Spoiler Twilight Princess in the Timeline

[HeroofAges]

Ok, so if you don't subscribe to the "Split Timeline Theory" then this does not apply to you. If you do then keep reading. I have seen a lot of versions of the timeline and one thing bothers me. In most versions, Twilight Princess takes place in the "child timeline". The commom reason seems to be that durring the cinematic at the Arbiter's Grounds Ganondorf is sentanced to death because he tries to conquer Hyrule. Thus this must be because Link, a child at the end of OoT, tells the king of the evil King's plans leading to his arrest. But I think there are some compelling reasons to conclude that this game could take place in the "adult timeline".

1- Durring the cinematic I mentioned above, Ganondorf survives his execution because of the power of the Triforce of Power. In the "child timeline" Ganondorf never got the Triforce so how could he use it to save himself. And to those who say that once he got it in the future he got it through all time periods, this is rediculous. If this was true then Link and Zelda would have also had their pieces in the past and OoT would have been a much different game.

2- Several very distinct references are made throughout TP which point to its placement in the "adult timeline".
First, at the beginning you get the Hero's Clothes which it strongly implies were once worn by the Link in OoT. But if this was the "child timeline", there was Hero of Time. If Ganondorf was executed before he could conquer Hyrule, then the events of OoT never happened and Link was just Link if you catch my meaning. The only one who would have known that Link was anything but a 'forest boy' was Zelda. Furthermore, Link in OoT didn't recieve his Hero's Clothes until he was an adult. So they would never have existed in the "child timeline".
Second, when you recieve the Zora's Tunic in TP Rutela says her husband, King Zora, made them for a great hero. this didn't happen until Link in OoT was an adult. So if this happened in the "child timeline", these could not possibly have been made for the Hero of Time.
And Third, we see the Biggoron Sword on display in Hyrule castle in TP. This sword was not completed and used by the Hero of Time until he was an adult. Again, this item would not exist in the "child timeline".
Oh and Fourth, the fishing hole in TP has a picture of the master fisherman from OoT holding the Hylian Loach caught by Link, which didn't happen until he was an adult.

Finaly, I think that certain geographical shifts can be best place in the "adult timeline". Most notably, after the "adult ending" of OoT the castle was left in ruins and would have had to been moved. This explains why the Temple of Time is no where near Castle Town in TP.

That is all for now. I want to eventually put up a timeline of my own but not until I finish examining the little nuances of the other games so that little hints and references don't get past me. :triforce:

 

[angelkid]

2- Several very distinct references are made throughout TP which point to its placement in the "adult time line".
First, at the beginning you get the Hero's Clothes which it strongly implies were once worn by the Link in OoT. But if this was the "child time line", there was Hero of Time. If Ganondorf was executed before he could conquer Hyrule, then the events of OoT never happened and Link was just Link if you catch my meaning. The only one who would have known that Link was anything but a 'forest boy' was Zelda. Furthermore, Link in OoT didn't receive his Hero's Clothes until he was an adult. So they would never have existed in the "child time line".

That's a good point. If the clothes worn were infarct the clothes worn by child Link, they would be referred to as 'forest tunic' or 'kikori tunic'

Second, when you receive the Zora's Tunic in TP Rutela says her husband, King Zora, made them for a great hero. this didn't happen until Link in OoT was an adult. So if this happened in the "child time line", these could not possibly have been made for the Hero of Time.

Another really good point. However, the only similarity between the Zora tunic between these games is that they are both blue. I know this is just design, but I believe that If the producers were trying to implement a hint, they would at least have made the tunics look more similar. Also, In OoT i do not believe the tunic is made for Link as they are actually sold in the shop.

And Third, we see the Biggoron Sword on display in Hyrule castle in TP. This sword was not completed and used by the Hero of Time until he was an adult. Again, this item would not exist in the "child time line".

Really? where?

Oh and Fourth, the fishing hole in TP has a picture of the master fisherman from OoT holding the Hylian Loach caught by Link, which didn't happen until he was an adult.

Good point, however, this could have easily been caught by someone else. Nothing actually states that this fish was caught by Link. Also, if I remember correctly, there were quite a few pictures of people who had caught hylian loaches so this could easily have been anyone who caught this particular loach.

Finaly, I think that certain geographical shifts can be best place in the "adult time line". Most notably, after the "adult ending" of OoT the castle was left in ruins and would have had to been moved. This explains why the Temple of Time is no where near Castle Town in TP. :triforce:

This is again a very good point. I always wondered why the two temples of time were so far away. It has to be said you are a very good observationist.

 

[HeroofAges]

Thanks..

As to the dissimilarities in the appearance of the Zora Tunic, I believe this is a simple example of the designers showing off. That is why Ganondorf looks so different from his OoT incarnation and small changes keep getting made to equipment and even Link's clothes. The Biggoron Sword I can't recall the exact location.. I'll go back and try to find it again. And the fisherman .. well that could be true however most game designers love sneaking little easter eggs into games. I don't think they would put that picture there unless it was THE Loach caught by OoT Link.

Here is a youtube vid showing the sword http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYQFSI_yVu4

 

[Oathkeeper95]

egh that sword could have easily been the goron sword that looks exactly the same as the biggoran sword or biggoron could have simply made it for the royal family.

 

[Oathkeeper95]

besides, the OTHER reason that tp is believed to be in the child timeline is because ganondorf was sealed in the end of the adult timeline and according to WW ganondorf eventualy weaked out and since no hero of time appeared the goddesses flooded hyrule

 

[HeroofAges]

besides, the OTHER reason that tp is believed to be in the child timeline is because ganondorf was sealed in the end of the adult timeline and according to WW ganondorf eventualy weaked out and since no hero of time appeared the goddesses flooded hyrule

But couldn't that just mean that WW took place in the child timeline? Link left to Termina in MM. It never said he came back. So if Ganon attacked the Hero of Time would not appear. Or it could happen before or after TP. Or, keep in mind that few of the BS for the Zelda games mesh perfectly. What we get in manuals and cinematics is only the story as it is remembered by the current inhabitants of Hyrule. Over time stories get muddled and exagerated. I am not saying that I couldn't be wrong, only that one who objectively has to admit that I COULD be right.

And all the other things I point out point to the adult timeline. Why would there be so many refernces to the adult ending of OoT but almost nothing that points to the child ending except a single interpretation of a cinematic.

And like I said about the photo, easter eggs like thes are usualy in a game for a reason. In this case, it would be a piece of Hyrule hostory on display. Even if it was the Goron sword/knife it wasn't implemented until the future storyline where it started out in the hands of that carpenter guy... no Future Link, no hero, no reason to display the sword.

Remember that game designers frequently make small changes / retcons with games in a series as their story unfolds. And there could be one or several games worth of missing story between existing instalments.

 

[Zemen]

1- Durring the cinematic I mentioned above, Ganondorf survives his execution because of the power of the Triforce of Power. In the "child timeline" Ganondorf never got the Triforce so how could he use it to save himself. And to those who say that once he got it in the future he got it through all time periods, this is rediculous. If this was true then Link and Zelda would have also had their pieces in the past and OoT would have been a much different game.

This is completely my opinion, but I find it to be extremely plausible so here it goes.

I believe that Ganondorf doesn't even know how he got the ToP. It's obvious that he struggled during the execution and he was even dead for a couple seconds. He then, came back to life (as seen by the power of the ToP) and starts laughing. The nature of the laugh leads me to believe that he is laughing at the fact that he had what he was looking for, and what the sages were trying to stop him from getting, all along and never knew it. I think the point is that we aren't supposed to know how he got the ToP and the point is that Ganondorf doesn't even know how he got the ToP, himself.

2- Several very distinct references are made throughout TP which point to its placement in the "adult timeline".
First, at the beginning you get the Hero's Clothes which it strongly implies were once worn by the Link in OoT. But if this was the "child timeline", there was Hero of Time. If Ganondorf was executed before he could conquer Hyrule, then the events of OoT never happened and Link was just Link if you catch my meaning. The only one who would have known that Link was anything but a 'forest boy' was Zelda. Furthermore, Link in OoT didn't recieve his Hero's Clothes until he was an adult. So they would never have existed in the "child timeline".

But it doesn't say that the clothes were worn by the hero of time, it just says they were worn by a great hero and, if you recall, OoT!Link did still save the GDT, Zora's Domain and the Goron village all as a child which I believe would make him a hero in many people's eyes. He also saved an entire other dimension (Termina). And I would assume that these all powerful sages and the Goddesses would still know of what happened in OoT because they seem to be above the normal rules of time and space.

The point is, Based on the child part of OoT and the events of MM, Link was still a hero and TP never specifically calls them "hero of time" clothes. They are only referred to as the heroes clothes so it still works being on the child timeline.

Second, when you recieve the Zora's Tunic in TP Rutela says her husband, King Zora, made them for a great hero. this didn't happen until Link in OoT was an adult. So if this happened in the "child timeline", these could not possibly have been made for the Hero of Time.

The Zora tunic in OoT was in the shop. There is nothing in OoT that says that specific tunic was made for the hero of time. Also, kid Link saved Jabu Jabu which is their God of sorts. This would still make him a hero so even if the tunic was made for a great hero by the King Zora, kid Link was a hero to them for saving the king's daughter and saving Jabu Jabu, all while he was a kid, so this still works with TP being on the child timeline also.

And Third, we see the Biggoron Sword on display in Hyrule castle in TP. This sword was not completed and used by the Hero of Time until he was an adult. Again, this item would not exist in the "child timeline".

This seems like way more of an easter egg than an actual canonical addition to the game. Also, you are assuming that only one Biggoron sword was ever made. TP never states that the sword shown was the same sword used by the hero of time. That's just your own speculation.

Oh and Fourth, the fishing hole in TP has a picture of the master fisherman from OoT holding the Hylian Loach caught by Link, which didn't happen until he was an adult.

As stated earlier, you are just assuming that it's a fish caught by OoT!Link. There is nothing in TP saying that it's the very same fish. The fact that it's a picture of the master fisherman with the fish leads me to believe that it's the master fisherman who caught the fish...

Finaly, I think that certain geographical shifts can be best place in the "adult timeline". Most notably, after the "adult ending" of OoT the castle was left in ruins and would have had to been moved. This explains why the Temple of Time is no where near Castle Town in TP.

In most cases I don't find geography to be a big part of timeline placement. If they kept the map too much like OoT then the entire game would feel old. Of course they changed up the map. It's more for gameplay purposes so that the game feels new.



You make some interesting points but they can easily be explained and made to work perfectly for TP being on the CT. No offense, but most of your pieces of evidence are solely based on your own speculations, such as the picture of the fish being the same fish that OoT!Link caught. Many of the things you said are never once stated in TP. You just read too far into them.

Also, here is a quote by Aonuma.

–When does Twilight Princess take place?

Aonuma: In the world of Ocarina of Time, a hundred and something years later.

–And the Wind Waker?

Aonuma: The Wind Waker is parallel. In Ocarina of Time, Link flew seven years in time, he beat Ganon and went back to being a kid, remember? Twilight Princess takes place in the world of Ocarina of Time, a hundred and something years after the peace returned to kid Link’s time. In the last scene of Ocarina of Time, kids Link and Zelda have a little talk, and as a consequence of that talk, their relationship with Ganon takes a whole new direction. In the middle of this game [Twilight Princess], there’s a scene showing Ganon’s execution. Link and Zelda left him be and he then did something outrageous, so it was decided that he should be executed. That scene takes place several years after Ocarina of Time. Ganon was sent to another world and now he wants to obtain the power...

If it was hard to understand, he was basically saying that WW takes place 100 and something years after OoT and TP takes place 100 and something years after OoT parallel to that (which means on a different timeline).

One of the creators confirmed that TP is on the child timeline so no matter what you say and how much evidence you have, you're wrong. Sorry...

 

[HeroofAges]

Wow so forceful! Well I appreciate your obvious love for the lore. Just a few points.

Fist is this not a forum for speculation? As such my observations are as accurate as any. Next, there are two ways to get the Tunic in OoT. The first is to pay for it. The other is to free King Zora from the blue ice. If you don't already have it he gives it to you free. If you do have it you get a kiss.

Next it would depend on when you think Zelda sent Link back to . If he went back to AFTER the events of the three child temple, then Ganondorf had already seized the castle he just didn't have the Triforce yet. But since he isn't defeated until the future that means that he is going to show up with the ToP and bring chaos for seven years. Is it more likely that Link was sent to before Ganondorf ever came to Hyrule, and thus before the first three dungeons.

As I said before easter eggs like the sword and fish CAN be random but so few things in Zelda are truely random. Why so many referances to old Link and so few about young Link.

And even if we take that the Hero's Clothes do not necessarily refer to future Link, the clothes of young OoT Link could not possibly fit TP Link.

My last point is this. Do you forget that there have been several instances of Designers either misinforming or being mistaken about timeline related issues? Until a CANON GAME states the exact placement of a particular installment it IS open to discussion. Retcons happen my friend.

I might be wrong but it is also wrong to dismiss an idea purely because it doesn't fit your pre-concieved notions. Any idea based on evidence is at least possibly valid until definitively proven false. If it was one or two small easter eggs I might dismiss them but when the list gets to four or five you have to at least take note. If a game comes out which bridges the gap between MM and TP, and remember it never said theat the HoT returned from that... or an official Timeline is produced, I will continue to look for the little clues that others dismiss or overlook. Trust me I am a big boy. If I am proven wrong I will gladly admit it.

 

[knowlee]

Wow! I remember those things in TP, but I never actually sat down and thought about them. I always just assumed that it was just a game that happened in the "child timeline" of OoT. Now I'm beginning to wonder if that's true or not.

Oh, and on another note, where is that Biggoron Sword at in Hyrule Castle? I never really noticed that.

Oh, and on another another note, excellent research and attention to detail. I would've never noticed otherwise.

 

[Djinniofpower]

Wow. Sounds good to me, also I kinda want to mention something. It probably doesn't matter but, when you get the hero's bow in Tp they say it used to belong to a great hero. Link only got the bow as the adult I think. That's probably wrong but I just thought I might mention it.

 

[HeroofAges]

Wow! I remember those things in TP, but I never actually sat down and thought about them. I always just assumed that it was just a game that happened in the "child timeline" of OoT. Now I'm beginning to wonder if that's true or not.

Oh, and on another note, where is that Biggoron Sword at in Hyrule Castle? I never really noticed that.

Oh, and on another another note, excellent research and attention to detail. I would've never noticed otherwise.

I don't really remember the exact location of the sword but the vid I posted shows it.

Wow. Sounds good to me, also I kinda want to mention something. It probably doesn't matter but, when you get the hero's bow in Tp they say it used to belong to a great hero. Link only got the bow as the adult I think. That's probably wrong but I just thought I might mention it.

The only issue here is that while it does say it was the bow of a hero, it looks nothing like the fairy bow in Oot.. it could be a redesign but if so it was a drastic one.

 

[Zemen]

Wow so forceful! Well I appreciate your obvious love for the lore. Just a few points.

Fist is this not a forum for speculation? As such my observations are as accurate as any. Next, there are two ways to get the Tunic in OoT. The first is to pay for it. The other is to free King Zora from the blue ice. If you don't already have it he gives it to you free. If you do have it you get a kiss.

You're basically saying that the King Zora already had the tunic before Link saved him since Link gets it for saving him. This means that the tunic wasn't made for Link but the tunic was already made and given to Link which means the tunic in TP is different from the one in OoT.

Also, you mentioned that young Link's tunic wouldn't be able to fit TP Link. This is true, but if you recall, when young Link goes forward in time, in OoT, he automatically gets a bigger tunic rather than showing up in his small one. It's called magic, bro.

I can understand if the creators accidentally say that it goes on the wrong side of the timeline but the fact that they say that the execution of Ganondorf takes place after peace is brought to "young Link's" time makes it hard to believe they were misinformed. They go in to good detail about why it's on the CT.

You also mentioned that it depends on where you think young Link was sent back to. At the end, when he is sent back we see him walking towards Zelda in the royal garden while she is watching Ganondorf through the window. That particular scene happens AFTER you get the 3 spiritual stones so he IS sent back to a time that is after he gets the 3 spiritual stones.

You are reading way too much into tiny details. There is nothing that says it's the same biggoron sword and nothing that says that it's the same fish that adult Link caught. Those are all completely speculated things by you. Your entire argument is based on speculation where mine is based on in game facts and creator quotes.

 

[HeroofAges]

Again you assume that I'm taking a stab at you when this is not the case.. I have said I might be wrong but so far you haven't convinced me.. it isn't a knock on you but until I get a game or written timeline disputing my suspicions I will continue to operate under the belief that I MIGHT be right.. sorry friend.. I am not interested in entering into arguments.. You made your point and while I do agree that it makes sense i think.. as apparently do others responding to my post.. that it is far from definitive.

But I do think you deserve a more specific response so here goes..
question 1 about king Zora.. NO I am saying you are wrong that you only get the tunic from a shop.. maybe King Zora already had a tunic that just happened to fit our hero... or maybe the designers didn't see a need to make players wait three days while he 'made' the tunic as it was necessary to advance the story.. Either way yhis is not difinitive proof that I am wrong and is in fact speculation on your part since we are never told where the tunic came from.
As for question 2 about young link's tunic being 'magically' made bigger for him you are again, sadly, mistaken.. Rauru tells the reawakened Hero of Time that these are the clothes of the prophesized hero, paraphrased but acurate to the point.. in other words the hero's clothes and the kokiri tunic, while similar, are not the same thing.
Number 3, when was Link sent back to? Well I am afraid that saying that he definatly went back in time to see zelda watching Ganondorf thus after the three stones is speculation as well as inacurate. You have no way of knowing for sure what Zelda was doing when Link found her in the courtyard at the end.. she obviously liked that garden, and when you meet her durring the game in the courtyard you only have 1 spiritual stone, the Kokiri Emerald, aboy bearing a green light as it were.
As to the last.. well the devil is all to often in the details my friend. Why have a theories page if not to investigate small details and speculations.. Technically, until we get a written, set in stone timeline, all timeline talk is speculative.. your argument wouldn't hold up in court my friend..

And another thing, just because someone has an idea that differs from your own does not make tham wrong... for every piece of evidence one side produces to proove their case the other has something equally compelling.. one can debate without being argumentative or downputting.
Cheers!!!

 

[zzRICHzz]

i wanna say that you have some really really good points... and i remember when i played WW for the first time and they were talking about how Link left Hyrule, i always assumed that they meant when Young Link goes to Termina...

i like all your speculations HoA...

but as far as at what point in time is Link sent back to??

i personally believe that it is after he opens the door of time... because when he is sent back, Zelda sends him back to the pedestal of time where he replaces the sword and Navi flys out the window. What that means is he would have had to have walked out of the temple and he wouldn't have been able to get out if the door was closed... it would make sense in support of your theory cuz then he would still be acknowledged for what he did for Zora's Domain, The Gorons, and The GDT... and i dont really think the fisherman thing was more than a simple easteregg

other than that though i gotta say good job dude!!! i'll make sure to keep an eye out for more of your posts

 

[HeroofAges]

The only flaw here is that technically zelda the sage could open the door of time for him to let him out.... and in the end cinematic we see an exact reproduction of Link and Zelda's first meeting leading to the belief that Zelda is watching Ganondorf through the window and Link only has the Kokiri Emerald... If he was sent back to after he opened the door of time then he would be too late to stop ganon from entering the Sacred Realm right behind him and claiming the Triforce of power.. basically Ganongdorf would reemerge from the Sacred Realm a short time later and mop the floor with our young hero... unless Link is in Termina when Ganondorf returns thus leading the Goddesses to flood the land.. but back to point, if Link arrived after the Door of Time was opened then Ganondorf would have been right behind him and warning the king would have been futile.. instead of being a hero Link would be the scum who let Ganondorf have the Triforce and wipe out Hyrule.... see what i mean?