol on his hand at the end of OoT
C.)Link to have it in TP (passed on to the next hero).
D.)Explains the Door of Time being opened at the end of OoT
E.)Explains that the events of the AT played out EXACTLY as they did in OoT (proven in WW).

Now if we just say that "Oh, Link was sent back BEFORE he pulled the MS out, BEFORE he gathered all three Spiritual Stones" all because of that ending garden scene which really is a lot less important than explaining key plot points in TP, then you have:

A.) Unexplained Ganondorf having the Triforce of Power
B.) Unexplained Door of Time being open at the end of OoT.
C.) AT would have never existed if Link was sent back before he pulled the MS out. And no, I don't mean never existed on the CT. We know it didn't. I mean never existed PERIOD. We know it did exist by looking at WW.

Let me explain that (C) a little bit. Okay so for Link to go forward in time, he has to pull the MS out. For him to pull the MS out, he has to gather the three spiritual stones. For him to gather the stones and pull the MS out, he opens the way to the SR, Ganondorf gets in, touches the Triforce. Ok, if Link was sent back before he pulled the MS out, before he gathered the stones, the events on the AT would have never existed. We know they exist though by playing WW.

The adventures of Child Link in OoT are all part of the AT. The AT is solidified, NOT when Link is sent back, but when he sleeps seven years. Now if the events of the CT shifted to Link never pulling the MS out, never gathering the stones, then the AT would have nothing at all. WW wouldn't make sense to exist at all.

 

[Zemen]

I fail to see how if Link was sent back to before he pulled the MS that has to mean the AT would never exist. No matter what time he was sent back to, the events of the future of OoT happened. No matter what time Zelda sent Link back to, she would remain wherever she is. If Link was sent back to a time after he pulled the MS and after the ToT was open, that defeats the purpose of him going back. Everything would play out exactly how it played out and we know that it doesn't because otherwise the CT wouldn't exist.

So on the flip side, if Link was sent back to a time after the MS was pulled, then the CT could not exist because everything would play out the same. The whole point of him being sent back was to stop Ganondorf from going into the SR which would be moot if he were sent back to a time when the doors were already open.

WW would still happen regardless of what time Link was sent back to. I really don't understand your reasoning against that...

 

[MrMosley]

I fail to see how if Link was sent back to before he pulled the MS that has to mean the AT would never exist. No matter what time he was sent back to, the events of the future of OoT happened.

I really don't know how I can make it any clearer, but I will try to. The AT is based off of what happened in OoT during the CT. Had Link not pulled the MS out in the past, he could have never been sealed away for seven years. Had he not been sealed away for seven years, he definitely wouldn't have done anything in the future portion of OoT. Thus, the AT would not exist. I'm not saying that things that happened after Link was sent back mess with the AT, just that if he never pulled the MS out, the AT wouldn't exist because the events of Child Link's entire OoT adventure are a part of the AT. That's about as clear as I can make it out.

So on the flip side, if Link was sent back to a time after the MS was pulled, then the CT could not exist because everything would play out the same. The whole point of him being sent back was to stop Ganondorf from going into the SR which would be moot if he were sent back to a time when the doors were already open.

No not exactly. Ganondorf entering the SR, wishing upon the Triforce, and leaving did not take seven years. For all we know, it could have taken five minutes. What took seven years was for Ganondorf to take over Hyrule. I mean think about it, if Ganondorf could automatically take over Hyrule within five minutes after gaining the ToP, he would have taken over the whole world in seven years. But he didn't. We don't have anything proving or disproving how long it took him to accomplish this task, but one could assume that it took a good part of the seven year period.

And are you also saying that the Door of Time was not open at the end of OoT? If so, I can post a vid showing that it was when Link was sent back. But for now, I'll just tell you that the door was open to save some space.

 

[Zemen]

You still don't get it. No matter when Link was sent back in time, the future happened in an alternate reality. Based on your thinking, the AT would never happen anyway and WW and PH should not exist and there should be a linear timeline with TP after OoT. The whole point of him being sent back in time is to change the future, which he does and it leads to TP, but that doesn't erase the future that once was. That future lives on into WW. You're telling me that the only way WW can still exist is if Link is sent back and everything plays out exactly how it did. If that was the case, then the CT would not exist and that would defeat the purpose of being sent back in time anyway.

No matter how you look at your logic, it would have to mean that one of the timelines does not exist, and yet they both exist which leads me to believe that your logic is wrong.

Miyamoto said that Link was sent back, told Zelda his adventure and they left Ganondorf alone and didn't capture him until he tried to do something terrible. Most likely, the terrible thing he tried to do was steal the Triforce, which Link warned Zelda about (that was the whole point of him being sent in the past). Miyamoto says that Ganondorf was sentenced to death when he TRIED to do something terrible. This heavily implies that he didn't succeed in doing whatever it is he was going to do, which was, IMO, getting his hands on the Triforce.

 

[MrMosley]

You still don't get it. No matter when Link was sent back in time, the future happened in an alternate reality. Based on your thinking, the AT would never happen anyway and WW and PH should not exist and there should be a linear timeline with TP after OoT. The whole point of him being sent back in time is to change the future, which he does and it leads to TP, but that doesn't erase the future that once was. That future lives on into WW. You're telling me that the only way WW can still exist is if Link is sent back and everything plays out exactly how it did. If that was the case, then the CT would not exist and that would defeat the purpose of being sent back in time anyway.

I know what your trying to argue here. Your trying to say that even if Link is sent back to a time when he didn't pull out the MS that it wouldn't affect anything on the AT, as far as Ganon being defeated and WW and all that, because it is a different reality. What you fail to realize is that this different reality cannot exist unless it branched off of a previous, single reality. The event of Link pulling the MS out occurs on this single reality. The alternate reality of the AT contains events of Adult Link in OoT, but is not solidified until Link is sent back and does not exist if he never goes through time during the single reality, or the singular timeline that was in place before the split.

I'll try to draw it out (CL for Child Link, AL for Adult Link):

My Logic
............................/AL defeats Ganon--AL sent back through time-----WW
--CL pulls out the MS..............................................................\CL informs Zelda

Your Logic
......................................................./AL defeats Ganon--AL sent back through time--WW
/CL informs Zelda--X--CL pulls out the MS.............................................................\
\<-------------<---------------<---------<---------<--------------<----------------/

See? Link pulling out the MS has to happen on both sides because it occurs at a time before the timeline was even split. Under your logic, Link traveling back would take place before he could pull out the MS, and before he could go through time to defeat Ganon.

Link pulling out the MS on the CT doesn't hurt the events of the CT or the games that follow, such as TP. It only helps them to explain how Ganondorf has the ToP in TP. Link still could have went and told Zelda, and kept Ganondorf from doing something terrible. As a matter of fact, that terrible thing could have been taking over Hyrule as well, which is exactly what was prevented. He didn't take over Hyrule, but he still ended up with the ToP.

 

[Veely]

No I dont think ganondorf was chosen as the person with the youtube said he stole the power. And why would you give it to a guy is screwed up in the head! But he never seems to die! cause every time they have a new game he shows up! so the theft is a pain to kill a million times! And Yet so fun to! =)

 

[Veely]

Me to! Ganaondorf stole it! He Stinks just because of the that!

 

[Zarom]

I don't think he was chosen. He just happen to have steal the Triforce of Power. :ganondorf:

 

[Clucluclu]

Yes he is chosen. If Zelda or Link were to touch the Triforce, the ToP would go to Ganondorf because out of all the inhabitants of Hyrule, Ganondorf is the most hungry for power.

 

[Zarom]

But the ToP isn't about the one who is the most hungry for power! It would go to one who HAS power, not to one wimp guy :ganondorf: who wants to have power!