Twilight Princess Vs Skyward Sword

[Random Person]

Twilight Princess, no contest.

Series Relativity:
Twilight Princess was a direct sequel to Ocarina of Time (technically MM) bringing back the old Hyrule but in a mature manner. Link is about the same age as he was in the adult timeline but more responsible. (Kind of interesting considering this is the child timeline) Our hero is taking on the responsibilities left behind of the Hero of Time with a twist. Redone music, themes and overall feel of OoT with slight variations. Basically, this game is a continuation of Ocarina of Time. Imo, rupee!

Skyward Swordd was a direct prequel to... well.. everything, but I generally look at Ocarina of Time. It explains the Master Sword, reason for Ganon's returnability, the reason to the clues of civilization in the sky left by MC and TP, and the beginning of the royal family (also, the beginning of the Zelda series theme song, but that's not technically lore in the rest of the games). While doing so, the game creates an almost completely new feel of a land of old. New lore is introduced to the series. This is fine to a series game, but not as a prequel. While a sequel can either introduce new or continue old, prequels are known to answer questions and that is something SS didn't do alot of. It does answer questions, but by creating more questions than answers, the story would've been better as a sequel, rather than a prequel. Imo, rupoor.

TP wins category.

Story:
TP is a very cinematically well done literature experience. (Say anything like that and it'll sound good). Most of the Zelda game tells its story like a book, but TP decided to do so like a movie. All characters are serious, removing the traditional "happy feel" of Zelda. Depending on who you are, you could welcome or hate this change, but by itself it doesn't do anything wrong. The character development is through the roof with not only Midna, but Link and many side characters. Though cliche, the plot twists are initiated well and the over story makes it easy for one to relate to Link's experience... despite being a pointy eared guy in a skirt. Imo, rupee!

SS tells some parts like a movie, but for the most part it keeps the Zelda story book telling tradition. I'd say that it tries to mix the two, but I feel that there is a massive amount more of book than movie. The story holds a Personal relationship bewteen two teens, something the audience can get involved in easily. With Groose, Ghirahim and creepy counter girl, character development is clearly shown. Engaging history with a nice tale to it. Imo, rupee!

This area is a tie, but I Personally prefer serious movie over lighthearted storybook... but that's just me.

Gameplay:
TP brings back the tradtional method of OoT but increases swordplay techniques and item variety, while deleting magic usage. WAY too easy for a Zelda game. However, the easiness is cushioned by creativity of item usage as well as gameplay scenerios. The point of gameplay is to have fun and if your audience is still engaged despite the lack of difficulty, you can scoot by. Some parts, mainly the beginning, feel tedious and unecessary. People say it lacks exploration, I disagree but... you know... who cares what I think? Game is very linear which can be taken as an insult but correlating it with the story (which as I said is being played like a movie) excuses this if you appreciate the story enough. Imo, rupee.

SS brings in a more new style of gameplay as everyhting is centered around WM+. Swordplay is now focused more on skill than looks. Exploration goes WAY down as the game is more of a "follow directions" type game. Outside lands are played more like dungeons and dungeons.. are still played like dungeons BUT have slightly less linearity to them. Again, too easy though not as easy as TP. SS is also not as innovative as TP. I'd say the gap between TP and SS's innovation is much bigger than the gap between their easiness. Imo, rupee.

Tied category

Graphics:

TP is fine for what it is. Dark, crisp, tries to be more realistic and traditional.

SS is fine for what it is. Light, smooth, tries to be like a fantasy book. However, I've noticed some blur moments in this game.

Tied category.

Music:

TP reuses music from OoT while incorporating its own. It's very atmospheric and can easily leave one humming the tune, but the tune is more complicated than the four notes Zelda fans are used to so one may not know how. Again, the purpose here was to bring back nostalgia while at the same time sounding more real and a bit distinguished. A choir was used at times where we were used to normal music, theming well with the games atmosphere. Where the music fails is the wolf howling. While it was excellent of the game to bring back old songs and a new way of playing, that howling is grating on people's ears and the whole point of music is to be enjoyed by the ears. Imo, rupee.

SS music is atmospheric and well composed, however, lacking memorable moments. The music compositions that were REALLY good were only played for a short time and were not repeated many times throughout the game. The Sky Theme, while very well done, began to feel out of place as it prepared you for an adventure everytime you were on your bird when the sky is essentially Link's backyard. (Unlike the Sea whose music is similar but no matter how many times you go out it's so wide and has so many secrets that it always feels like an adventure). At points, the orchestrated felt out of place. Whereas TP's choir chest opening noise felt atmospheric and evolved, SS opening chest orchestrated music felt like overkill. Imo, rupoor.

TP wins category



Okay... so maybe it wasn't as hands down as I thought, but nonetheless, TP wins. While the music category was a factor, I feel the series factor is really what brings my view of SS down. Despite SS's good things, when I incorporate the fact that its supposed to be a prequel and isn't prequeling, that outways the other factors (which are worse or just as good as TP's categories). TP was a sequel and sequeled in a very traditional way. SS was a prequel and in ALL catregories, felt like a sequel. (Or rather, something that would've been better as a sequel). I think TP is better and I Personally like TP more, thus my vote is going to TP.

But... you know... imo.

 

[JuicieJ]

Skyward Swordd was a direct prequel to... well.. everything, but I generally look at Ocarina of Time. It explains the Master Sword, reason for Ganon's returnability, the reason to the clues of civilization in the sky left by MC and TP, and the beginning of the royal family (also, the beginning of the Zelda series theme song, but that's not technically lore in the rest of the games). While doing so, the game creates an almost completely new feel of a land of old. New lore is introduced to the series. This is fine to a series game, but not as a prequel. While a sequel can either introduce new or continue old, prequels are known to answer questions and that is something SS didn't do alot of. It does answer questions, but by creating more questions than answers, the story would've been better as a sequel, rather than a prequel. Imo, rupoor.

So I guess A Link to the Past, Ocarina of Time, and The Minish Cap are all bad in series relativity, as well? They were all prequels and barely explained anything. OoT even had two huge plot holes in its ending with its intention of being the Imprisoning War. It's not something you can pin on SS alone, especially considering it had more detail than its predecessors, even if only a little.

Gameplay:

TP brings back the tradtional method of OoT but increases swordplay techniques and item variety, while deleting magic usage. WAY too easy for a Zelda game. However, the easiness is cushioned by creativity of item usage as well as gameplay scenerios. The point of gameplay is to have fun and if your audience is still engaged despite the lack of difficulty, you can scoot by. Some parts, mainly the beginning, feel tedious and unecessary. People say it lacks exploration, I disagree but... you know... who cares what I think? Game is very linear which can be taken as an insult but correlating it with the story (which as I said is being played like a movie) excuses this if you appreciate the story enough. Imo, rupee.

SS brings in a more new style of gameplay as everyhting is centered around WM+. Swordplay is now focused more on skill than looks. Exploration goes WAY down as the game is more of a "follow directions" type game. Outside lands are played more like dungeons and dungeons.. are still played like dungeons BUT have slightly less linearity to them. Again, too easy though not as easy as TP. SS is also not as innovative as TP. I'd say the gap between TP and SS's innovation is much bigger than the gap between their easiness. Imo, rupee.

Items in Twilight Princess are used creatively in the dungeons they are found in, sure, but almost all of them are immediately dropped afterward, whereas Skyward Sword's items are used efficiently from the moment they're found to the end of the game (with the exception of the Whip). Skyward Sword also has more exploration than Twilight Princess does. While a linear game, there are many more cleverly-hidden objects to find and many isolated moments of non-linearity, meaning lots of paying attention to Link's surrounding was required to find things, something Zelda had been missing ever since The Wind Waker. The vast majority of Twilight Princess's "hidden" objects are child's play to find/get to, and nearly every moment in the game is a point A to point B affair. Both are intensely linear games, but Twilight Princess basically guides you by the hand the entire time, while Skyward Sword points you in a direction and has you handle it from there. If there's any Zelda game that's a "follow directions" kind of game, it's TP.

Skyward Sword is also much more innovative than Twilight Princess. It's not even a contest. Everything in TP is pretty straightforward. There aren't any brain-teasing puzzles, and there are very few crafty foes. Even the bosses are beyond standard and easier than normal fights in the game. It's pretty embarrassing that the puzzles in TP's dungeons are at the same level as the puzzles in SS's surface portions. What am I saying with this? I'm saying that TP's biggest challenges in the dungeons are at the same level SS's warm-up puzzles -- the one's that build up to the dungeons, which feature some of the toughest and unique puzzles the series has seen so far.

SS's combat also trumps TP's, despite not having all of the Hidden Skills. Many enemies in SS require thought and quick reaction skills to be defeated, unlike enemies that require little to no effort whatsoever in TP. Let's compare the Bokoblins between the two games. TP's charge up to Link with no defense whatsoever and take 2 to 3 hits depending on their color, and take off 1/4th of a heart. Hits that only require the push of a button. SS's require direction swings in order for Link's attacks to not be blocked. Even then, they'll sometimes manage to block multiple attacks. The most basic ones also take 4 hits to defeat and take off 1 whole heart. So, tell me, which of these is more innovative? Obviously it's SS's. Where TP is beyond basic and boring, SS is engaging and entertaining.

There are many more things I could go over, but it would be the size of a novel if I did. The point is if you prefer TP's gameplay over SS's, that's perfectly fine, but saying it's more innovative and superior to SS's is highly misguided.

Graphics:

TP is fine for what it is. Dark, crisp, tries to be more realistic and traditional.

SS is fine for what it is. Light, smooth, tries to be like a fantasy book. However, I've noticed some blur moments in this game.

If TP was trying to be realistic in its art style, it failed miserably. The colors are incredibly plain, consisting of dark greens and browns galore. Character's faces also resemble that of anime, not real life. It's also not crisp. The graphics are very blurry due to them being on the GCN.

SS's "blur moments" are due to the impressionist art style. Things in the background were designed too look as if they were painted into the scenery with pastels. They are Wii graphics, so they're not ultra crisp, but they're sharper than TP's for sure.

I don't think either style is necessarily superior to the other in terms of quality, but SS's definitely fits Zelda more than TP's. Dark and dull isn't the way to go for a fantasy series. Bright and colorful is.

Music:

TP reuses music from OoT while incorporating its own. It's very atmospheric and can easily leave one humming the tune, but the tune is more complicated than the four notes Zelda fans are used to so one may not know how. Again, the purpose here was to bring back nostalgia while at the same time sounding more real and a bit distinguished. A choir was used at times where we were used to normal music, theming well with the games atmosphere. Where the music fails is the wolf howling. While it was excellent of the game to bring back old songs and a new way of playing, that howling is grating on people's ears and the whole point of music is to be enjoyed by the ears. Imo, rupee.

SS music is atmospheric and well composed, however, lacking memorable moments. The music compositions that were REALLY good were only played for a short time and were not repeated many times throughout the game. The Sky Theme, while very well done, began to feel out of place as it prepared you for an adventure everytime you were on your bird when the sky is essentially Link's backyard. (Unlike the Sea whose music is similar but no matter how many times you go out it's so wide and has so many secrets that it always feels like an adventure). At points, the orchestrated felt out of place. Whereas TP's choir chest opening noise felt atmospheric and evolved, SS opening chest orchestrated music felt like overkill. Imo, rupoor.

TP's soundtrack mostly consists of somber, melancholy songs. There's not much variety to it at all. Don't get me wrong, the music isn't bad, but there are very few moments where it tries to create a balance in styles. Skyward Sword's music was incredibly varied and was designed to capture the emotion of the current environment and amplify it it to create a more authentic experience. As I once said in another thread, Skyward Sword always knew what kind of song to play at the right time. It knew when to make its music catchy, when to make it atmospheric, when to make it eerie, when to make it epic, and when to make it simply gorgeous. Too many people look at it like, "Oh, the songs aren't as catchy as they were in the past, therefore they're not as good". That's totally missing the point. Past Zelda games basically tried to focus on being nothing but simple, catchy tunes, and there was never much emotion to them as a result. They fit the surrounding areas and were quality tracks to listen to, but they were never great until Spirit Tracks and Skyward Sword. It's a weak argument, and it's really gotten on my nerves over the course of time.

 

[thezeldahq]

When breaking down the facts in the most unbiased way possible, Skyward Swords wins.

But then why do I feel like I had so much, perhaps even more, fun with Twilight Princess?

 

[JuicieJ]

When breaking down the facts in the most unbiased way possible, Skyward Swords wins.

But then why do I feel like I had so much, perhaps even more, fun with Twilight Princess?

Personal preferences. I consider TP to be one of the weakest Zeldas, but it's also one of my favorites. Liking something and considering something better don't have to coincide with each other. It's entirely possible to like something that's bad and hate something that's good.

 

[Igos du Ikana]

That's chocked up to personal preference, just like there is a difference to a "favorite" and the "best". I've said this before, but, I think SS was more story focused then most of the other Zelda's(though not all of them). I agree with both Random and JuicieJ on the music, in which I found it tobe the perfect fit, yet less likeable.

 

[DarkestLink]

When breaking down the facts in the most unbiased way possible, Skyward Swords wins.

But then why do I feel like I had so much, perhaps even more, fun with Twilight Princess?

I sorta have the opposite perspective. Logically, I find myself seeing as Twilight Princess as an easily superior game. And yet, I find myself unable to choose a favorite between them.

But looking at the games, Twilight Princess is easily more polished and developed. There's an easy reason for this too:

Skyward Sword was a new game covering new ground. It didn't really know what it was doing. It was inexperienced despite being the newest game.

In contrast, Twilight Princess was simply building off what had been established by OoT, MM, and tWW. It had references to look back on. It brought everything to its peak. Combat was at its finest. It easily beat its predecessors. It had loads of sidequests considering how large the main quest was. The chests of rupees were well hidden unlike the ones in Wind Waker which were just left in the open. They took the Savage Labyrinth and made it into something that was actually savage. The enemies were smarter and didn't kill themselves for you like they did in Wind Waker.

Twilight Princess's story was so focused. It was prevalent nearly everywhere except for that small section around the Snowpeak/Temple of Time. Skyward Sword was basically a dungeon hop with little story in between until the very end where it's just dumped on us.

Twilight Princess was a game that knew it was doing. Skyward Sword was like Ocarina of Time. It was treading new water, it didn't know what it was doing, but, luckily, it managed to do well despite this. Nevertheless, it's not well polished or the best it could be. That would be impossible. There's nothing for it to work off of. For now, it's the building block for the next game to improve off of.

 

[JuicieJ]

I sorta have the opposite perspective. Logically, I find myself seeing as Twilight Princess as an easily superior game. And yet, I find myself unable to choose a favorite between them.

But looking at the games, Twilight Princess is easily more polished and developed. There's an easy reason for this too:

Skyward Sword was a new game covering new ground. It didn't really know what it was doing. It was inexperienced despite being the newest game.

In contrast, Twilight Princess was simply building off what had been established by OoT, MM, and tWW. It had references to look back on. It brought everything to its peak. Combat was at its finest. It easily beat its predecessors. It had loads of sidequests considering how large the main quest was. The chests of rupees were well hidden unlike the ones in Wind Waker which were just left in the open. They took the Savage Labyrinth and made it into something that was actually savage. The enemies were smarter and didn't kill themselves for you like they did in Wind Waker.

Twilight Princess's story was so focused. It was prevalent nearly everywhere except for that small section around the Snowpeak/Temple of Time. Skyward Sword was basically a dungeon hop with little story in between until the very end where it's just dumped on us.

Twilight Princess was a game that knew it was doing. Skyward Sword was like Ocarina of Time. It was treading new water, it didn't know what it was doing, but, luckily, it managed to do well despite this. Nevertheless, it's not well polished or the best it could be. That would be impossible. There's nothing for it to work off of. For now, it's the building block for the next game to improve off of.

Actually, Twilight Princess didn't know what it was doing half the time. A lot of its design is stinted, awkward, and repetitive. The story is anything but focused after the first half, as it drops everything that was important and hurriedly picks it all back up again at the very end. Skyward Sword made a few of the same mistakes, but they weren't nearly as bad, nor were they as pervasive. It was a much tighter and refined experience as compared to most other modern titles, especially Twilight Princess.

 

[PhantomTriforce]

Actually, Twilight Princess didn't know what it was doing half the time. A lot of its design is stinted, awkward, and repetitive. The story is anything but focused after the first half, as it drops everything that was important and hurriedly picks it all back up again at the very end. Skyward Sword made a few of the same mistakes, but they weren't nearly as bad, nor were they as pervasive. It was a much tighter and refined experience as compared to most other modern titles, especially Twilight Princess.

You do know that DarkestLink is entitled to his opinion, right? He thought Twilight Princess was a more polished game, and you can't just tell him otherwise because of what you think. And just for the record, I agree with him rather than you. And just because I think so doesn't make me wrong.

 

[JuicieJ]

You do know that DarkestLink is entitled to his opinion, right? He thought Twilight Princess was a more polished game, and you can't just tell him otherwise because of what you think. And just for the record, I agree with him rather than you. And just because I think so doesn't make me wrong.

You do know I'm entitled to express my own opinions, right? Especially since I could go on a rant about why what I said was accurate? The forums are open for debate, and if you think I have no right calling people out, I'm afraid you're sadly mistaken.

 

[DarkestLink]

Actually, Twilight Princess didn't know what it was doing half the time. A lot of its design is stinted, awkward, and repetitive.

Not gonna argue on this because there isn't much for me to work with.

The story is anything but focused after the first half, as it drops everything that was important and hurriedly picks it all back up again at the very end.

OK, so you acknowledge the first half (Begining-Abriter's Grounds) had story focus. But let's examine the second half. Snowpeak Ruins had little story focus (basically just closes up the Ralis storyline) and the Temple of Time had none. I acknowledged this. However, we get a huge focus on the Ilia storyline and Ooccoo's storyline right after. Then we get back to Midna's storyline and Zant. Then we reach the finale with Ganondorf. What you might call "the second half of the game" I view as two dungeons without story.

Skyward Sword made a few of the same mistakes, but they weren't nearly as bad, nor were they as pervasive. It was a much tighter and refined experience as compared to most other modern titles, especially Twilight Princess.

Again, not much to comment on since you're using the broad term "mistakes" rather than going to specifics. Also, what do you mean by the term "tighter"?

 

[Igos du Ikana]

Again, not much to comment on since you're using the broad term "mistakes" rather than going to specifics. Also, what do you mean by the term "tighter"?

I think he meant the most well-balanced gameplay. I've noticed that in some newer games, publishers will work on one main area to get that part to work really well, and the rest of the game falls flat.

 

[JuicieJ]

Not gonna argue on this because there isn't much for me to work with.

Twilight Princess Talk - Blogs - Dungeon Gaming Network

OK, so you acknowledge the first half (Begining-Abriter's Grounds) had story focus. But let's examine the second half. Snowpeak Ruins had little story focus (basically just closes up the Ralis storyline) and the Temple of Time had none. I acknowledged this. However, we get a huge focus on the Ilia storyline and Ooccoo's storyline right after. Then we get back to Midna's storyline and Zant. Then we reach the finale with Ganondorf. What you might call "the second half of the game" I view as two dungeons without story.

Again, all that stuff was hurriedly picked up after being dropped. After Ilia was found, she wasn't important again until we suddenly learned that her memory was important to getting to the City in the Sky. Ganondorf was mentioned at the first climax and never touched on again until it was time to confront him. It's an issue of bad pacing.

Again, not much to comment on since you're using the broad term "mistakes" rather than going to specifics. Also, what do you mean by the term "tighter"?

If I had gone into specifics, I would have created a post that would have taken up half a page.

By tighter, I mean more focused and engaging. Twilight Princess has a lot of pacing issues in the gameplay, as well, specifically with the transition between Twilight Hyrule and Light Hyrule (not to mention the Twilight portions become insignificant in the second half). Where Twilight Princess drops things about the first half, Skyward Sword adds new things, like the Silent Realms. I'm not saying Twilight Princess is a bad game -- it's a very good game -- I'm just saying it has more issues than most others in the series. I'm also not saying that Skyward Sword is flawless. It has a few pacing issues of its own, especially near the end with the Song of the Hero quest, but overall it's much less of a problem than in Twilight Princess.

 

[DarkestLink]

Twilight Princess Talk - Blogs - Dungeon Gaming Network

This would bring us to a different discussion. It sounds like an interesting read, but not exactly an argument.

Again, all that stuff was hurriedly picked up after being dropped. After Ilia was found, she wasn't important again until we suddenly learned that her memory was important to getting to the City in the Sky. Ganondorf was mentioned at the first climax and never touched on again until it was time to confront him. It's an issue of bad pacing.

That's how stories work. They are like webs, not bricks, they filter in and out, crisscrossing each other and connecting, rather than lumps that are fairly separated, such as Majora's Mask Four Worlds, which feel more like "episodes" than one unified story. Most of them finish towards the end. For example, there's Ilia and there's Ralis.

Ralis wasn't core to the story. He was brought in around dungeon three and leaves the story around dungeon five. He himself wasn't too important to the story. He was just part of the bigger picture: the Zoras who suffered because of the war. The Zoras themselves were mainly there for impact, to see how much damage had been caused.

Ilia was a core character in Link's life. She didn't contribute so much to the story itself as much as she did to Link's character. The entire first half of the game was focused on Link's goals, Link's life, and Link's character with the world and its problems slightly in the background. The second half is mainly focused on the worlds problem and stopping the threat. Link's personal life took a background.

Ilia was with us from the beginning. She was part of the reason Link went into the Twilight in the first place. The urgency to find her was made clear after the second area of the game. Finally we find her. We help her with her problems. And, yes, she goes to the background. Subtly mentioned, but not focused on, for three dungeons. Then we returns to the finale with everyone else to slowly wrap the story up. From what you're saying, ideally, it seems you would have rather had her wrapped up around the fourth or fifth dungeon. But then what? It'd be over. This core story character would be lost. Forgotten. She wouldn't tie in to the story. She'd feel like a separate sidequest.

Each need to their time and place and need to be well woven and integrated together, otherwise they don't feel like one story. They feel like episodes. They can't all be told at once. That is just unrealistic even by normal story standards. By Zelda story standards, it's just laughable to suggest.

By tighter, I mean more focused and engaging.

"Engaging" another broad opinionated word. But focused? I couldn't even tell what the plot was for the first two dungeons. Saving Zelda wasn't the plot. It was the goal to get the player into the dungeon. Honestly, I'm not even sure if I knew the plot after that either. I just had a vague idea of stopping Ghirahim and that was it.

Twilight Princess has a lot of pacing issues in the gameplay, as well, specifically with the transition between Twilight Hyrule and Light Hyrule

I'm afraid I don't quite follow you.

(not to mention the Twilight portions become insignificant in the second half).

Alright, this is more specific. Well, Twilight Princess could only afford so many Twilight Zones before they ran out of room. Not to mention, they also needed the time to tell different parts of the stories. Having a Twilight Zone before each and every dungeon would have been repetitive, cut several dungeons from the game, and would have lost purpose. The purpose was to show player the poor state Hyrule was in, introduce the wolf mechanics, and get players accustomed with the map area.

Where Twilight Princess drops things about the first half, Skyward Sword adds new things, like the Silent Realms.

So my question is...why did it matter? In one game, it appears at the beginning. At the other game, it shows up at the end. It also depends on how would you define "dropped". Were the Twilight Zones themselves dropped? Yes. What about the wolf? No. The wolf is still used. It even has half a dungeon dedicated to it. It's used to find snowpeak, is useful in snowpeak, was albeit dropped for the Temple of Time, and used again slightly in City in the Sky, Palace of Twilight, and Hyrule Castle. Considering the transformations, including the world, are little more than items, I'm actually surprised that it continued throughout most sections of the game.

I'm also not saying that Skyward Sword is flawless. It has a few pacing issues of its own, especially near the end with the Song of the Hero quest,

Wait, really? What problems did you have with that exactly?

 

[JuicieJ]

This would bring us to a different discussion. It sounds like an interesting read, but not exactly an argument.

It details things you were asking for. Otherwise I wouldn't linked it.

That's how stories work. They are like webs, not bricks, they filter in and out, crisscrossing each other and connecting, rather than lumps that are fairly separated, such as Majora's Mask Four Worlds, which feel more like "episodes" than one unified story. Most of them finish towards the end. For example, there's Ilia and there's Ralis.

Ralis wasn't core to the story. He was brought in around dungeon three and leaves the story around dungeon five. He himself wasn't too important to the story. He was just part of the bigger picture: the Zoras who suffered because of the war. The Zoras themselves were mainly there for impact, to see how much damage had been caused.

Ilia was a core character in Link's life. She didn't contribute so much to the story itself as much as she did to Link's character. The entire first half of the game was focused on Link's goals, Link's life, and Link's character with the world and its problems slightly in the background. The second half is mainly focused on the worlds problem and stopping the threat. Link's personal life took a background.

Ilia was with us from the beginning. She was part of the reason Link went into the Twilight in the first place. The urgency to find her was made clear after the second area of the game. Finally we find her. We help her with her problems. And, yes, she goes to the background. Subtly mentioned, but not focused on, for three dungeons. Then we returns to the finale with everyone else to slowly wrap the story up. From what you're saying, ideally, it seems you would have rather had her wrapped up around the fourth or fifth dungeon. But then what? It'd be over. This core story character would be lost. Forgotten. She wouldn't tie in to the story. She'd feel like a separate sidequest.

Each need to their time and place and need to be well woven and integrated together, otherwise they don't feel like one story. They feel like episodes. They can't all be told at once. That is just unrealistic even by normal story standards. By Zelda story standards, it's just laughable to suggest.

There's a difference between telling everything at once and completely dropping everything, only to pick it up at the last second. Any kind of flow with the story in the first half was completely broken due to everyone that was important in the first half being forgotten about until it was time to wrap up the story. Conclusions wound up feeling shoehorned in rather than being there for a reason as a result.

"Engaging" another broad opinionated word. But focused? I couldn't even tell what the plot was for the first two dungeons. Saving Zelda wasn't the plot. It was the goal to get the player into the dungeon. Honestly, I'm not even sure if I knew the plot after that either. I just had a vague idea of stopping Ghirahim and that was it.

You missed the entire point, then. The plot started out simple with Link just trying to find Zelda, only to have Ghirahim show up. More and more events kept unfolding that created a mystery as to what was going on -- Impa appearing, the Imprisoned battles, etc. -- until everything was revealed when Link finally met up with Zelda in the past. Then everything involving the Triforce and Demise happened in a magnificent conclusion. The difference between TP and SS's stories is that TP's stumbles to an end, whereas SS's builds on itself until the ending, slowly revealing more and more about the plot basically the entire time. There's a kind of awkward transition with Ghirahim finding the drawings in the Fire Sanctuary, and there could have been more detail about the backstory, but there's a much greater sense of direction and focus in SS's story as compared to TP's. It's hardly even a debatable issue.

I'm afraid I don't quite follow you.

Read the blog.

Alright, this is more specific. Well, Twilight Princess could only afford so many Twilight Zones before they ran out of room. Not to mention, they also needed the time to tell different parts of the stories. Having a Twilight Zone before each and every dungeon would have been repetitive, cut several dungeons from the game, and would have lost purpose. The purpose was to show player the poor state Hyrule was in, introduce the wolf mechanics, and get players accustomed with the map area.

There are ways it could have been integrated in along the way without getting repetitive. It wouldn't have to be before every dungeon, and the objective of finding the Tears of Light could either have been added onto or completely altered in order to mix up the gameplay. Beyond that, however, my point was that it was odd to have something be such a focus of the game in the first half, only for it to be completely forgotten in the second.

So my question is...why did it matter? In one game, it appears at the beginning. At the other game, it shows up at the end. It also depends on how would you define "dropped". Were the Twilight Zones themselves dropped? Yes. What about the wolf? No. The wolf is still used. It even has half a dungeon dedicated to it. It's used to find snowpeak, is useful in snowpeak, was albeit dropped for the Temple of Time, and used again slightly in City in the Sky, Palace of Twilight, and Hyrule Castle. Considering the transformations, including the world, are little more than items, I'm actually surprised that it continued throughout most sections of the game.

Again, the Twilight was such an important feature at first, but then it was dropped. Losing a central feature of a game is kind of jarring in terms of design. Having something added onto the gameplay -- like the Silent Realms -- allows for things to not get stale and for the game to build on itself. You could argue that being able to turn into Wolf Link at will is adding something onto the gameplay, but it's a severely underused feature. Plus, Wolf Link's gameplay was never that much different from normal Link's in the first place.

Wait, really? What problems did you have with that exactly?

It was a moment of unnecessary padding. The only purpose it serves is to artificially lengthen the game's adventure. I did enjoy the individual portions themselves, but as a whole, it didn't need to be there. We could have just learned the song from Levias and had the same effect on the game.

 

[DarkestLink]

It details things you were asking for. Otherwise I wouldn't linked it.

I'm sorry, but this feels more like a "I CBA to debate this right now" answer to me. Especially with how vague your original post was to begin with.

Actually, Twilight Princess didn't know what it was doing half the time. A lot of its design is stinted, awkward, and repetitive.

There's clearly a lot of things you hate about this game. For the life of me, I can't figure out what was "awkward". Stinted seems strange to hear on a game as large as Twilight Princess. Repetitive feels ironic considering how upset you were that they didn't keep repeating the Twilight Zones.

There's a difference between telling everything at once and completely dropping everything,

1) You can't tell everything at once. That's impossible.

2) Completely dropping everything would imply that both

A) There was no story at all

and

Stories were dropped without conclusion.

A only happened during the Temple of Time and B never happened.

only to pick it up at the last second.

^ Which contradicts the idea of them dropping it completely.

Any kind of flow with the story in the first half was completely broken due to everyone that was important in the first half being forgotten about until it was time to wrap up the story. Conclusions wound up feeling shoehorned in rather than being there for a reason as a result.

1) The kids story was pretty much over. Malo and Talo settled down and Colin grew a pair. The End.

2) We were reminded before every dungeon that Ilia's memory was bad and that Renaldo was working on it.

3) Stories NEED to be dropped so other stories can be told. You can't tell it all at once. Every story needs their place.

You missed the entire point, then. The plot started out simple with Link just trying to find Zelda,

That's not a plot. That's a goal. It was put there for the same reason saving Peach is prevalent in most Mario games: So players have a reason to do the dungeons.

For future references in this debate, I am going to post the definition of "Story Plot" below.

A literary term, a plot is all the events in a story particularly rendered toward the achievement of some particular artistic or emotional effect or general theme. ...

only to have Ghirahim show up.

Because...?

I don't know about you, but I had no idea what was with this guy until the near end.

More and more events kept unfolding that created a mystery as to what was going on

Actually...that's exactly my argument. Right there. I had no idea what the events were that were taking place. The plot was going on behind the scenes and I had no idea what was going on. Apparently, neither did you. If you don't know the events of the story, you don't know the plot.

until everything was revealed when Link finally met up with Zelda in the past.

Which happened at the end, with one dungeon left to go. Until then, you didn't understand the events of the story and, therefore, did not know the plot. So basically, we didn't know the plot until the very end.

Then everything involving the Triforce and Demise happened in a magnificent conclusion. The difference between TP and SS's stories is that TP's stumbles to an end, whereas SS's builds on itself until the ending, slowly revealing more and more about the plot basically the entire time.

You had no idea what was going on until the end. It was a huge mystery and remained a mystery. It didn't answer anything. It just gave you more questions at times, but mostly remained stationary.

Twilight Princess had a pretty clear plot from the near beginning and it kept on revealing more and more, even throwing foreshadowing at certain areas. It was able to reveal itself without keeping you in the dark beforehand.

There are ways it could have been integrated in along the way without getting repetitive. It wouldn't have to be before every dungeon,

So basically before most dungeons but not present at times? Feels...strangely inconsistent for no reason.

and the objective of finding the Tears of Light could either have been added onto or completely altered in order to mix up the gameplay.

By all means feel free to share ideas. The only one I could see happening is maybe finding them as a human, but there's not much point into it...

Beyond that, however, my point was that it was odd to have something be such a focus of the game in the first half, only for it to be completely forgotten in the second.

Because it wasn't needed. I doubt there was anyone who still couldn't control the wolf after the third section. The story and situations these Twilight Sections presented had been covered. We were familiar with the land. And the Gerudo Desert/Snowpeak simply weren't big and diverse enough for it.

Again, the Twilight was such an important feature at first, but then it was dropped. Losing a central feature of a game is kind of jarring in terms of design.

The Twilight Sections added nothing to the gameplay. Wolf Link did. And he didn't get dropped. The Twilight Sections were little more than small fun tutorials. We didn't need them after the third section. Adding them in would have taken up valuable space and would be pointless.

It was a moment of unnecessary padding.

So basically anything that isn't a dungeon is padding? How do you figure? The Song of Hero Quest had much more story importance than the dungeons themselves did.

The only purpose it serves is to artificially lengthen the game's adventure.

This is bad because...?

Honestly, you could have taken two of the dungeons out and been fine, but then the game would be short and would get old too quickly.