Timeline Impossibilities

[MrMosley]

There are many facts that go against the possibility that Zelda has an actual timeline. There are those that also greatly influence a timeline. I believe that there is a timeline, somehow, but the games we have been given so far do not do a timeline justice, and therefore a definite timeline cannot be thought up.


Here are my points.

Ocarina of Time
This game must come first, as some might say...Or must it? Think about this. Twinrova are alive and well during the events of Oracle of Ages/Seasons. In Ocarina, they were killed off by Link. And weren't they nice witches in Termina? Being that Termina has a lot of the same races/characters as Ocarina, I believe that the Twin Rova in Ocarina and the ones in Majora were different, or parallel. The ones in the Oracles must be the same as Ocarina, as their ties with Ganon and their evil ways are too similar for these games.


Twilight Princess
The geography for Hyrule in this game is way too similar to that of Ocarina to be a "new Hyrule". My point being that in Wind Waker, Link and Zelda set off to discover a "new Hyrule", which would be almost impossible to find with the same geographical makeup of the original. So Twilight must have taken place after Ocarina and before Wind Waker, right? Wrong... If Twilight took place after Ocarina, then the Wind Waker story wouldn't have been the same. In it, it tells of Ganon returning to Hyrule, with no Link around to save it. When Ganon returned to Hyrule from the Twilight Realm in Twilight Princess, there was a Link there or we would have no game to play.


A Link to the Past
The Imprisoning War...What I believe to be an exhagerated story of Ocarina, and others believe to be something totally different... Either way, it tells of Ganon being imprisoned by six sages. To me, this is too similar to Ocarina to not be influenced by, or be the same story told different, as Ocarina. So, a Link to the Past must take place long after Ocarina. Long enough for the story to be twisted in a way that a simple battle is believed now to have been a full blown war. So Ganon was put in the Sacred Realm, which became the dark realm. Link went and whooped him, so there he was, defeated. This would mean that he remained within the Dark World, only to regain power some time later and be able to return at a time when Link wasn't around, as told in Wind Waker's opening. So when must have this happend? It would have had to be when Link either stayed in Termina, or stayed in Holodrum/Labrynna, which brings me to the Oracle series.


Oracle of Ages/Seasons
I made a point earlier in the Ocarina section of how this game has a good chance of taking place prior to the events of Ocarina. That point was the death of Twinrova. Now, as far as the Oracles, we see Twinrova trying to revive Ganon. These games would have been a good sequel to Majora's Mask, having the same Link from Ocarina saving these new lands, but who revived Twinrova for them to return in Oracle? So here we have Oracle maybe happening before Ocarina, in which case another game would have to have taken place before the Oracles in order for Ganon to be dead. But which game would that have been?


So, even though it may not be right, and I may even partly disagree with it myself, in thinking of a valid timeline, we must consider that when these games were made, there was no timeline. Nintendo didnt even know if there was going to be a third Zelda. Maybe they tried to link games like Alttp and Ocarina with the similar stories, and maybe even the Oracles with Oot...But they seem to only be reusing the same races and similar looking characters with similar storylines to tell the same legend in as many ways as they can. This isn't such a bad thing. A timeline would mean a structure to the series. It would also mean that the games must all fit somehow together. With a structure, it limits the creativity of what can be of the series.

 

[zeypherlink]

I don't feel like quoting you, so I'll disprove your points like this.

#1- Yes, Koume and Kotake were killed off by Link. In the Adult timeline. This explains why they're alive in MM, which is the Child timeline, and in the Oracles, which fit into the Child timeline.

#2- That would be true...but we have to think about the split timeline. TP has to place in the Child timeline to be accurate, because of what you said about TWW. It also explains why ALttP, FSA, and the Oracles all go in the Child timeline.

#3- I believe the events you speak of occur right before TP, when the sages capture Ganondorf and seal him into the Twilight Realm. You have to think split timeline for this...In the Adult timeline, Ganon/dorf was beaten by Link and sealed away. In the Child timeline, Ganondorf still hasn't been sealed...so there's somewhat of a "war" to get him in.

#4- Ok, so pretty much what I said before..."Yes, Koume and Kotake were killed off by Link. In the Adult timeline. This explains why they're alive in MM, which is the Child timeline, and in the Oracles, which fit into the Child timeline." ALttP places right before the Oracles, and if you remember correctly, Ganon/dorf was destroyed by Link in ALttP, so that would explain why Koume and Kotake were reviving him.

Anything I'm missing?

 

[MrMosley]

Ok, but heres one major problem with the Adult Timeline. How is it even existant? If Link, as a kid, travelled through time seven years to the point to where Ganon had risen to power, acquired the Triforce of Power, and defeated him, then travelled back to the exact point in which he left, that would render everything he done as an adult in the future, non existant.

I can try to structure it out like this:

Ocarina of Time
Kid Link---Pulls out Master Sword, travels through time seven years.
Adult Link---Defeats Ganon seven years in future, returns to point at which left as kid, 7 years before.
Kid Link---Resumes life from the point at which he left for the future, meaning he never officially left. Ganon is still alive at this point. Link goes off to find Navi.

Majora's Mask
Kid Link---Goes to Termina to find Navi. Defeates Majora's Mask. Returns to forest, however it is unknown and can only be assumed that Link returned to Hyrule.

***If Kid Link returned---He was summoned by the Triforce some time later to go to Holodrum and Labrynna to stop Koume and Kotake (never killed because the Adult Timeline hasn't happend) from reviving a dead Ganon (who also was never defeated yet because its still within the Child Timeline)

***If Kid Link didn't return---He remained in Termina for his life, Ganon somehow "returned" from the sacred realm he was sealed within, but could not have possibly happend yet because the Adult Timeline did not yet exist.


So the point about Koume and Kotake had been proven by you that I was wrong in assuming they were dead at the time of the Oracles. But it also brings up this other point about Ganon. Meaning that there would have had to be a story that took place prior to Ocarina where Ganon was sealed away within the realm, in order for him to ever return from it.

 

[zeypherlink]

Time travel hurts my head...
Uh...

No, because the events already happened, and it's only Link who goes back, it's not like the whole space time continueum goes back or something.

Kind of like in Back to the Future, when Marty gives Doc the letter telling him he's gonna die, and it changes what happens in the future when he goes back...to the future...If that makes any sense.

 

[MrMosley]

Right, and I had an idea that movie would come into effect here, lol. But the thing is that in the movie, the future was changed in the past. In Ocarina, the future is being changed in the future and not the past. There was no way for kid Link to stop Ganon in the past. Thats why he was sent seven years in the future in the first place. But if he returned, he would have erased anything that took place in the future by not staying there.


I did come up with a new theory though which may be something interesting towards a potential storyline.

It says in the opening of TWW that a Hero defeated Ganon and sealed him away within the realm, but left and never returned when Ganon escaped the realm. To me, this could mean what it meant literally, that Ganon was sealed away and came back later, or it could mean that my theory about the Adult Timeline not existing was correct.

If Link defeated Ganon in the future, he would have been praised for his efforts and reguarded as a hero. But if he returned to his kid time, those events would have never happend. So in TWW's opening it could mean, Link defeated Ganon, and Hyrule praisd him for a time. But upon returning to the past, rendering his efforts non existant, and leaving for Termina, when Ganon indeed escaped the Sacred Realm, Link was never there to defeat him.

Could be.....

 

[zeypherlink]

When Link is sent back into the past, it creates an alternate timeline, like in Back to the Future when the alternate timeline was created when Biff got Grey's Sports Almanac. It's kind of the same thing if you think about it...

 

[Leix]

When Link is sent back into the past, it creates an alternate timeline, like in Back to the Future when the alternate timeline was created when Biff got Grey's Sports Almanac. It's kind of the same thing if you think about it...

Only one problem.
Changing the future dosen't change the past.
In BTTF, they changed the past which alters the future.

For some reason, Ganon, Link, and presumabley Navi aren't affected by time travel and stayed where they were (otherwise Link wouldn't set out to find Navi in MM, because she'd be in the forest).
My guess is that Zelda sent him to an alternate dimension where everything is happy(would explain the lack of Navi). Or in the Sacred Realm, time dosen't move.
Ah this is the only problem i've ever seen with the split timeline. Changing the future dosen't affect the past. so what in hyrule really happened?

 

[El Bagu]

Right, and I had an idea that movie would come into effect here, lol. But the thing is that in the movie, the future was changed in the past. In Ocarina, the future is being changed in the future and not the past. There was no way for kid Link to stop Ganon in the past. Thats why he was sent seven years in the future in the first place. But if he returned, he would have erased anything that took place in the future by not staying there.


I did come up with a new theory though which may be something interesting towards a potential storyline.

It says in the opening of TWW that a Hero defeated Ganon and sealed him away within the realm, but left and never returned when Ganon escaped the realm. To me, this could mean what it meant literally, that Ganon was sealed away and came back later, or it could mean that my theory about the Adult Timeline not existing was correct.

If Link defeated Ganon in the future, he would have been praised for his efforts and reguarded as a hero. But if he returned to his kid time, those events would have never happend. So in TWW's opening it could mean, Link defeated Ganon, and Hyrule praisd him for a time. But upon returning to the past, rendering his efforts non existant, and leaving for Termina, when Ganon indeed escaped the Sacred Realm, Link was never there to defeat him.

Could be.....

Was he really sent to the future? Did not time pass by while his soul was resting or something (damn it does not feel good to not be able to express exactly what you want..............)

 

[Brandon]

First off, I think all of the problems listed in the first post are problems easily solved by the split timeline theory, so we have to accept a split timeline. Now, making sense of the split is a whole different issue, and I think it is a mistake to assume real world physics in the zelda universe. Since we know a split timeline is the only option, we have to accept that the physics works (within the zelda universe). It is working backwards to argue that the split timeline doesn't work because the physics don't fit. If zelda fans want to tease out the physics of the zelda universe, that's fine, but any acceptable theory about time in the world of Hyrule should take the split timeline as axiomatic.

I think the best explanation is that the nature of the time travel caused by zelda using the ocarina of time on Link is different from the time travel resulting from Link pulling the master sword the master sword. I also think it is significant that the door of time closes at the end (perhaps effectively closing off the possibility of affecting the future created by adult link). We also do not know whether Link travels back to the same point at the end as he had been traveling back to throughout the game.

Some of these explanations, like the door of time closing affecting the flow of events, may not fit the real world physics everyone has been assuming, but we have to remember we are talking about a world with magic, deities, and other fantastical elements that would alter the way time and space operate.

 

[MrMosley]

A split timeline still dosen't solve why Twin Rova are trying to revive a dead Ganon, when there was no place for Ganon to die. You can say well, the Oracle series had Twin Rova because they take place when they are still alive, within the Child timeline, whether it be after Majora's Mask or whatever, but if you say that, theres no point at which Ganon was actually killed.

 

[Brandon]

Actually, the split timeline can explain the fact that ganon is dead and that twinrova is alive. The oracles games take place after ALttP in which gannon was killed at the end, and all of this is on the child side of the timeline in which twinrova was never killed. In the child timeline, link goes of to Termina, and ganon is sent into the twilight realm by the sages (which are not gone at this point -- In the adult timeline, apparently these sages are killed because adult link has to awaken new sages.)

 

[MrMosley]

Actually, the split timeline can explain the fact that ganon is dead and that twinrova is alive. The oracles games take place after ALttP in which gannon was killed at the end, and all of this is on the child side of the timeline in which twinrova was never killed. In the child timeline, link goes of to Termina, and ganon is sent into the twilight realm by the sages (which are not gone at this point -- In the adult timeline, apparently these sages are killed because adult link has to awaken new sages.)

I'm talking about the Oracles taking place within the same timeline that Ocarina started though. A lof of people believe that Link returned to Hyrule from Termina because he is shown riding Epona, or some horse, there, when then he is called upon by the Triforce. In that case, Ganon would not have been killed off yet.

Theories like yours, saying that the Oracle games took place after ALttP, maybe that might be true...It makes good sense to me at least that its the answer to Ganon being dead...But the Oracle series, being made directly after Majora's Mask, and having Twin Rova in them, makes me believe that they were meant to connect to the timeline which Ocarina started.

 

[Brandon]

That's a good point. However, We find out in TP that Ganon is brought to trial and sent into the twilight realm on the child side of OoT. That means that when Link returns to Hyrule, Ganon is in the twilight realm. In that case Ganon was not dead, so the Oracles games cannot go here. I think that the inclusion of Twinrova in MM really does have to do with the fact that it was developed right after MM, but I think that the timeline still has to have the oracles games after ALttP to make sense. Also, We can be pretty sure that the Link in LA is the one from ALttP, and I have heard that the oracles games end with link sailing away on a boat much like the one in LA. (I have the oracles games, but haven't gotten to play throught them yet, so though I've heard how they end, I've not seen it yet. The boat might be in one of the individual endings rather than the joint ending)

 

[OCDays]

I dont see how Twilight Princess could be involved in any possible timeline, the layout of Hyrule is...different for sure but it does have similarities but besides that, Lon Lon Ranch doesnt appear in TP, and the Temple of Time is decrepit, the only time it might fit in would be way after OofT. Ganon was sealed in both OofT and before TP, but in different places and by different methods, I think that each game is pretty much separate, or so far apart timewise as not to bother.

That considered, we do know that Link, or some form of him, is reincarnated, so is Zelda, so why can't Ganon be brought back over time, it would help things out a whole lot, although if he was I can't see why he would need help to be revived, but it would explain why sages would want him sealed away, if he didn't die he wouldn't be able to be reincarnated.

Hmm... I don't think i really cleared anything up... but maybe some food for thought

 

[Skull_Kid]

I just hope when people will stop trying to figure out something that NINTENDO already stated that doesn't exist- a timeline for zelda!
maybe one day... but for now there's now concrete timeline?