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Wars

Locke

Hegemon
Site Staff
Joined
Nov 24, 2009
Location
Redmond, Washington
One thing the Hyrule Historia didn't bother to explain is the many wars that are only briefly mentioned in a few games. Wars of relevance here are:
  • The "prolonged wars" mentioned in TP
  • The interloper conflict described in TP
  • The "fierce war" mentioned in OoT
  • The unification war mentioned in OoT (if different from the fierce war)
  • The bloodshed mentioned in the LttP manual
TP said:
[The Sheikah] worked in secret, so they lived in a lonely, forgotten place. But I heard that tribe dwindled in the prolonged wars...
Did these wars happen before and/or after OoT? Probably before, since we only see one real Sheikah in OoT (though we also only see one Sheikah in SS and that's before the royal family existed). So does this include the fierce/unification war?

OoT said:
Some time ago, before the King of Hyrule unified this country, there was a fierce war in our world. One day, to escape from the fires of the war, a Hylian mother and her baby boy entered this forbidden forest.
This is rather ambiguous... we don't know if the King unified the country as a result of said war or just sometime after it. So are there one or two wars here? And, again, [is this one/are these two] of the prolonged wars?

LttP Manual said:
That yearning for the Triforce soon turned to lust for power, which in turn led to the spilling of blood. Soon the only motive left among those searching for the Triforce was pure greed.
This description seems to resonate with TP's depiction of the interloper conflict. I believe that the interlopers are related to the Sheikah, so it also falls in line with the prolonged wars. Therefore I think the "prolonged wars" refers to this description in the LttP manual.

The manual then goes on to describe Ganondorf discovering the Triforce, which leads up to the Imprisoning War (not listed above because that is certainly a separate event). But this seems to have some major contradictions with OoT. The depiction in the manual can't be OoT itself, nor can it take place before OoT, nor after...

So, how do you reconcile these various vague references to wars?
 

ihateghirahim

The Fierce Deity
Joined
Jan 16, 2013
Location
Inside the Moon
My reckoning

1. The Sheikah likely participated every war mentioned. They fought to protect the Royal family, so it is logical they went to war with them. I like to image some of the people Kakariko village are Sheikah in disguise, for that would explain how they are mentioned as a whole tribe going to war.

2.It seems logical to assume the king unified Hyrule in a massive war. Logic suggests he was fighting to destroy others who sought to rule Hyrule. He therefore defeated his rivals and founded the kingdom of Hyrule.

3.According to Hyrule Hystoria, The Imprisonong war was part of the Fallen Timeline. It would occur after the Interlopers are banished. Ganondorf killed Link in the final battle of OoT (What a stupid concept). He then got all three pieces of the Triforce and then built his army in the Sacred Realm. Then the Imprisoning war happened and Ganondorf would have been sealed by the Seven Wise Men.
 

Cfrock

Keep it strong
Joined
Mar 17, 2012
Location
Liverpool, England
I gonna focus on the unification/"fierce war" part of this for now.

At first, I always just took the quote to mean there was a war which resulted in a unified Hyrule, but after thinking about the political situation in Ocarina of Time I'm not so sure anymore. Besides the Hylians, we have 5 major races: Gorons, Zoras, Sheikah, Gerudo and Kokiri. The Kokiri seem to be negligable to the scenario and we know the Sheikah are loyal servants of the Hylian Royal Family (most likely because the earliest known Sheikah was " a being sent forth by the goddess" to protect Hylia's spirit maiden and the tribe probably continued protecting the maiden's bloodline) so let's look at the other 3.

The Zora's have their own Royal Family, which implies they have a kingdom. The Goron leader describes the Hylian King as his "sworn brother", which implies a friendly diplomatic relationship. The Gerudo King is seen swearing fealty to the Hylian King, on bended knee and everything. The prescene of other Kings makes it pretty clear that there are other kingdoms besides Hyrule and it makes unification a lot clearer to me. It's like The United Kingdom. It is made up of 4 nations but they are all united into one whole. The individual parts even have their own governing bodies. This seems very similar to Hyrule during OoT, with there being a Hylian, Goron, Zora and Gerudo kingdom all united under the banner of Hyrule.

The friendliness between the Hylians and the Gorons and Zoras makes it hard for me to see them at war only 10 years earlier. I mean, the Gorons are a proud race and I find it a bit out of character for Darunia to name the man who fought his people to submission as his "sworn brother". I also think it would be out of character for Ganondorf to not use the opportunity of Hyrule being at war to set his plans in motion earlier. No, the civility seen in OoT and the fact that Ganondorf joins this union via diplomatic means makes me think it is more likely that Hyrule's unification was a peaceful, diplomatic arrangement that came after the "fierce war" described, not as a direct result of it.

That leaves us with the question of the "fierce war" and who the enemy was. We know the Hylians were involved because why else would a Hylian mother be forced to flee the fires of war? But if they weren't at war with the Gorons, the Zoras or the Gerudo then who? Well, this may be a radical possibility, but why not the Interlopers? Hyrule wasn't unified, so a case can be made that the races of the world weren't friends with each other at the time and, due to their post-unification relationships, it seems unlikely they were enemies. The only races we can definately tie together at that point are the Hylians and the Sheikah.

I have heard the war the Deku Tree Sprout mentions refered to as the Hylrulean Civil War (I'm unsure if there are any confirmed canonical sources which use that term, though). If we take that to be the case, a war fought between the Hylians and the Sheikah (though not the entire tribe, since Impa is still trusted during Zelda's infancy) would fit the criteria for a civil war. It also fits the theory that the Interlopers are a rogue band of Sheikah who betrayed the Hylians.

Now, I'm aware that is all speculation but our understanding of the big picture is pretty vague as it is so I don't feel silly posting it. This next bit, however, is a bit silly. Bear with me. The Interlopers have access to magic, dark magic no less. There are only three people we see using dark magic in OoT: Ganondorf and his surrogate mothers (whatever we take that to mean), Koume & Kotake. Could it be that the Sheikah betrayers learnt the witches magic and used it in their war? Could Ganondorf be an Interloper who did not succumb in war? Perhaps he was protected by the witches somehow. Perhaps he did not join them, choosing to wait for a better chance to access the Sacred Realm.

That last bit is just a bit of an odd thought that entered my head while thinking about all this, so I'm not going to say 'I believe Ganondorf is an Interloper'. It's just something to maybe chew over. But I think a case could be made that the Interloper conflict is perhaps the "fierce war" described in OoT. Maybe.
 

ihateghirahim

The Fierce Deity
Joined
Jan 16, 2013
Location
Inside the Moon
Who really knows?

We don't know who fought who in the civil war. It's likely the Gerudo, a human faction, or the interlopers were the warring faction. We don't know who fought who. It is also noteworthy being a king doesn't mean you don't answer to a higher king. This has precedent in real life. I like to think the Human king as the high king. If he is just king of the humans, a civil war amongst the humans is a likely possibility.
 

Locke

Hegemon
Site Staff
Joined
Nov 24, 2009
Location
Redmond, Washington
I have heard the war the Deku Tree Sprout mentions refered to as the Hylrulean Civil War (I'm unsure if there are any confirmed canonical sources which use that term, though).
I think both that and the "Unification War" are fan names. "Unification War" obviously comes from the King unifying the kingdom. I don't know if there's some obscure source for the "Civil War". I think that's also a fan name based on the assumption that the kingdom originally encompassed all of the races in question and the war re-united them...

There are only three people we see using dark magic in OoT
Does the Shadow Temple count?

As for the interlopers, yeah I guess that could work. I had misgivings about timespans but I resolved them while composing this. One would have to assume that a lot of time passed between Ganondorf's execution and his appearance before Zant. The former is implied to happen shortly after OoT, while the latter must happen shortly before TP. "A hundred and something years" [plus 15] might be long enough for the twili to become what we see in TP. I do think it's worth looking deeper into the theory surrounding Sheikah-interloper connections if pursuing this. The Shadow Temple may be of interest. Otherwise there's not much reason to believe that the interloper conflict described in TP must be this individual war, and not some previous war.
 

ihateghirahim

The Fierce Deity
Joined
Jan 16, 2013
Location
Inside the Moon
actually. . .

The child timeline assumes Link never beat Ganondorf in Ocarina of Time. He was arrested by the Sages after he got the Triforce, and that led to the events of TP.
 
Joined
Aug 1, 2012
Location
MI, USA
The child timeline assumes Link never beat Ganondorf in Ocarina of Time. He was arrested by the Sages after he got the Triforce, and that led to the events of TP.

Close but not actually correct. The Child Timeline isn't simply assuming Link never beats Ganondorf (that would actually be a more accurate description of the Downfall Timeline). In the Child Timeline, Link warns Zelda and the Royal Family about Ganondorf's intentions and he is arrested several years later. This changes the entire course of history for Hyrule because in this Timeline the Hero of Time never really appeared. Link was still present for a time but he never accomplished the feats that would make him a legend in the Adult Timeline. Ganondorf wasn't arrested after attaining the Triforce and we cannot be sure who he was arrested by, only that he was tried by the sages. In the Child Timeline, Ganondorf received the ToP from a "divine prank" during the sages attempt to execute him and strangely enough he never seeks the full Triforce in this timeline.
 

ihateghirahim

The Fierce Deity
Joined
Jan 16, 2013
Location
Inside the Moon
Not so fast.

The "divine prank" is that he, someone so evil, had the supreme power of the Triforce and they didn't know about it. It's not like it magically appeared on his hand.
 
Joined
Aug 1, 2012
Location
MI, USA
The "divine prank" is that he, someone so evil, had the supreme power of the Triforce and they didn't know about it. It's not like it magically appeared on his hand.

But he didn't hold the supreme power of the Triforce, he only had the Triforce of Power. We see at the end of OoT that Link has the ToC when he is sent back in time. From this we can conclude that the Triforce is no longer whole, yet we cannot say with certainty when the other pieces were bestowed upon their respective vessels. We cannot say for sure when he obtained the ToP in the Child Timeline since there is a huge gap between OoT and TP(MM makes no reference to the Triforce splitting). The first time we see Ganondorf with the ToP is during his execution.

As stated in HH on Pg. 113 "In the Arbiter’s Grounds, Ganondorf was executed by six sages. However, Ganondorf was elected to not die by the Triforce of Power, and killed one of the sages." It is this event where the ToP visibly appears on Ganondorf's hand that he(IMO) first discovers that he is the carrier of the ToP.

Another except from the same page of HH that may support this notion goes "Carrying the proof of the Triforce of Power, Ganondorf acquired evil magic. This time axis’s Ganondorf, who thought the Triforce of the Sacred Realm was untouched, concluded there must have been some disturbance since Link returned home with the Triforce of Courage". I would say that following this quote that even if the ToP was being carried by Ganondorf, that he was unaware and unable to use it's power. As far as he knew the Triforce was still whole and intact in the Sacred Realm. The "divine prank" isn't simply that an evil entity such as Ganondorf obtained part of the Triforce; it is that as the sages were about to rid Hyrule of an evil tyrant, yet he was chosen by the gods to live. The sages were devastated that the Goddesses they worshiped would spare such an evil man from execution.
 

ihateghirahim

The Fierce Deity
Joined
Jan 16, 2013
Location
Inside the Moon
Hold on a minute.

I've never seen any evidence to suggest the Triforce is operating at the will of the goddesses. In OoT they create it and leave. I know it talks, I guess, in A link to the Past, but the goddesses have never been shown to control it. It would appear, from what we see, that they are not conscious beings. At least they aren't conscious when they are separated. Perhaps they need to be together to form a consciousness.
 

felipe970421

Mardek Innanu El-Enkidu
Joined
Feb 21, 2012
Location
Colombia
But he didn't hold the supreme power of the Triforce, he only had the Triforce of Power. We see at the end of OoT that Link has the ToC when he is sent back in time. From this we can conclude that the Triforce is no longer whole, yet we cannot say with certainty when the other pieces were bestowed upon their respective vessels. We cannot say for sure when he obtained the ToP in the Child Timeline since there is a huge gap between OoT and TP(MM makes no reference to the Triforce splitting). The first time we see Ganondorf with the ToP is during his execution.

As stated in HH on Pg. 113 "In the Arbiter’s Grounds, Ganondorf was executed by six sages. However, Ganondorf was elected to not die by the Triforce of Power, and killed one of the sages." It is this event where the ToP visibly appears on Ganondorf's hand that he(IMO) first discovers that he is the carrier of the ToP.

Another except from the same page of HH that may support this notion goes "Carrying the proof of the Triforce of Power, Ganondorf acquired evil magic. This time axis’s Ganondorf, who thought the Triforce of the Sacred Realm was untouched, concluded there must have been some disturbance since Link returned home with the Triforce of Courage". I would say that following this quote that even if the ToP was being carried by Ganondorf, that he was unaware and unable to use it's power. As far as he knew the Triforce was still whole and intact in the Sacred Realm. The "divine prank" isn't simply that an evil entity such as Ganondorf obtained part of the Triforce; it is that as the sages were about to rid Hyrule of an evil tyrant, yet he was chosen by the gods to live. The sages were devastated that the Goddesses they worshiped would spare such an evil man from execution.

I'm having abit of a hard time with this, are you saying that when Link entered the child timeline he took the ToC from that timeline, making the other 2 pieces go to Ganondorf and Zelda (this would also cause the split of the ToC in the adult timeline)
 
Joined
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Location
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That's what I feel like Hyrule Historia is implying by the line: "This time axis’s Ganondorf, who thought the Triforce of the Sacred Realm was untouched, concluded there must have been some disturbance since Link returned home with the Triforce of Courage". To me this indicates that once Link entered the Child Timeline after being sent back by Zelda, the Triforce recognized him as the carrier of the ToC and thus split. What I am uncertain about is when the pieces found their way to Ganondorf and Zelda. It may have been immediate or it may have been delayed. Since we have no solid info on when the pieces of the Triforce found their vessels we can't say for sure when each person gained their piece until we see otherwise. In Ganondorf's case we only know for sure that he has the ToP midway through his execution. He could have had it before and been unaware of it as well.
 
T

Thecap'n

Guest
it makes more sense to me that as soon as zelda sent him back is when the split occurred. kindof like a big snap, if that makes any sense..o_O
and during the execution, it merely presented itself to keep him from dying. saying that it had been there all along and even he didnt know. supressed maybe..idk
 
Joined
Apr 6, 2011
There is one era of the official timeline known as the Era of Chaos. According to Hyrule Historia, it was a time, shortly after the end of the era of the Sky, when the people of Hyrule grew greedy and lustful for the Triforce. There are details here and there as to what happened but at the end, Rauru built the Temple of Time around the Master Sword and sealed the Triforce into the Sacred Realm. To ensure the safety of the Sacred Realm, he gave three keys to the tribe of water, fire, and forest. After that, the Royal Family was founded and the Era of Prosperity began. The Unification War happened a few years before Ocarina of Time.

This is GlitterBerri's Translation of the Japanese Hyrule Historia (since the American one is not out yet :dry:):

Era: Game:
Many Years Later –
•Hyrule, Kingdom of the Gods
The world that the 3 goddesses created and that the goddess, Hylia protected became known as Hyrule. Those who share the roots of Goddess Hylia were known as Hylians and they held mysterious power.
Peace continued through the land for a long time, but with a new era, a wave of chaos descended upon the land.
Era: Game:
The Era of Chaos Ocarina of Time
•The Battle for the Sacred Realm
The almighty power of folklore was lusted over by many, many people and there was a never ending struggle over the Triforce.
The Sage of Light, Rauru, constructed the Temple of Time around the only entrance to the Sacred Realm which housed the Triforce. The Sacred Realm was sealed with the Master Sword, along with the ability to pass through time. The Master Sword’s pedestal was closed off behind the Door of Time and three sacred stones acted as keys, which were guarded by the trusted people of the forest, the people of water, and the people of fire.
The Triforce was enshrined in the Temple of Light and Rauru was isolated from the world inside the Sacred Realm to continue to protect the power of the gods.
Era: Game:
The Era of Prosperity –
•Hyrule Kingdom’s Establishment
Those who inherited the blood of the goddess, Hylia, who was reborn into Zelda, established Hyrule. They built a castle in the centre of Hyrule, where the Temple of Time rested and watched over the Sacred Realm and the Triforce.
Era: Game:
Many Years Later –
In the Royal Family, many people were born with a special power that existed deep within the bloodline and the queen would often be named Zelda after the historical legend.
Sidebar

•Temple of Time
The only entrance to the Temple of Light in the Sacred Realm. Though it bears the same name as the temple that stood in the desert in ancient times, the Temple of Time constructed by Rauru is thought to be located where the Sealed Temple once stood.
•Crest of the Royal Family

Because Goddess Hylia’s crest was in the shape of a bird, and people once rode giant birds in Skyloft, the Royal Family’s crest is a combination of the Triforce and a bird.

As for Ganon and the Imprisoning War, I personally think the Imprisoning War was basically the last major war in a long line of many wars over the Triforce. It happened after Ganondorf defeated Link and managed to re-unite the Triforce once again, which makes sense considering that the Triforce was whole in ALttP.
 

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