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Twilight Princess: A strange turn of events

ChargewithSword

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Recently in my "Link's Father" thread, I had brought up a question that somewhat challenges Anouma's (sp) claim of Twilight Princess being at least 100 years after OOT.

Why are OOT Link and Zelda dead, but not Ganondorf?

Apparently since it seems to be accepted that the Hero's Spirit is Link's father and OOT Link. Why is he dead and an old adult at that yet Ganondorf looks as if he has only aged at least 20 years from his child timeline appearance.

Before anyone goes saying "The Triforce of Power stilled his age." Let me ask something. If Ganondorf had the Triforce of power for 100 years, why is Aribiter Grounds not a big piece of rubble right now? Apparently this fact challenges the theory of how TP could be 100 years after OOT. I don't have answers, but I only have a suggestion that TP could probably be at least 50-60 years after OOT a reasonable amount of time to pass, but still questionable.

I believe that this is up for a debate.
 
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It is in fact because he still possesed the Triforce of Power. I don't know what you mean by "why isn't the Arbiter's Grounds a big piece of rubble", but the series makes many references to Ganon still being alive by way of the Triforce of Power. In fact, the ending scene where Ganon is seen drifting off into the white light at the end of OoT shows Ganondorf clearly saying that he will come for Link and Zelda's decendants "as long as he has the Triforce of Power in his hand". This clearly shows that Ganondorf knows the Triforce has the power to keep him alive, and his promise is confirmed whenever we see Wind Waker role around, as Ganondorf is still alive, still with his piece of the Triforce, and going rounds with the new generation of Link and Zelda.

As for Twilight Princess, Ganondorf was never killed in that game. After the events of OoT, Link is sent back through time to his childhood, where it is speculated that he and Zelda told the King of Hyrule of Ganondorf's plans, which led to the Sages attempting to execute Ganondorf. We see all of this during a cutscene in TP. The sages even stab Ganondorf through the gut with their blade, which then shows him seem to die, but come back to life after the Triforce lights up on his hand. This is a direct reference to it being able to keep him alive. After that, he is sent to the Twilight Realm, and the rest is history.

The entire scene in TP of Ganondorf's trial can be speculated to take place some short time after Link returns to his childhood in OoT, therefore at the time of the trial, the Hero of Time, as well as the Zelda from OoT, would still be alive. What took so long was the time from which Ganondorf was placed into the Twilight Realm, to the time that the events of TP take place, where the Twilight is taking over Hyrule, and Ganondorf has once again rose to power by the help of Zant. The 100 years obviously took place between Ganondorf's trial and the beginning of TP.
 

ChargewithSword

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It is in fact because he still possesed the Triforce of Power. I don't know what you mean by "why isn't the Arbiter's Grounds a big piece of rubble", but the series makes many references to Ganon still being alive by way of the Triforce of Power. In fact, the ending scene where Ganon is seen drifting off into the white light at the end of OoT shows Ganondorf clearly saying that he will come for Link and Zelda's decendants "as long as he has the Triforce of Power in his hand". This clearly shows that Ganondorf knows the Triforce has the power to keep him alive, and his promise is confirmed whenever we see Wind Waker role around, as Ganondorf is still alive, still with his piece of the Triforce, and going rounds with the new generation of Link and Zelda.

As for Twilight Princess, Ganondorf was never killed in that game. After the events of OoT, Link is sent back through time to his childhood, where it is speculated that he and Zelda told the King of Hyrule of Ganondorf's plans, which led to the Sages attempting to execute Ganondorf. We see all of this during a cutscene in TP. The sages even stab Ganondorf through the gut with their blade, which then shows him seem to die, but come back to life after the Triforce lights up on his hand. This is a direct reference to it being able to keep him alive. After that, he is sent to the Twilight Realm, and the rest is history.

The question is why does he have it? If he had the Triforce of Power throughout his entire stay in the Aribiter Grounds, he would have destroyed it and escaped. Yet he waited for that one moment, when the Triforce of Power came to him.

How much Time elapsed before his execution? How was he kept in such shape throughout his imprisonment. If the execution was done say only a few days after Ganondorf was caught, then that means the events of TP should have happened in only say a few weeks from then. THe power of the Gods let him travel at his will.

What you said doesn't say why it took so long for him to get to the events of TP. He does not need to take such a long time to get back into the world of light, he needed a vessel. And Zant happened to be the perfect one for him.
 
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The question is why does he have it? If he had the Triforce of Power throughout his entire stay in the Aribiter Grounds, he would have destroyed it and escaped. Yet he waited for that one moment, when the Triforce of Power came to him.

It seems to me that the power of the Triforce cannot be used at Ganondorf's immediate discresion or yeah, he probably would have completely destroyed the Arbiter's Grounds. It is shown through Ocarina of Time and Twilight Princess both, that the power of the Triforce is granted mainly to Ganondorf at times when he needs it the most, or on the brink of death. In OoT, he uses it after being both defeated by Link and having an entire castle crumble on top of him. In TP, he uses it after being stabbed by a sword of light, infused with the power of the Sages. Without the Triforce, these events would have surely killed Ganondorf.

How much Time elapsed before his execution? How was he kept in such shape throughout his imprisonment. If the execution was done say only a few days after Ganondorf was caught, then that means the events of TP should have happened in only say a few weeks from then. THe power of the Gods let him travel at his will.

What you said doesn't say why it took so long for him to get to the events of TP. He does not need to take such a long time to get back into the world of light, he needed a vessel. And Zant happened to be the perfect one for him.

I would assume that there wasn't much time before his execution. Link obviously would have informed Zelda and the King as soon as he returned to his childhood, and I don't think the King would have waited too long to imprison Ganondorf. From then it would have only taken about a day for them to decide his fate. So as previously stated, it was most likely a day or so after Link returned to his childhood.

The events of TP don't have to happen only weeks after the trial. In fact, it would almost make no sense to have them happen that soon, for two big reasons. The King of Hyrule wouldn't have let Ganondorf live that long because that would give him time to find a way to escape, and wouldn't have taken that long to decide his fate as I'm sure they had strict laws during that time. The second reason is that we also see Ganon banished to other realms in other titles and having it take very long for him to get out of them. These in particular are OoT-WW and ALttP. The sealing of Ganon told in the manual/intro of ALttP apparently took place a long time before ALttP. So it took him a long time to use his power, being confined to the Dark World, to possess Agahnim (or take the form of Agahnim) and have him do his deeds in Hyrule during this time.

Equally, Ganondorf also still has the Triforce of Power in Wind Waker, which took place 100 years after Ocarina. We see there that it took 100 years roughly for Ganon to escape the realm in which he was placed in OoT, even with the power of the Triforce.
 
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Actually Jacensolo06 of LegendsAlliance retranslated the TP and tWW paralell interview. He said that he would translate it as hundreds of years.

Which makes a lot more sense.

And I wanna say that Aonuma also had an interview where he said something along the lines of "Ganondorf did something outrageous and got caught. The execution takes place a few years after OoT"

I'm almost positive there is an interview that says something like that. I'll try and find the exact quote.
 
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Actually Jacensolo06 of LegendsAlliance retranslated the TP and tWW paralell interview. He said that he would translate it as hundreds of years.

Which makes a lot more sense.

And I wanna say that Aonuma also had an interview where he said something along the lines of "Ganondorf did something outrageous and got caught. The execution takes place a few years after OoT"

I'm almost positive there is an interview that says something like that. I'll try and find the exact quote.

That interview is old news,and is probably known to most Zelda fan's by now.
 

ChargewithSword

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It seems to me that the power of the Triforce cannot be used at Ganondorf's immediate discresion or yeah, he probably would have completely destroyed the Arbiter's Grounds. It is shown through Ocarina of Time and Twilight Princess both, that the power of the Triforce is granted mainly to Ganondorf at times when he needs it the most, or on the brink of death. In OoT, he uses it after being both defeated by Link and having an entire castle crumble on top of him. In TP, he uses it after being stabbed by a sword of light, infused with the power of the Sages. Without the Triforce, these events would have surely killed Ganondorf.





I would assume that there wasn't much time before his execution. Link obviously would have informed Zelda and the King as soon as he returned to his childhood, and I don't think the King would have waited too long to imprison Ganondorf. From then it would have only taken about a day for them to decide his fate. So as previously stated, it was most likely a day or so after Link returned to his childhood.

The events of TP don't have to happen only weeks after the trial. In fact, it would almost make no sense to have them happen that soon, for two big reasons. The King of Hyrule wouldn't have let Ganondorf live that long because that would give him time to find a way to escape, and wouldn't have taken that long to decide his fate as I'm sure they had strict laws during that time. The second reason is that we also see Ganon banished to other realms in other titles and having it take very long for him to get out of them. These in particular are OoT-WW and ALttP. The sealing of Ganon told in the manual/intro of ALttP apparently took place a long time before ALttP. So it took him a long time to use his power, being confined to the Dark World, to possess Agahnim (or take the form of Agahnim) and have him do his deeds in Hyrule during this time.

Equally, Ganondorf also still has the Triforce of Power in Wind Waker, which took place 100 years after Ocarina. We see there that it took 100 years roughly for Ganon to escape the realm in which he was placed in OoT, even with the power of the Triforce.

In OOT he used the Triforce to battle you, he used it upon choice. That is why he raised his hand and used the power to keep Navi away.

1. The king thought Ganondorf was dead and everyone else except the sages though so too. But Ganondorf had the Triforce of Power with him, had he returned by normal means, there probably would not have been a Link there to save Hryule since in a few days that Link had gone on a journey to find a fairy.

2. OOT (Adult) never explained exactly at what time Ganondorf had escaped his imprisonment in the Sacred Realm, but I would guess that it couldn't have been that long since it happened when the Hero had disappeared.
Alttp is a bit different, Ganondorf actually needed a vessel. But what vessel was there to go back to Hyrule? Agahnim was from the light world since Ganon was trapped in the sacred realm. He needed to contact him from the Dark World which took much power since there were no effective gates at the time. During TP Ganondorf had his vessel as soon as he came in to the Twilight, and the gateway (Mirror of Twilight) was still there but Ganondorf needed a new body to go through (he was to weak from the wound given to him.) And since he had the Triforce of Power, and because OOT Link could not properly wield the Master Sword yet, he would have gone at any time.
 
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In OOT he used the Triforce to battle you, he used it upon choice. That is why he raised his hand and used the power to keep Navi away.

Yeah, he is able to use the Triforce, but not in its fullness. If he could use the full power of the Triforce of Power, Ganondorf would have easily became ruler of Hyrule early on, or defeated Link early on. It is clearly shown that he can only use the Triforce's full power at times of great distress, such as when he's about to die.

Ganondorf also already has the ability to use magic, so he is not entirely normal even without the Triforce of Power. In fact, the scene in OoT showing Zelda and Impa riding away from Ganondorf on horseback shows him create a ball of energy and blast Link with it. This same ball of energy is used during the battle with him at the end of the game, which is another reason why I don't believe he was using the full power of the Triforce. I would think it would have given him a little more to work with than just tossing a ball of energy out that he could have made on his own and floating in the air.
 

ChargewithSword

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Yeah, he is able to use the Triforce, but not in its fullness. If he could use the full power of the Triforce of Power, Ganondorf would have easily became ruler of Hyrule early on, or defeated Link early on. It is clearly shown that he can only use the Triforce's full power at times of great distress, such as when he's about to die.

Ganondorf also already has the ability to use magic, so he is not entirely normal even without the Triforce of Power. In fact, the scene in OoT showing Zelda and Impa riding away from Ganondorf on horseback shows him create a ball of energy and blast Link with it. This same ball of energy is used during the battle with him at the end of the game, which is another reason why I don't believe he was using the full power of the Triforce. I would think it would have given him a little more to work with than just tossing a ball of energy out that he could have made on his own and floating in the air.

If I recall, he was battling another user of the Triforce. Who knows maybe the battle was only on even terms because Link was using his piece of the Triforce to keep him alive. Ganondorf was also very overconfident (if him flying around just throwing a ball of light at you without much else isn't overconfidence, then I don't know what. It's not like he couldn't use the Triforce, he was toying with you.
Yes he can use magic but let me say that I don't remember him being able to cast that giant ball, and even during the battle it took him some time to form it.
 

Zemen

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i honestly find this whole thread to be pointless. the creators have told us it comes 100 years or so after OoT. i also dont understand why you think it could not take so long. lets think of it this way. you think that the event could have taken place weeks, months or a few years after OoT but that makes NO sense for a number of reasons.

reason number one is that there is no twilight realm in OoT and i doubt that within weeks, months or a few years the magic wielding tribe sent to the twilight realm wold be able to create their castle and learn to use the magic they have and thrive in that short amount of time. you said Ganondorf needs a vessel and Zant is his vessel. Zant is obviously an adult male which means that it cant come so close to OoT because there has to be some amount of time for him to be born and be an adult. even if the game was 50-60 years apart as you suggested that would be unrealistic because theoretically the original link could still be alive but there has never been two links in one game (except for FS/FSA which is a completely different scenario). the light sages knew that ganondorf had the triforce of power once they realized he wasnt dying. they obviously had to have sent him somewhere where they knew that the triforce of power would not allow him to escape so easily. if they knew he could just escape whenever he wanted then why would they banish him to begin with?

the creators say that the game takes place roughly 100 years after OoT and i think it makes perfect sense. there are deserted towns (kakariko village), a deserted desert where the Gerudo once lived but no longer do and there are new towns (ordon village). i think it would take longer than you suggested for all of this to happen.
 

ChargewithSword

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i honestly find this whole thread to be pointless. the creators have told us it comes 100 years or so after OoT. i also dont understand why you think it could not take so long. lets think of it this way. you think that the event could have taken place weeks, months or a few years after OoT but that makes NO sense for a number of reasons.

reason number one is that there is no twilight realm in OoT and i doubt that within weeks, months or a few years the magic wielding tribe sent to the twilight realm wold be able to create their castle and learn to use the magic they have and thrive in that short amount of time. you said Ganondorf needs a vessel and Zant is his vessel. Zant is obviously an adult male which means that it cant come so close to OoT because there has to be some amount of time for him to be born and be an adult. even if the game was 50-60 years apart as you suggested that would be unrealistic because theoretically the original link could still be alive but there has never been two links in one game (except for FS/FSA which is a completely different scenario). the light sages knew that ganondorf had the triforce of power once they realized he wasnt dying. they obviously had to have sent him somewhere where they knew that the triforce of power would not allow him to escape so easily. if they knew he could just escape whenever he wanted then why would they banish him to begin with?

the creators say that the game takes place roughly 100 years after OoT and i think it makes perfect sense. there are deserted towns (kakariko village), a deserted desert where the Gerudo once lived but no longer do and there are new towns (ordon village). i think it would take longer than you suggested for all of this to happen.

Miyamoto told us the timeline, back when OOT was released, and now look what happened to that timeline. It's considered wrong and outdated now.

We don't know when the Twili came to be like this. They did not start at the begining of OOT because we know one about the Dark Tribe's connections. One is that Majora's Mask (the eye on the fused shadow cannot be a coincidance and resemble Majora's eye that much.) The Masked Salesmen told us the tribe had been wiped out long ago (he travels across worlds and found the mask in Hyrule so the tribe he speaks of can't be in Termina) and thus they have been trapped in the Twilight Realm long before OOT.
They didn't know he had the Triforce and neither did Ganondorf. They were intending to kill him, but when that failed they had to banish him out of panic from the death of the water sage.


Have you not seen the many bublins running about in TP, they make fortress of steel and rock. They had been terrorizing everyone and everything before Link came. And when Ganondorf was captured, it's obvious that the King of Hyrule had to send an army at least to face the Gerudos who were many strong.
Kakarico has been prone to attacked from the Bublins and was even sealed off by them, and shadow creatures as well. It's obvious that they were the ones who drove it's people away and left it in ruin.
 
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No, there's no way it could have taken only a few years for TP to happen. I mean, when Ganondorf was banished to the Twilight Realm, Zant probably wasn't even alive. The Twili that were already there (if there even were any) probably weren't suited for what Ganondorf needed. Maybe they weren't power-hungry enough. Or possibly the Dark Tribe was banished to the Twilight Realm a while after Ganondorf arrived there. Either one of those, or time in the Twilight Realm is not on the same plane as time in Hyrule, which could be very possible, but doesn't make as much sense as the others.
I don't see how you can contradict this, as even the creators say this is what happened.
 

ChargewithSword

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No, there's no way it could have taken only a few years for TP to happen. I mean, when Ganondorf was banished to the Twilight Realm, Zant probably wasn't even alive. The Twili that were already there (if there even were any) probably weren't suited for what Ganondorf needed. Maybe they weren't power-hungry enough. Or possibly the Dark Tribe was banished to the Twilight Realm a while after Ganondorf arrived there. Either one of those, or time in the Twilight Realm is not on the same plane as time in Hyrule, which could be very possible, but doesn't make as much sense as the others.
I don't see how you can contradict this, as even the creators say this is what happened.

Did I say a few years? I said 50-60 that isn't a few. 100 is to much for such events to pass. The creators have been wrong before, because they don't know what they reveal in the future. Miyamoto present a poem and a timeline, and both are now considered wrong because of time. The events of MM tell of how the dark tribe was banished long before then. The happy mask salesman explains this.
Why did no one react to the death of the water sage? Because it happened in an age where the sages themselves have become myth and legend. The people now follow the spirits and ignore the sages completly. If the death of the water sage had happened during the time when Ganondorf was sent to prison, there probably would have been a search for a new sage at least, yet they have been ignored and they cannot leave the Aribiter Grounds.
 
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Saying that the Dark Tribe in Termina is the same as the one mentioned in Hyrule is not a very good example of continuation. Termina was a completely different world altogether. Whether or not they had any knowledge of Hyrule or its gods has not been confirmed. Yes, there are references to the Triforce in Termina and people speculate that its people, or at least those in Ikana, were followers of Majora and made their monuments to disgrace the goddesses of Hyrule, but that is all speculation.

The bottom line is, if nothing has been confirmed, it cannot be considered true. The only thing we have to go on is what Miyamoto has said, and in some rare instances what Eonuma (sp?) has said, since many of his comments have been proven false, and just sounded down right confused when he made them.

Also, I'd like to point out about your coincidence statement, Sign, about that eye on Majora's Mask and the Fused Shadow. That same eye design has been used numerous times throughout the Zelda series. A few examples are with the Mask of Truth, Vaati's eye, Agahnim's eye design on his clothing, and the various stones throughout Hyrule in OoT. This design hasn't been proven to all be linked with one another, so I doubt that it all has to do with the same dark tribe, especially since its use has not always been for a dark purpose.

Another thing is the ball of energy I had talked about. It seems that many people do not remember this event when I talk about it, even though it was one of the more memorable cut scenes in OoT. Heres a vid to refresh everyone's memory.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEK20odBtE0


And that is the proof that Ganondorf already could use his magic in the same manner he did in the final battle. Ganondorf obviously used his piece of the Triforce more than Link or Zelda, probably because it was the Triforce of Power and granted him such. Link has never been shown to actually use the Triforce, therefore you must consider the names of each piece simply rather than a literal entire power fueled relic of each piece. The Triforce of Courage enables Link to have the courage to complete his journeys and in some instances defeat Ganon, however there have been times, such as with ALttP, that Link neither had nor needed use of the Triforce to accomplish this. It never kept him alive as it has done with Ganon over the years in the series.
 

ChargewithSword

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Saying that the Dark Tribe in Termina is the same as the one mentioned in Hyrule is not a very good example of continuation. Termina was a completely different world altogether. Whether or not they had any knowledge of Hyrule or its gods has not been confirmed. Yes, there are references to the Triforce in Termina and people speculate that its people, or at least those in Ikana, were followers of Majora and made their monuments to disgrace the goddesses of Hyrule, but that is all speculation.

The bottom line is, if nothing has been confirmed, it cannot be considered true. The only thing we have to go on is what Miyamoto has said, and in some rare instances what Eonuma (sp?) has said, since many of his comments have been proven false, and just sounded down right confused when he made them.

Also, I'd like to point out about your coincidence statement, Sign, about that eye on Majora's Mask and the Fused Shadow. That same eye design has been used numerous times throughout the Zelda series. A few examples are with the Mask of Truth, Vaati's eye, Agahnim's eye design on his clothing, and the various stones throughout Hyrule in OoT. This design hasn't been proven to all be linked with one another, so I doubt that it all has to do with the same dark tribe, especially since its use has not always been for a dark purpose.

Another thing is the ball of energy I had talked about. It seems that many people do not remember this event when I talk about it, even though it was one of the more memorable cut scenes in OoT. Heres a vid to refresh everyone's memory.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEK20odBtE0


And that is the proof that Ganondorf already could use his magic in the same manner he did in the final battle. Ganondorf obviously used his piece of the Triforce more than Link or Zelda, probably because it was the Triforce of Power and granted him such. Link has never been shown to actually use the Triforce, therefore you must consider the names of each piece simply rather than a literal entire power fueled relic of each piece. The Triforce of Courage enables Link to have the courage to complete his journeys and in some instances defeat Ganon, however there have been times, such as with ALttP, that Link neither had nor needed use of the Triforce to accomplish this. It never kept him alive as it has done with Ganon over the years in the series.

Dark Link, the Mask Salesman has been evidenced to being able to travel other worlds. He was in OOT and MM and is probably the only character other than Link and the Skull Kid who can move between the worlds. He was assaulted by Skull kid in the Lost Woods in Hyrule, the Dark Tribe has been referenced in Hyrule for the most part, they have architecture that resembles Majora's Mask (The fused Shadows) what's to say that the one he is referencing isn't in Hyrule.

THe eye design of Majora and the fused shadows are put in a position that they are to alike. All the other resemblances have been in different positions and always have to many differences. However the fused Shadow eye is an exact replica of Majora's eye it is done in the same position, attempts the same size, the same squinting. It is to close to be a coincidence.

I remember that indecent clearly, and Ganondorf never used that entire blast of energy before (the one he uses in the final battle) which takes a lot of his time to conjure. Ganondorf was using his piece of the Triforce to grant him power, but he was overconfident.

Link was using the Triforce in order to stand against Ganon's power which as a child he could barely even go up against. Each Link is different when it comes to power and stature, making how they survive different every time. Link in OOT needed the Triforce to keep him alive in OOT against Ganondorf and Ganon (he regains all his hearts before the final battle.)
 

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