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There will be NO female Link

Joined
Jun 14, 2016
The fact that female Link is such a taboo and apparently "toxic" idea really highlights peoples' inability to keep an open mind here on this thread. Even if female Link wouldn't make you relate to the character more, you don't know how someone else feels. It's why game developers make the M/F options available in the first place! Almost everyone here seems to think of it as destroying Link's character, his story, his entire series even. Has no one dared consider that a M/F option might actually add to the series? I will never see the supposed consequences of LoZ featuring such an inclusive option. And I refuse to believe that those supposed consequences would outweigh the good that comes from giving more players the chance to connect with a character. Lastly, I find it really entertaing to discover that although this is supposed to be a discussion thread, any idea that questions the status quo is immediately deemed toxic, pointless, and the work of social terrorists. Geez!
 

Lozjam

A Cool, Cool Mountain
Joined
May 24, 2015
The fact that female Link is such a taboo and apparently "toxic" idea really highlights peoples' inability to keep an open mind here on this thread. Even if female Link wouldn't make you relate to the character more, you don't know how someone else feels. It's why game developers make the M/F options available in the first place! Almost everyone here seems to think of it as destroying Link's character, his story, his entire series even. Has no one dared consider that a M/F option might actually add to the series? I will never see the supposed consequences of LoZ featuring such an inclusive option. And I refuse to believe that those supposed consequences would outweigh the good that comes from giving more players the chance to connect with a character. Lastly, I find it really entertaing to discover that although this is supposed to be a discussion thread, any idea that questions the status quo is immediately deemed toxic, pointless, and the work of social terrorists. Geez!
Let me ask you this.
What does having a female gender option add to the game? Like really. What does it add that makes Zelda more inclusive?
 

ZeldafreakCJM

Hey there, it's me.
Joined
Aug 7, 2010
Location
Uranus (it's dark here...)
Gender
Non-binary cookie sheet.
The fact that female Link is such a taboo and apparently "toxic" idea really highlights peoples' inability to keep an open mind here on this thread. Even if female Link wouldn't make you relate to the character more, you don't know how someone else feels. It's why game developers make the M/F options available in the first place! Almost everyone here seems to think of it as destroying Link's character, his story, his entire series even. Has no one dared consider that a M/F option might actually add to the series? I will never see the supposed consequences of LoZ featuring such an inclusive option. And I refuse to believe that those supposed consequences would outweigh the good that comes from giving more players the chance to connect with a character. Lastly, I find it really entertaing to discover that although this is supposed to be a discussion thread, any idea that questions the status quo is immediately deemed toxic, pointless, and the work of social terrorists. Geez!
Could I ask what the overall problem here is?

Clearly if Link is no longer nameable then that correlates with what I and others have said, in that he's not meant to represent the player in the way a traditional avatar does, so then what's the problem with there not being a fem Link option? Is there a problem when there's no fem Snake or fem Mario option? Or is it just bad to not have a playable fem character in any and all games?

I'm not trying to be mean, I just don't understand why this has ever been an issue. Especially more so when whatever it is that people are after can be done by making Zelda playable, as that is the simplest option
 
Joined
Jun 15, 2016
Location
Gurmaneh.
Legend of Zelda, like most video games, books, and media, is an escape to another world. And in the case of Link, it is the escape to the life of a character who is not you. When I first played OOT, I felt my heart melt as Link tore himself away from Saria for the first time. He didn't want to leave. It was that moment of empathy that made me want to fight FOR Link. If Link is replaced by a character creator, then I lose that. Link does have a character, and I love it to pieces.
First of all, thanks for reading my long, long ramblings.!

And yeah, that's why I'm really glad that Aonuma didn't even consider it - his first instinct was to use Zelda if the new game had to have a female protagonist, and rejected that idea because he understands what Link fundamentally is about and what his narrative function needs to be; he represents the Triforce of Courage, that is, his character is fundamentally about facing an unknown world, to leave your normal life behind and go on a journey to fix things when noone else will. Some people say it's a cop-out, but to me, it really shows that he thinks and cares about what these characters represent.

But then I read some posts in reaction to his statement on some other forum that basically went "OH SO ONLY A MALE CAN BE COURAGEOUS AOUNUMA YOU WOMAN-HATIN ****LORD", and I wept a little for humanity.
 
Joined
Jun 14, 2016
Let me ask you this.
What does having a female gender option add to the game? Like really. What does it add that makes Zelda more inclusive?
Okay! I love the LoZ franchise, and I'll play my favorites regardless of Link's canon gender. So when I say BoW featuring a M/F option would have been a good addition, I quite literally meant addition, considering the sheer amount of new features and mechanics they have already put in this game. When I say inclusive, I mean anybody would be able to pick up the game and have this simple, but powerful choice. If a girl or boy wanted to be female Link, they could do it! How exactly is that a bad thing? It makes a big difference to people who haven't had such a choice before, or didn't think they'd get one. Now, I have two questions for you, and anybody else. Several instances of M/F options exist across several major, successful franchises like Fallout 4, Pokemon, etc. Does their existence make those games any worse? Does it hurt the plot or the characters involved?
 

Lozjam

A Cool, Cool Mountain
Joined
May 24, 2015
Okay! I love the LoZ franchise, and I'll play my favorites regardless of Link's canon gender. So when I say BoW featuring a M/F option would have been a good addition, I quite literally meant addition, considering the sheer amount of new features and mechanics they have already put in this game. When I say inclusive, I mean anybody would be able to pick up the game and have this simple, but powerful choice. If a girl or boy wanted to be female Link, they could do it! How exactly is that a bad thing? It makes a big difference to people who haven't had such a choice before, or didn't think they'd get one. Now, I have two questions for you, and anybody else. Several instances of M/F options exist across several major, successful franchises like Fallout 4, Pokemon, etc. Does their existence make those games any worse? Does it hurt the plot or the characters involved?
Fallout 4, and Pokemon... Yes. it does.

Imagine Skyward Sword with a female Link. Yeah... That wouldn't work because a key part of the game's story is Link's Romantic attraction towards Zelda.

With Gender "options" you completely lose all romantic attraction in a game(in a meaningful way).
So many of the best videogame stories are about exactly this.
Imagine if Cloud Strife was a girl.
Yeah... Um.. Almost all of the humor of the game would be lost, and the meaningful crossdressing cloud scene would be lost as well. There would be no connection towards Aerith nor anything of the sort.

Shadow of the Colossus and Ico, both of which are art in it's pure definition, would be completely meaningless if Ico and Wander had "an option".

Metroid would again, be completely meaningless if you could choose to be Sam instead of Samus. The biggest thing about that game is that a female is a playable character and the connection between her and the Metroid(we are also disregarding MOM here too).

So yes. Since they are rolling out Link as an established character, it would damage a lot. So much of the nuance of the stories will be lost.
 
Joined
Jun 15, 2016
Location
Gurmaneh.
The fact that female Link is such a taboo and apparently "toxic" idea really highlights peoples' inability to keep an open mind here on this thread. Even if female Link wouldn't make you relate to the character more, you don't know how someone else feels. It's why game developers make the M/F options available in the first place! Almost everyone here seems to think of it as destroying Link's character, his story, his entire series even. Has no one dared consider that a M/F option might actually add to the series? I will never see the supposed consequences of LoZ featuring such an inclusive option. And I refuse to believe that those supposed consequences would outweigh the good that comes from giving more players the chance to connect with a character. Lastly, I find it really entertaing to discover that although this is supposed to be a discussion thread, any idea that questions the status quo is immediately deemed toxic, pointless, and the work of social terrorists. Geez!
The problem with this inclusive option, however, is that it excludes further organic growth for the good ol' fairy boy as an established character that has been the centerpiece of the series as we know and like it. And it's not like this is about inclusiveness or exclusiveness, it's about creative integrity. I mean, you don't really see Homer in the middle of his tale going: "Hey ladies, I know that Odysseus guy is kind of a scruffy bearded macho dude, so let's say from now on he's also an Amazon queen plz buy some copies". (And yes, I'm fully aware that Zelda is not exactly the Odyssey, but bear with me, okay?)

And that's because it would run contrary to everything that has been established about the character so far; it destroys his identity, of which masculinity has of course been a part. If Aounuma did that, he could no longer work with a clearly defined character, and would have to restrict himself creatively to a rather non-descript, "flattened" narrative; the hints of a blossoming romance between Link and Zelda (which I, in my endless naivité, actually found kinda cute), for example, would have to go out of the window... unless he also makes both female Link and Zelda lesbians.

Which would be fine with me, though I'd have to comment that at that point, we'd have unecessarily altered two established characters. (And what about heterosexual representation? Do we need four options now, based on gender and sexuality?)

And for what? For pandering. Because that's what it's called when you throw your established creative vision over board, not because some story-internal necessities or becauses it enriches and improves what you originally had in mind, but simply in order to widen your consumer base.

Now, I don't want to be rude, but if there's a person who really, really, really can't look past the fact that Link has a dong, if that person really can't "relate" to someone (or empathize with, or appreciate on a narrative level) someone who hasn't got the same set of chromosomes, and if that fact excludes that person from enjoying the game, welp, then maybe this story isn't their cup of tea. Because, in my mind, it's no problem when a story excludes those that just don't like it.

(By the way, I find Dostoyevsky's Crime and Punishment terribly boring and lacking in chainsaw-wielding Grizzly Bears. So exclusive. Publishers should really go for the inclusive option and give me a furry, blood-soaked splatterfest in future editions. That woud sell some copies!)
 
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Zorth

#Scoundrel
Joined
Apr 22, 2011
1. At one point yes, recently, like as far back as maybe OOT, not anymore, especially since there's apparently no longer the option to rename him making him literally just a silent character.
Great, what we can gather from this is that you exaggerated in that original post that Link has always been viewed as a character by everyone. And can agree on that at this point in time, Link is still a blank slate that never talks, but at least his name is constant.

Although will have to disagree with you on one thing. A character that never talks, hardly shows emotion, has no canonical backstory, and changes age/appearance throughout games, can actually be called a character.

Plus, what's the damn point? Assuming you can't name him, why would you even want the option to make him more like you when he obviously isn't you?
It boils down to freedom to do what you want.

The reason for it is pretty much because there is no logical reason not to, which I'm trying to prove to you guys. No matter how much you tell yourself it will, having the option to play as the other gender really does not in anyway affect your playthrough or the lore. So based on that assumption, it is really immature to keep a certain number of potential gamers/customers/fans alienated just because... reasons

And your other point, it doesn't either have to do with trying to make the character like you. It can be just basic relatability (guys chosing male gender, girls chosing female gender) to complete arbitrary customization. Like a guy choosing female, wearing a pink tunic 24/7 and naming the character Cosmo.

Yes it does. In our society, males and females are different, and their characterization is different. Do you think it would be as oppropriate in say, Final Fantasy X, where I can name my character whatever the hell I want, if Tidus were a girl? No, it would be weird.
Not sure if I understood what you meant there at all, maybe because I've never played FF. Gonna have to rephrase that for me, sorry lol

.. because more people are either neutral or against Fem!Link as opposed to wanting it.
Based on solid undisputable facts?

Now I'm speculating just as much as you here but isn't it far more likely to believe that in actuality a vast majority of the fanbase will buy the game either way? I mean, are you actually going to boycott the next Zelda title if there is a gender choice? While on the other hand, a great deal more people who have never played Zelda could get interested if there is an option to play female?

10/10 for that insightful comment

It is not about customization, and it never has been. It isn't about inclusiveness, and it never has been. It's about a character that is and has always been canonically male and
Don't think anybody is interested in changing the story canon, just having the freedom of choice when it comes to something that is irrelevant to a story. But according to you it seems that males & females are so incredible different from each other that they will actually react/behave in a different way when faced with the same situation.... sounds just a little bit like you have a prejudice towards people based on their gender?

turning him female to appease a bunch of social terrorists.
Wow, now we went from having the OPTION of having a female Link to actually making him a female and we went from Zelda fans wanting freedom of choice to social terrorists.


Wider? By how much? 15 people? Also, females can still play this game. They always have, and they always will be able to. Making Link female does not open it up to more people that were some how unable to play the game with a male Link.
Everybody can play the game, but does everybody play the game ?
No, maybe at least a little bit more people would get interested if there was an option for other gender.


...who make up a small fraction of dedicated gamers. And I guarantee you making Link female wouldn't attract millions of female gamers.
You can't guarantee anything anymore than I can. What you can do though is try to explain why you think that a game that has a main character that females can relate to, wouldn't increase sales at all.

It is. Pandering to a bunch of morons who wouldn't get this game even if there were an option is smart business. The world would be a better place without SJWs and their toxicity.
"It is not. Pandering to a bunch of morons who would get this game even if there was an option is not a smart business. The world would be a better place without offended nerds and their ignorance"

Something anybody could've replied. You really aren't convincing anybody but yourself with responses purely based off emotion.

I've said it before, and I'll repeat. Link is male. Zelda is female. I don't hear any of you so-called champions of justice and equality saying "You know, it really is time we have a female Zelda. Yeah, Zeldo would be a great addition to the game lore."
Because one is a main character than you play with the entire game and the other one is a side character. And yet again, you assume this somehow will affect the canonical lore.

Just because you can name your game file doesn't mean Link isn't still Link. Link has always been Link. He has been called Link from the start. He is male.
3rd time now you assume there is a conspiracy to change male link permanently to female Link, for everyone.

You can name Ness, but Ness is still male. You can name Paula but Paula is still female. This entire argument is founded upon an incredible lack of logic and understanding, and entirely on feelings, which always makes a bad argument.
Incredible irony seeing as how you had a mini-rant on SJWs, champions of justice, and morons, that want to take away male Link from you.

Let's try this; You prove with reason and logic how a canonical story, that never changes, can be changed/affected by implementing an OPTION for gender swap for the main character.
 

Zorth

#Scoundrel
Joined
Apr 22, 2011
Fallout 4, and Pokemon... Yes. it does.

Imagine Skyward Sword with a female Link. Yeah... That wouldn't work because a key part of the game's story is Link's Romantic attraction towards Zelda.

With Gender "options" you completely lose all romantic attraction in a game(in a meaningful way).
So many of the best videogame stories are about exactly this.
Imagine if Cloud Strife was a girl.
Yeah... Um.. Almost all of the humor of the game would be lost, and the meaningful crossdressing cloud scene would be lost as well. There would be no connection towards Aerith nor anything of the sort.

Shadow of the Colossus and Ico, both of which are art in it's pure definition, would be completely meaningless if Ico and Wander had "an option".

Metroid would again, be completely meaningless if you could choose to be Sam instead of Samus. The biggest thing about that game is that a female is a playable character and the connection between her and the Metroid(we are also disregarding MOM here too).

So yes. Since they are rolling out Link as an established character, it would damage a lot. So much of the nuance of the stories will be lost.
Yes maybe if you are homophobic you would hate girl Link falling in love with girl Zelda, but even if 99% of zelda fans hated same sex relations this could still be fixed by swapping the love interests gender. Or is this waaay too many gender swaps now? Are we stepping out of line by swapping genders EVERYWHERE ?
 
Joined
Nov 14, 2015
Yes maybe if you are homophobic you would hate girl Link falling in love with girl Zelda, but even if 99% of zelda fans hated same sex relations this could still be fixed by swapping the love interests gender. Or is this waaay too many gender swaps now? Are we stepping out of line by swapping genders EVERYWHERE ?
How about we don't swap genders at all because the character is ****ing fine as it is



Oh wait no that's too logical the SJWs would never want that
 
Yes maybe if you are homophobic you would hate girl Link falling in love with girl Zelda, but even if 99% of zelda fans hated same sex relations this could still be fixed by swapping the love interests gender. Or is this waaay too many gender swaps now? Are we stepping out of line by swapping genders EVERYWHERE ?
What if 99.9% fans opposed to all this homosexual/genderbending/etc. SJW nonsense infiltrating Zelda too? And seriously, why do you want Fem!Link so much?
 

Zorth

#Scoundrel
Joined
Apr 22, 2011
How about we don't swap genders at all because the character is ****ing fine as it is



Oh wait no that's too logical the SJWs would never want that
Still not asking for a complete gender swap, just an option for one. Still not helping anyone's point to get emotional about this.

What if 99.9% fans opposed to all this homosexual/genderbending/etc. SJW nonsense infiltrating Zelda too? And seriously, why do you want Fem!Link so much?
Something tells me that me telling you what my thoughts are on people who oppose homosexuals will not help this discussion at all.

And why people want fem Link so much? Nobody wants it that much as you think you do, in this thread alone there seems to be just 2 people who are challenging your views on this topic. Far more people strong conservative views and keeping things as they are.

I've laid out my main points pretty clearly on why I don't see an option for a female Link as an issue, and will gladly lay them out for you once again if you want.
 
Joined
Jun 14, 2016
Fallout 4, and Pokemon... Yes. it does.

Imagine Skyward Sword with a female Link. Yeah... That wouldn't work because a key part of the game's story is Link's Romantic attraction towards Zelda.

With Gender "options" you completely lose all romantic attraction in a game(in a meaningful way).
So many of the best videogame stories are about exactly this.
Imagine if Cloud Strife was a girl.
Yeah... Um.. Almost all of the humor of the game would be lost, and the meaningful crossdressing cloud scene would be lost as well. There would be no connection towards Aerith nor anything of the sort.

Shadow of the Colossus and Ico, both of which are art in it's pure definition, would be completely meaningless if Ico and Wander had "an option".

Metroid would again, be completely meaningless if you could choose to be Sam instead of Samus. The biggest thing about that game is that a female is a playable character and the connection between her and the Metroid(we are also disregarding MOM here too).

So yes. Since they are rolling out Link as an established character, it would damage a lot. So much of the nuance of the stories will be lost.
I think I said this before, but in the case of love interests, there are several creative solutions to explore. In SS (and other romantically charged LoZ titles), flip Zelda's gender. Or God forbid, just leave the two characters as girls and see what happens. It honestly depends on what you define as "meaningful" romantic attraction, and I'm pretty sure there is no wrong or right definition of that.
I don't want to dismiss the rest your argument, but I wanted to know what you thought about franchises that actually have the M/F option - if having that option left a negative impact on those games and why.
Metroid, Shadow of the Colossus, and FF don't have that option due to the nature of their characters. The point I was trying to make was that a M/F option in future LoZ titles wouldn't necessarily have a bad impact on story or characters, considering games like Fallout 4 and Pokemon have M/F options that don't effect the game play but still show consideration to any player who'd want something like that.

ZeldaFreakCJM, I understand that if you can't name Link in BoW - if he is in fact a stand alone character - then it would be pointless to dispute it. Do I hope he's not a stand alone character? Yeah! But that's Nintendo's prerogative if they want to change him like that.
As I said earlier, it'd be as pointless as wanting a male Lara Croft (Cloud Strife and Samus counts as one of these characters too) - I don't have a problem with no fem Mario or Snake or whatever. Although I wish there were more female protagonists in video games, or at least more M/F options available, I'm not suggesting that gender bending existing characters is a smart thing to do. Let's face it, female Mario would be...a little...odd.

My problem is that Link seemed more like an avatar (read: different from Samus, Cloud, Mario, you name it) in previous games, which was why I wished a female option could be made available for BoW. Some players think sharing the same gender is a fun way to relate to video game characters - and some don't. I chose to throw my two cents into this thread after seeing the straight up hatred for a fem Link -- which I still can't believe -- but that's fine. The point of a forum is to discuss and I got exactly what I came for.
 
Still not asking for a complete gender swap, just an option for one. Still not helping anyone's point to get emotional about this.



Something tells me that me telling you what my thoughts are on people who oppose homosexuals will not help this discussion at all.

And why people want fem Link so much? Nobody wants it that much as you think you do, in this thread alone there seems to be just 2 people who are challenging your views on this topic. Far more people strong conservative views and keeping things as they are.

I've laid out my main points pretty clearly on why I don't see an option for a female Link as an issue, and will gladly lay them out for you once again if you want.
I didn't ask why people want it so much(as I have seen much otherwise), I asked why you want it so much. Clearly you don't just think it won't be an issue, no, you seem to crave it or something. And I'd like to know your reasoning on why it's such a big deal.
 

Zorth

#Scoundrel
Joined
Apr 22, 2011
I didn't ask why people want it so much(as I have seen much otherwise), I asked why you want it so much. Clearly you don't just think it won't be an issue, no, you seem to crave it or something. And I'd like to know your reasoning on why it's such a big deal.
Then I'll make it clear here; I really don't care if there is an option or not, personally.

But I do not agree that having one can affect the story/lore/game/franchise, let alone ruin it.

Not trying to come off as the notorious SJW person that has been discussed in here hehe
 

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