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Transgendered People and Public Rights?

Luke's Wife

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wouldn't you like to know, weather boy
before we get into this I'd really appreciate no jokes like "my gender is (insert inanimate object)" and stuff like that because I've seen a lot of that kind of thing on here, and as someone who identifies as non-binary it sucks to be mocked like that. That's all I ask

In both the United States and Canada, many senators are planning to create laws that force people to use the washroom for the sex they were assigned at birth. Many people are claiming that these laws are very transphobic, and I agree. Here in Canada, we have a transgender rights bill, however on February 26th, Senator Donald Plett made it a point to exclude "sex specific" areas, aka places like public restrooms, from which the legislation would be exempt. He did so claiming that it was for "safety" and to prevent "pedophilia" in women's washrooms, implying that transgender women are not actually women, and forcing transgendered individuals into a washroom that does not suit their gender identity.

story here.

Trans people can often experience serious gender dysphoria when forced to adhere to gender roles and restrictions that do not fit their identity, and many activists both in the US and Canada are calling this amendment extremely transphobic. Many trans people have started a protest against the movement, taking pictures of themselves in the bathrooms they are forced into and asking if this is where they really belong, sometimes using the hashtags "#PlettPutMeHere" and "#WeJustNeedToPee".

Examples under the cut:





Plett's amendment gives off the impression that trans people, especially trans women, are not to be trusted and are an actual safety hazard, something I find ridiculous. This accentuates the belief that trans women are simply "men in dresses", which is not true. If you say you are a woman, you are a woman. You do not need to dress or look like a woman to be a woman. Many trans people of course do prefer to transition, but there are some who cannot or don't want to. Transition can be a very long, complex, and expensive process, and not everyone is able to do it.

The irony of this amendment is that transgender people are often the ones who are in danger in the public washrooms. A large majority of trans people find themselves discriminated against and physically and verbally harassed in public washrooms because of how they identify.

Also, fact: It is legal in all states except California to use "trans/gay panic" as a defense, meaning that people can use this excuse of discovering a trans person's gender to defend assault, or even murder.

With the multiple transgender teen suicides already happening this year, and the large amount of transgendered people that have been murdered because of their identity, I think it's time to step up our rights and start supporting and protecting trans people, don't you?

Now, my questions for you.
1) Do you think that a transgendered person should be able to use their washroom of choice, regardless of sex assigned at birth?
2) What about the concept of gender-neutral washrooms? I, as someone who identifies as non-binary, would love it if more gender neutral washrooms were created in public places, and I know many people don't feel comfortable using either the male or female rooms.
3) What is your opinion on the negative stereotypes that surround trans people, and especially trans women?
4) What do you think of public transgender rights in general? Do we need to work more towards rights?

thx 4 reading
 
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Mercedes

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Well, going off the questions...
  1. I don't think they should be able to choose which one to use. They should use the one of whatever gender they identify as, not the one they're born as. If a male changes sex and becomes a female, they use female bathrooms. Simple!
  2. I think that seems like a silly concept which is completely un-necessary if it's given even an ounce of thought. If you're happy using a gender neutral bathroom, you're therefore happy to be using it with both men and women around you. So what, if you went into the bathroom and it was only filled with women, you wouldn't be able to go until a man came in too? No, that's stupid. If you can do it when both men and women are around, you can certainly do it when only 1 of those genders are around, so use the bathroom of whatever gender you are.
  3. Stupid. Someone being trans or not does not change anything about them as a person.
  4. I'm not aware of many ways in which they don't have rights, it seems like it's more these little awkward parts of the Law we don't know how to handle it. Like the trans-woman who raced in the Olympics as a woman; it's not really about rights, it's more not knowing what to do. But if there are instances where they aren't equal, they should be challenged at every step.
 

Luke's Wife

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I think that seems like a silly concept which is completely un-necessary if it's given even an ounce of thought. If you're happy using a gender neutral bathroom, you're therefore happy to be using it with both men and women around you. So what, if you went into the bathroom and it was only filled with women, you wouldn't be able to go until a man came in too? No, that's stupid. If you can do it when both men and women are around, you can certainly do it when only 1 of those genders are around, so use the bathroom of whatever gender you are.
Sorry, I should clarify. I meant the creation of a gender neutral washroom (think, like, a solo unisex washroom that places sometimes have) for people who identify as neither male nor female and therefore don't want to use one or the other. Does that make more sense?
 

Beauts

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Sorry, I should clarify. I meant the creation of a gender neutral washroom (think, like, a solo unisex washroom that places sometimes have) for people who identify as neither male nor female and therefore don't want to use one or the other. Does that make more sense?
I agree with everything Mercedes said, but on this point, well I don't get it. If a bathroom is gender-neutral then it's gender-neutral. Don't put labels on the door for gender at all. That way no matter whether you're male, female or non-binary, surely it won't even come into question. It'll just be a bathroom.

P.S. When I said male or female, I was including trans people in that. I am a strong believer in calling the person the gender they are, not necessarily the one they were born as whatever. I don't tend to add trans. To me you are what you feel.
 
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I can understand to some degree why, if the person in question hasn't had a full change, others might be uncomfortable. I tried to slip into the men's bathroom once because the women's was out of order and some guy kicked me out. Though as far as the worry about sexual assault goes, many doors leading into a public restroom aren't closed anyways, some don't even have doors at all which means anyone can slip in when no one is watching.
 

Azure Sage

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1) Do you think that a transgendered person should be able to use their washroom of choice, regardless of sex assigned at birth?
They should absolutely be allowed to use the washroom for the gender they identify with. What too many people don't understand is that gender is NOT biological, it's identity. Gender and biological sex are not linked. Genitals do not determine gender. If a person identifies as a woman, then she is a woman. So naturally, she should be able to use the women's washroom like any other woman can.
2) What about the concept of gender-neutral washrooms? I, as someone who identifies as non-binary, would love it if more gender neutral washrooms were created in public places, and I know many people don't feel comfortable using either the male or female rooms.
I think it would be a good idea. It would also be a nice option to have for trans people who don't feel safe using the other washrooms.
3) What is your opinion on the negative stereotypes that surround trans people, and especially trans women?
**** the negative stereotypes. I am honestly really sick of hearing bull**** like "trans women are not real women". **** that noise. It needs to stop and ignorant people need to get educated.
4) What do you think of public transgender rights in general? Do we need to work more towards rights?
We absolutely need to work on more rights. Trans people are discriminated against way too often and there's a huge negative stigma against them, and that desperately needs to be changed. There are too many people with disgusting ideas out there that are preventing them from having equal rights, and people who don't even think they're worth having equal rights. I had a conversation with my mother about this a few months ago, and she told me that trans people shouldn't use certain bathrooms because it makes other people uncomfortable, and when I told her to consider transgender people's feelings, her response was "Tough ****". Disgusting things like that need to go away. Trans people need protective rights and they need to be treated like people, because that's exactly what they are. People.
 

Jamie

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I disagree. I don't think the bathrooms have anything to do with gender, it's to do with your no no bits. Your sex. Trans women still have penises, and trans men have vaginas. What if I all of a sudden say, "I'm a woman", and go into the woman's bathroom. They would rightfully be offended. I don't look like a woman in the slightest bit but because I identify as one, I can use their bathroom? That opens up so many loopholes for perversion, but more importantly, if I have a beard and a penis I shouldn't be allowed in the girls bathroom. What if I was in the dudes bathroom holding that picture, "PLETT put me in here" in front of a urinal. You'd have no idea what the hell was going on, because I look like a guy, because my hormones align with that of a male.

I'm all for equal rights and such but there are limits. Should trans women be allowed to compete in female sports? Hell no! They are biologically male so they are naturally stronger. Should trans women be allowed in the women's bathroom? Likewise, no. Despite their identity, they still have a penis.
 

Azure Sage

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I disagree. I don't think the bathrooms have anything to do with gender, it's to do with your no no bits. Your sex. Trans women still have penises, and trans men have vaginas. What if I all of a sudden say, "I'm a woman", and go into the woman's bathroom. They would rightfully be offended. I don't look like a woman in the slightest bit but because I identify as one, I can use their bathroom? That opens up so many loopholes for perversion, but more importantly, if I have a beard and a penis I shouldn't be allowed in the girls bathroom. What if I was in the dudes bathroom holding that picture, "PLETT put me in here" in front of a urinal. You'd have no idea what the hell was going on, because I look like a guy, because my hormones align with that of a male.
So we should just forsake the mental health and basic rights of trans people because their genitals doesn't match up with the bathroom. I explained this in my previous post, but genitals don't have diddly squat to do with gender. You can have a penis and be female, and you can have a vagina and be a male.
if I have a beard and a penis I shouldn't be allowed in the girls bathroom
Why are you assuming that a beard and a penis automatically equate to a man in a discussion about transgender people

And by the way, there is actually statistically a ridiculously small percentage of people who have used that as an excuse to peep. Like, ridiculously small as in one or two people.
I'm all for equal rights and such but there are limits. Should trans women be allowed to compete in female sports? Hell no! They are biologically male so they are naturally stronger. Should trans women be allowed in the women's bathroom? Likewise, no. Despite their identity, they still have a penis.
Please tell me you aren't suggesting that a woman with the exact same weight class/muscle strength/what have you as a man is automatically weaker than said man because she's a woman

And as I have said, having a penis does not make you a man. If more people could understand that, it wouldn't be a problem.
 

Jamie

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Az, I am of the opinion that bathrooms should be sex based separation, not gender based. I thought I made that pretty clear. It's not a restriction of trans rights because I am talking about biology, not identity.

Furthermore, obviously women and men with the same muscle strength have...the same muscle strength. However, men naturally produce WAY more testosterone and so they can generally reach higher muscle strengths much more easily. Look at the women's bench press vs mens, or the 100m dash. Do you think if Usain Bolt identified as a woman, he should be allowed to run in women's 100m dash, despite the fact that the women can't even reach 10.5 and he did 9.58? Athletics should be based on SEX, not GENDER, because athletics has to do with BIOLOGY not IDENTITY. I'm not sure if you are arguing trans women should be allowed in women's sports but if so I suggest you take a step back and realize what you are saying. In essence, a trans woman's testosterone production from birth would be like if a woman was jacked up on a TON of PEDs.
 

Azure Sage

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Az, I am of the opinion that bathrooms should be sex based separation, not gender based. I thought I made that pretty clear. It's not a restriction of trans rights because I am talking about biology, not identity.
Even if that's your opinion, it's still restricting trans people's rights who aren't of that same opinion. That's like saying anti-gay marriage legislation isn't an infringement of gay rights because it's your opinion that marriage is only for heterosexual couples.
Furthermore, obviously women and men with the same muscle strength have...the same muscle strength. However, men naturally produce WAY more testosterone and so they can generally reach higher muscle strengths much more easily. Look at the women's bench press vs mens, or the 100m dash. Do you think if Usain Bolt identified as a woman, he should be allowed to run in women's 100m dash, despite the fact that the women can't even reach 10.5 and he did 9.58? Athletics should be based on SEX, not GENDER, because athletics has to do with BIOLOGY not IDENTITY. I'm not sure if you are arguing trans women should be allowed in women's sports but if so I suggest you take a step back and realize what you are saying.
What I bolded was pretty much all I was asking.
 

Jamie

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No its not. If by definition, bathrooms were restricted by sex and not gender, then it wouldn't be restricting rights any more than trans women not being allowed in women's sports would be. If bathrooms were restricted by gender and not sex, then yes, trans women should be allowed in the women's bathroom. It totally depends on how you set the restrictions.
 

Azure Sage

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No its not. If by definition, bathrooms were restricted by sex and not gender, then it wouldn't be restricting rights any more than trans women not being allowed in women's sports would be. If bathrooms were restricted by gender and not sex, then yes, trans women should be allowed in the women's bathroom. It totally depends on how you set the restrictions.
Except that it's your opinion that bathrooms should be restricted by sex, not how it actually is (at least as far as I know). And by definition, marriage has traditionally been between a man and a women, and that still infringes on gay rights. So that doesn't really change my argument.
 

Jamie

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Well clearly we haven't defined how it is. I'd say that according to those pictures, the separation is based on sex.

And no those are different things. Men and women biologically are different. Gay men and straight men are not.
 

Moonstone

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Now, my questions for you.
1) Do you think that a transgendered person should be able to use their washroom of choice, regardless of sex assigned at birth?
2) What about the concept of gender-neutral washrooms? I, as someone who identifies as non-binary, would love it if more gender neutral washrooms were created in public places, and I know many people don't feel comfortable using either the male or female rooms.
3) What is your opinion on the negative stereotypes that surround trans people, and especially trans women?
4) What do you think of public transgender rights in general? Do we need to work more towards rights?
1) Absolutely. Actually, I think we should do away with urinals and let people use whatever bathroom they want regardless of gender identity.
2) See above^ Also, I think there should always be a single person bathroom, for those who don't want to use the public room with anyone else.
3) I dislike all negative stereotypes against any group of people.
4) Of course!
 

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