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General Zelda The Zelda Story - Is It Too Happy?

DarkestLink

Darkest of all Dark Links
Joined
Oct 28, 2012
If you pay attention it's pretty obvious half the populace is morbidly depressed and the other half is in anxious denial..

You say this but fail to present any examples. I didn't see anybody in "anxious denial". The only one denying that it was going to come down was Mutoh, but there was nothing anxious about it. He seemed dead serious.
 

Sir Quaffler

May we meet again
I don't think it's too happy. On the surface it's a fairly happy-looking franchise, but there's a lot of dark themes presented throughout the game that change how the player perceives such games. I do think they need to put a little more attention into some of the details so the games are internally consistent, but other than that I like how Nintendo handles the stories of the games, and they're improving it as of late as well.

I don't want the series to go into the dark, grim, & gritty that seemingly every other franchise (non-Nintendo) seems to go into these days. It's boring to me. It's just darkness all the time, where's the fun in that? While I do think some games actually use this darkness to present a powerful message (Spec Ops: The Line, The Walking Dead, etc.), most just use it as a means to appeal to a certain demographic. Like, they're just slapping it onto their game without really giving any thought as to how it affects the end message to the players.
 

Satsy

~~SaturnStorm
Joined
Aug 24, 2010
Location
Somewhere small
I wouldn't have called the series 'too happy', it's not like a Mario game. It's just not Bioshock, either.

The first of the sillier bits came in around LttP, with the cartoon-style drop of the guards, and the humility of becoming, of all things, a pink little bunny rabbit in the Dark World. Did this take away from the tone of the game? Not really. Girls are still being kidnapped left and right, and folks are dying or dead as a result of Agahnim/Gannon's actions. Frankly it's nice to have the game not take itself so seriously all the time.

The tone the games all carry seem to try to straddle that line between silly and serious, and perhaps some pull it off better than others. But so long as characters are still killed and Link still faces the gravity of having to prevent the destruction of his home and Country/Island, then I'm not gonna consider them 'too happy'. I also won't consider them 'too serious'.

If I'm gonna have complaints, it's certainly not with the tone the games set. ;)
 
Joined
Aug 25, 2012
Location
Indiana, USA
Which, of course, you won't name....:dry:

I get this feeling you're one of those people who doesn't like to replay games that much.

I know I'm jumping into the conversation here, but I believe I can give you some of the details you desire. It's true that not every character is morbidly depressed on the outside, but almost all of them are on the inside. When you go into a public school, not everyone you meet is going to be crying, throwing a fit, or screaming, but many of them still suffer inside. This same realism is carried out in a thoughtful way in Majora's Mask. You could almost consider it an artistic style; how does a peaceful, happy population respond to terrible suffering and death?

As for the characters you wanted to know about:

Anju is disdained by her grandmother in spite of trying to be helpful, cries in one scene from missing her fiance, and, in one possible ending, blatantly ignores her mother's wishes to hide and waits for her fiance to return in the Stockpot Inn...as the moon is minutes away from destroying all life in Termina.

Deku Butler is implied to have a son that went missing and looks just like Link's Deku form. At the end of the game, he appears to have found his son in the woods, dead and locked in rigor mortis. Further speculation could lead us to believe Skull Kid murdered him and cast his appearance upon Link early in the game.

Kafei was cursed into child form days away from his wedding and will stop at nothing to break the curse and reunite with his fiancee Anju. His unfaltering seriousness and devotion to his lover are notable.

The Postman is comically loyal to his job...so much so that he is torn whether or not to flee Clock Town, even when the moon is crashing down upon him and he clutches his head in his hands behind the office.

Mutoh has essentially given up on life and initially tries to deny Termina's impending doom, then resigns himself to his fate and curses the moon as the last man standing in Clock Town.

Romani is a sweet, innocent little girl who just happens to have the capacity to wind up brain-damaged from an alien invasion, breaking her disbelieving older sister's heart.

Cremia inherited the ranch from her dead parents and, depending on your actions with Romani, either has to put up with greedy bandits trying to steal her cow's milk (as the world is close to ending, no less) or mourning Romani's alteration from alien experimentation.

Skull Kid is an unfortunate victim of the whole disaster. Starting as a lonely child who met two fairy friends, his mischief cost him dearly as he stole Majora's Mask and wound up under its evil influence. So not only is this a case of an innocent child being taken advantage of and forced to do things he'll regret, but the reason he's lonely in the first place is because he perceives the Four Giants as having abandoned him.

Mikau tried to prove his love and loyalty to a fellow band member by rescuing her kidnapped children (still in eggs), but wound up getting killed instead, his power transferred to Link after playing the Song of Healing.

The Moon Children appear in the most beautifully trippy area of the game and question your personal beliefs and convictions while asking you to give up the masks you've worked so hard for.

And really I could go on and on, but underneath the supposed happiness is clearly turmoil, depression, hate, angst, and sadness. Not to mention after making all that progress and helping all these people and getting to know them, failing to stop the moon means you're forced to watch as it utterly destroys your friends and progress. As I said once, Majora's Mask is a deep game because players prompt themselves to reconsider their beliefs and actions, not the game. If you can't see past the first layer, Majora's Mask loses much of its thought-provoking charm. Part of this charm actually comes from the distinction between the apparent lightheartedness on the surface and the deeper, darker issues underneath. If it was just one or the other, it wouldn't have been nearly as effective, but the contrast makes them both stand out.
 

DarkestLink

Darkest of all Dark Links
Joined
Oct 28, 2012
Anju is disdained by her grandmother in spite of trying to be helpful, cries in one scene from missing her fiance, and, in one possible ending, blatantly ignores her mother's wishes to hide and waits for her fiance to return in the Stockpot Inn...as the moon is minutes away from destroying all life in Termina.

That's only if you brought the pendant. And yes, there is one scene where she cries...but it does nothing to the overall mood of the game. Why? Because it's so hidden and so isolated from everything else. Chances are, I won't even see it on this playthrough.

Deku Butler is implied to have a son that went missing and looks just like Link's Deku form. At the end of the game, he appears to have found his son in the woods, dead and locked in rigor mortis. Further speculation could lead us to believe Skull Kid murdered him and cast his appearance upon Link early in the game.

I agree...and I wish the ending had been more like this. It should have been more like this. But, again, it's an isolated scene. It's not like Majora's Mask has no sad or dark points in the game, but it's not the overall mood. This was the only person who didn't get a happy ending and it's also the only person we didn't even meet. So my care for this moment is low.

Kafei was cursed into child form days away from his wedding and will stop at nothing to break the curse and reunite with his fiancee Anju. His unfaltering seriousness and devotion to his lover are notable.

...Uhhhh...why? How is this a sad theme? He's a determined character, yes, but that's hardly sad seeing how it all worked out for him when it shouldn't have. What annoys me most is that this could have truly been a real sad moment like when Midna left or Rutela was killed...but it's solved for no good reason.

The Postman is comically loyal to his job...so much so that he is torn whether or not to flee Clock Town, even when the moon is crashing down upon him and he clutches his head in his hands behind the office.

And yes, this was a sad moment. MM did have sad moments. All Zelda games do. But this wasn't the overall feel or atmosphere in the game. The real problem for me is that while MM did have its sad moments....it did away with most of them. The Postman should still be tied to his schedule in the end, he shouldn't have grown into a free man. Link didn't help him.

Mutoh has essentially given up on life and initially tries to deny Termina's impending doom, then resigns himself to his fate and curses the moon as the last man standing in Clock Town.

Given up on life? Not really...he just didn't believe the moon was going to fall. That's like telling an Atheist they've given up on the afterlife and have resigned themselves to hell. They aren't in denial. They just don't believe in it. Plenty of people in Majora's Mask didn't believe it. Look at the bombers kids. None of them cared. Several shop owners didn't seem concerned. The banker thought it was silly.

Romani is a sweet, innocent little girl who just happens to have the capacity to wind up brain-damaged from an alien invasion, breaking her disbelieving older sister's heart.

Well...that should have happened. But instead, she magically beats the aliens without help and gets her sister's support. Again, this is what I mean by doing away with the sad moments. OoT didn't magically revive everyone who had been killed in Hyrule. TP didn't have Link find a way to see Midna again or bring the killed Twili back to life. Ralis is still stuck as the orphaned prince of his people and is seen depressed over his Mother's death. Kakariko is still pretty much destroyed and so is Castle Town in OoT.

Cremia inherited the ranch from her dead parents and, depending on your actions with Romani, either has to put up with greedy bandits trying to steal her cow's milk (as the world is close to ending, no less) or mourning Romani's alteration from alien experimentation.

Actually, regardless of your actions, everything goes smoothly for her. Link does nothing to help them and they're still fine in the end.

Skull Kid is an unfortunate victim of the whole disaster. Starting as a lonely child who met two fairy friends, his mischief cost him dearly as he stole Majora's Mask and wound up under its evil influence. So not only is this a case of an innocent child being taken advantage of and forced to do things he'll regret, but the reason he's lonely in the first place is because he perceives the Four Giants as having abandoned him.

Yes...but I feel this could have been done better. This was the main story and yet it had almost no focus at all. You don't see him again until after four dungeons (90% of the game).

The Moon Children appear in the most beautifully trippy area of the game and question your personal beliefs and convictions while asking you to give up the masks you've worked so hard for.

OK...but how is this sad?

And really I could go on and on, but underneath the supposed happiness is clearly turmoil, depression, hate, angst, and sadness.

Yes, but it's so remote and isolated, not to mention almost always done away with, that it hardly effects the mood of the game. Now if it REMAINED bad, then yeah, it would have meant something. But nope, it becomes fine and dandy for no reason.

As I said once, Majora's Mask is a deep game because players prompt themselves to reconsider their beliefs and actions, not the game.

Where? Where does the game make you challenge your beliefs? I feel like the game could have done this if it wanted to...but it seems to have gone out of its way to avoid it. Mostly because of the poorly written ending. It would have been interesting if you're left doubting your actions and their worth with everyone's lives being ruined by the problems in game...but Majora's Mask completely ruins this and goes out of its way to solve everyone's problems when this shouldn't be the case. In fact, it's psychically impossible to have helped everyone in game because some, (like helping the Bomb Shop lady and Kafei) can't both be done....but they somehow both get their happy ending away.

But seriously, thanks for contributing. However, what I was really asking about was this "suicide" that was mentioned.
 

Kirino

Tatakae
Joined
Jun 19, 2010
Location
USA
Well...that COULD have happened...but nah. Instead she magically prevails and convinces her sister to support her efforts. She should be mentally screwed up, but Nintendo decided even though Link didn't help her, she succeeded anyway and got a happy ending.

Actually, if you fail to protect the ranch from them, she and the cows get kidnapped. If you return on the 3rd day (or night I don't remember) you see her all mentally screwed.

[video=youtube_share;2O7efpJMPhQ]http://youtu.be/2O7efpJMPhQ[/video]

Uh huh...I've been MM loads of times. Never saw it. Who and where is this person?

Sorry, I misremembered.
 

Savski

HEY! LISTEN!
Joined
Dec 29, 2012
Location
a box >.>
Yeah Zelda has some somewhat happier moments and much more lighter story lines but also some of the games have a dark aura. MM was probably one of the darkest in my opinion, it was sad but also had a good story. I mean its skull kid being used as a puppet by some evil mask. If you think about that and some of the characters personal stories you can see why it is so dark. The art featured in TP gave off the dark and depressing Aura and it edged along the dark and creepy side also. Even though SS had some pretty watercolor based art it still was not all that happy. I think I almost cried when Zelda got locked in the crystal but thats just me. Yeah they mostly all have happy endings but that dosnt mean they are all happy all around.
 

ihateghirahim

The Fierce Deity
Joined
Jan 16, 2013
Location
Inside the Moon
All Zelda games have dark moments. That's what separate from Mario. I really do think we need a game with a bittersweet ending, or even a bad ending that sets up another game. Only in MM do we get a really dark overtone. (i don't know why people say TP is anywhere near that dark). The games usually have some serious moments, but they are primarily happy, and they all end happy. I just want something dark like MM to break this cycle. We need to take another turn in Zelda, something to attract people who think it looks childish.
 
Joined
Aug 25, 2012
Location
Indiana, USA
Where? Where does the game make you challenge your beliefs?

My point was actually that the game DOESN'T challenge your beliefs. You do. Or rather, most of us did. The game doesn't force you to stop and acknowledge what's going on, but a curious player immersed in the game usually can't help but wonder what this newfound life is like for these people.

I feel like the game could have done this if it wanted to...but it seems to have gone out of its way to avoid it. Mostly because of the poorly written ending. It would have been interesting if you're left doubting your actions and their worth with everyone's lives being ruined by the problems in game...but Majora's Mask completely ruins this and goes out of its way to solve everyone's problems when this shouldn't be the case. In fact, it's psychically impossible to have helped everyone in game because some, (like helping the Bomb Shop lady and Kafei) can't both be done....but they somehow both get their happy ending away.

Ah, so it's the ending you're referring to. True, it could have been done better, but it was meant to convey that (almost) everyone is doing better because of Link. Yeah, it's basically impossible to help everyone within a single three-day period, but the game asks you to take this with a grain of salt and see what could have been. Perhaps that's more the point: showing you how everyone's lives could be made better by Link, not guaranteeing they wind up that way. The ending could have been done better, I suppose, but considering the whole game invokes player-induced philosophy, it's effective.

I think you're also partly misunderstanding the entire point of the game. By Axle's definition (and it makes sense), Majora's Mask is not a "dark" game. Therefore, it does not "need" to stay morbid and depressing all throughout. I think "haunting" is a better word - not as in scary, but as in something that sticks with you and causes you to think. Zelda's always been more about the light shining through the darkness than the darkness itself, an approach which separates itself from a lot of other franchises. Majora's Mask can be considered a sad game because you're laden with hopelessness and guilt at first, but then you push on in spite of that and emerge victorious, banishing the sadness in the process. Majora's Mask shouldn't automatically be labeled a "sad" or "dark" game, but that doesn't mean it's not sadder or darker than many other games around and especially within the Zelda series.

So in summary, the ending does what it needs to, fitting in with the rest of the game's philosophical side, and Majora's Mask takes its own approach over striving to be sad or dark. It's a game designed to make you think, not to despair for the entirety of the adventure.

Oh yes, in regard to Mutoh's thoughts about the moon, I'm still more inclined to think it was denial. When the world is apparently going to end soon, somebody's going to question it because they don't want it to be true. Mutoh insists for most of the game that the moon won't kill anyone, but on the night of the final day, he can be found in Clock Town, essentially daring the moon to hit the earth ("If you're going to fall, then what's stoppin' ya, you monster?!"). I can't prove it, but this comes off to me as denial. I guess it could just as easily come off as unbelief to you, but it feels like denial to me.
 

Ventus

Mad haters lmao
Joined
May 26, 2010
Location
Akkala
Gender
Hylian Champion
Happy...
At the end of WW you both sank the kingdom of Hyrule and condemned the King of Red Lions to death. Just saying.

We didn't sink Hyrule; Daphnes did. If I recall correctly, he was the one who wished for Hyrule to sink beneath the waves. ;)
 

Xinnamin

Mrs. Austin
Joined
Dec 6, 2009
Location
clustercereal
We didn't sink Hyrule; Daphnes did. If I recall correctly, he was the one who wished for Hyrule to sink beneath the waves. ;)
Doesn't that make it even more sad though? We couldn't do anything to stop it, it was a tragedy completely out of our control. People always say WW seems so happy because of its graphical style but the story is really expressively depressing when you get to the core of it.
 

Random Person

Just Some Random Person
Joined
Feb 6, 2010
Location
Wig-Or-Log
Doesn't that make it even more sad though? We couldn't do anything to stop it, it was a tragedy completely out of our control. People always say WW seems so happy because of its graphical style but the story is really expressively depressing when you get to the core of it.

Well I don't know about what this "people" says, but imo, the graphic style is only part of what makes WW seems so happy. The atmosphere of the game alone just makes doom and gloom seem so far away. Even when you're doing epic adventuring things, it feels as though you're on the lighthearted side of the fantasy genre. Take sneaking in the forsaken fortress for example. Here Link is trying to get into the place that the ultimate evil reigns in order to rescue his kidnapped sister (a serious situation indeed) and yet his biggest threats are moronic moblins, annoying imp... things, and fall asleep on the job bokoblins. While there may be sad and/or serious events happening in WW, in general it's still a happy game, or as I like to call it, "light-hearted." Not saying it's a bad thing, especially for WW as I loved that it went that route. But still, it did go that route.
 
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