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The Temple of Time and Its Different Locations...

Cfrock

Keep it strong
Joined
Mar 17, 2012
Location
Liverpool, England
TP's entire castle town has a moat just like OoT's. Not every little detail is going to be the same. This is a game, not the real world. The developers don't really care that much for symmetry between the two titles. That's why the entrance to Zora's domain is found north rather than east.

This is a point you mention many times here and I want to address it right away. Ocarina of Time's Town does not have a moat surrounding it. Look at the map. It shows that a tributary of the Zora's River flows past the entrance. It does not encircle the entire town. The tributary isn't even man made, it is a natural course taken by the river. That means the Hylians did not purposefully redirect the flow of water towards the town. I don't think it is acurate to describe the river in Ocarina of Time as a moat.

TP's castle is built as a huge circular structure, OoT's is a conventional castle, fact is, they are more similarities between TP's castle town and ST's castle town than between TP's castle town and OoT's castle town

Are you saying that Ocarina of Time and Twilight Princess's Towns show differences? Earlier you claimed they "have the same design."

It wasn't. I know that for fact. How do I know that for fact? Because the game didn't blatantly say it. And that's all you can rely on with the Zelda series. Zelda isn't complex enough for the idea of Castle Town to slide without clear spoken hints or confirmation in game. The developers don't place stuff like that for you to figure out. Everything is either spelled out for you or extremely hinted by in-game dialogue.

This is the part which confuses me the most. Here, you say that you know "for a fact" that the Temple of Time was not moved. Yet, you also state that the Town surrounding the Temple did not move either. I don't understand how this can be the case. Whichever way we go, one of them must have moved at some point. Now, I see from reading the rest of your post that you believe the Temple of Time that was found in Skyward Sword to be the one in Ocarina of Time. That is confirmed to not be true.

The only enterance to the Temple of Light, which is in the Holy Land. In ancient times, there was a temple which had the same name; but the location in which Rauru built the temple was where the temple of the seal was thought to be.
- Page 77 of Hyrule Historia​

This confirms that the open Temple of Time found in Skyward Sword, the one where Impa destroyed the Gate of Time, is not the Temple of Time found throughout the rest of the series. The only connection is by name, outside that, the Temple found in Lanayru Province has no significance and is never seen again.

I can buy Ordon not being a part of Hyrule, but if you click your in-game map for the Lanayru province, the desert is clearly included.

If you click the map you will find that Lanyaru does not include the Gerudo Desert. The Desert is it's own portion of the map. You can go check if you like. This is true on both GCN and Wii versions of the game. It also fits with in-game quotes, specifically this one: "[Ganondorf] was the leader of a band of thieves who invaded Hyrule in the hopes of establishing dominion over the Sacred Realm." If the Gerudo Desert was a part of Hyrule then Ganondorf and his thieves would not have been able to "invade". It would have been a civil war, not an invasion.

The Gerudo Desert in Twilight Princess is not part of Lanayru Province.

Exactly the same in TP, but the dirt path is smaller.

There is no dirt path in Twilight Princess. The Castle is connected to Town by a stone street with buildings on either side leading to a grand gateway. The Castle approaches are completely different in both games.

That's part of the Castle Town. OoT didn't have the power to make something so big.

The Market is not just one part of the Town, it is the whole Town. We know this becaus it is described both in-game and on the official map as simply "The Market". It is not a case of them being limited by technology, since they Market was presented as pre-rendered backgrounds. They could easily have used many more to make a larger location. The Market is all there is to it besides that one alleyway.

Again, this is a game. Not the real world. Tiny little differences like these aren't because the game developers wanted us to realize they had moved towns. It's because the game developers are human and are under the belief that continuity and story really isn't that important and that gameplay is. Fact is, making a replica of OoT's castle town would have been far too tiny and below what TP could achieve. They'd only only be hurting themselves.

I wouldn't describe the differences as "Tiny little" ones. The Castles are entirely different, as are the Towns. Even if we did say the Towns were the same, it would still be clear that the Town expanded at least between games. They are completely different. I also don't think everything can just be put down to 'the developers needed a bigger place because the console had more power'. They clearly pay attention to some degree of continuity in a large number of other areas, so why would they totally ignore it elsewhere? Just because we aren't explicitly shown a part of the story doesn't mean nothing happened.

In the adult timeline...

It's unfair to take issue with half a sentence, especially when the rest of the sentence address this specific concern. Please read the whole thing to get the conext before presenting it as a fault in my logic.

If this was the case, they would be in Kakariko. Also, this is Zelda, not real world history. If it happened, we would have gotten a clear in-game say so that it did.

Why would they be in Kakariko? Because they moved there in Ocarina of Time? Yes, that makes sense. What doesn't make sense is the Hylians saying 'Well, that's that then. Better get used to life in the village.' I agree that people would have fled to Kakariko for safety but once Ganondorf was executed it makes sense that they would build a new city (or restore the old one). Factor in the evident population increase and you have another reason why Kakariko couldn't have remained a permanent settlement for the entire Hylian population of Hyrule.

...At best it moved a couple of feet north.

And a few hundred feet west. Look at the maps again and take note of the distance between the two locations in Twilight Princess compared to their close proximity in Ocarina of Time.

They're both surrounded by moats. From there, it's green grassland infested by monsters.

Ocarina of Time does not feature a moat and it is walled in on the east and west by high cliffs. Look at the map. Look at it in-game. Castle Town in Twilight Princess has open grassland on all sides, Ocarina of Time's Market does not.

Because it had no purpose in TP.

The Temple of Time had a pretty significant purpose in Twilight Princess.

Even if I accepted that the Castle Town moved, there's no way it was ever in the Faron province. I could buy Eldin province it's close to Death Mountain, but it's as far away from faron province as humanly possible. The Faron province is in a forest in the south eastern area (Kokori Forest, Lost Woods, Sacred Grove). The Castle Town is slightly west and as far north as the map will allow.

All I can say is what I have said before. We do not know the boundaries of Faron Province during Ocarina of Time and the Provinces we do know the boundaries of throughout the series change their landscape and geographical features enough for the mere presence of a forest to not be confirmation of which Province is where.

In Twilight Princess, Castle Town is actually closer to Faron Province that it is to Death Mountain. In Twilight Princess, the actual Faron Woods are directly south of the Castle, not south east, and the Sacred Grove is over to the west. Check the map to see for yourself. If the Town did not move, then the forest must have for this to be the case.

Sealed Temple.

I honestly do not know what you mean by this. I had established earlier in my post that the Sealed Temple is what becomes the Temple of Time that Rauru built. This means that, since the Sealed Temple was at the centre of the world, the Temple of Time Rauru built is also at the centre of the world. So the sentence you quoted follows a logical progression. I do not understand your issue with it.

Follow the moat in OoT's castle town and tell me where it leads you.

What moat? I can follow the tributary that passes in front of the Market back to the Zora's River via a natural course but there is no moat to follow. The crucial difference here is that in Ocarina of Time the river naturally flows past the Market while in Twilight Princess it had to be manipulated. This would be unecessary if the two Towns were one and the same.

You give Zelda's story and continuity too much credit.

I personally feel you give it too little. To each his own, I suppose.

It wasn't moved (though that does sound more reasonable). There's just two Temple of Times. And the one in the Lanayru region is easier to access and in the right province of the CONFIRMED castle town.

Again, Hyrule Historia does confirm that the Temple of Time in Skyward Sword's Lanayru Province is not seen again and has no connection with the Temple built by Rauru beyond sharing the same name.
 

felipe970421

Mardek Innanu El-Enkidu
Joined
Feb 21, 2012
Location
Colombia
Darn it Cfrock, can you leave some some points for me to refute? :P

Thing is, the Sealed temple is in SS is in Faron, in a forest
The temple of time in OoT is next to a city
The temple of time in TP is in Faron, in a forest, next to some ruins

Which is more likely?

That before OoT they cut down the forest to build the city, and then the forest reclaimed the land leaving the Temple of Time in Ruins.
Or
That they demolished the sealed temple, moved the master sword to a different location, and then demolished it again to rebuild it in the original place and move the master sword again

That they moved the town once.
Or
That they moved the Temple twice, Master Sword included.

Either the Temple of Time or the Town have to move between OoT and TP, and the Town is more likely
 

Locke

Hegemon
Site Staff
Joined
Nov 24, 2009
Location
Redmond, Washington
I do agree that it's more likely that the town moved than the ToT, but for the record I don't buy the argument of not being able to move the MS. The DoT perhaps, maybe even the PoT, but there's no good reason why the MS itself would be unmovable. A sword can be moved without being "wielded," however strictly or loosely that word is meant to be taken.
 
Joined
Jul 7, 2012
why move the city? Maby like one of one of yall sead " maby the sages moved the town and torn down the temple" ( sorry i forgot which one sead that) i can see that happening since this is the child timeline and link told zelda what would happen, maby ganondorf did try to attack the city and he failed so the sages moved the city and built a castle that that was stronger ( note their was still what appears to be building scaffolding in TP's castle so it was probably eather still under construction or repairing the damages Zant did) Perhaps also the lost woods was also somehow moved ( how? IDK) to hide the true location to the temple of time, after all you need Zelda's lullaby to even access the sacred grove and its a Maze, also the skull kid is their Perhaps the sages wanted him as a guide sense he knows saria's song that was taught by OOT Link ( probably used it to get TP link's attention) and knows the forest tso he guide TP link to the temple of time, by playing a cruel game of hide and seek. so that's my take on it, ill work on the my theory of SS tot and OOT tot later on
 
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Random Person

Just Some Random Person
Joined
Feb 6, 2010
Location
Wig-Or-Log
why move the city? Maby like one of one of yall sead " maby the sages moved the town and torn down the temple" ( sorry i forgot which one sead that) i can see that happening since this is the child timeline and link told zelda what would happen, maby ganondorf did try to attack the city and he failed so the sages moved the city and built a castle that that was stronger ( note their was still what appears to be building scaffolding in TP's castle so it was probably eather still under construction or repairing the damages Zant did) Perhaps also the lost woods was also somehow moved ( how? IDK) to hide the true location to the temple of time, after all you need Zelda's lullaby to even access the sacred grove and its a Maze, also the skull kid is their Perhaps the sages wanted him as a guide sense he knows saria's song that was taught by OOT Link ( probably used it to get TP link's attention) and knows the forest tso he guide TP link to the temple of time, by playing a cruel game of hide and seek. so that's my take on it, ill work on the my theory of SS tot and OOT tot later on

The thing is, we can say maybe this or maybe that but there's more to theorizing than just making things up. You don't just say maybe something happened, you look at the clues the game (or other source of entertainment) is providing for you. Many forms of entertainments have what has been called "bibles" in that they create backgrounds to the worlds and/or people and stick by those backgrounds. (This is actually the basics of creating any fictional world) They don't always tell the audience, but the audience can find hints to the background. It's kind of like the real world. Everything here is a result of our past. You may not know that a town was destroyed by a volcano, but you can see damaged ruins and fossilized, chard people and determine that it did happen. In the games, we see the ruins, we see the different locations of the Temples, we see the general locations of other key landmarks... based on these clues, the game is most likely pointing towards the movement of Castle Town itself, irregardless of what else could've happened in theory alone.
 
Joined
Feb 23, 2011
SS and TP are somewhat consistent in regards to the placement of MS and ToT, while OoT just throws everything off. Miyamoto and others appear to have just recently began to give a damn about geographical consistency between the games - the position of the ToT and the Master Sword - with the introduction of SS. The placement of the Temple of Time is nothing more than a retroactive continuity error.

SS>OoT>TP

However... To be honest, there is no valid explanation, because Nintendo has yet to come up with [a good] one. Although, that is not to say they did not try. For this very reason, I have a feeling that they might have had an ulterior motive with the inclusion of TWO ToTs in SS - an attempt to fix the geographical discontinuity, perhaps? Maybe. One thing's for certain, though, and that is the fact that Nintendo has failed to establish geographical consistency in Hyrule; therefore it is best to leave geography out of theories.
 
Joined
Jul 7, 2012
The thing is, we can say maybe this or maybe that but there's more to theorizing than just making things up. You don't just say maybe something happened, you look at the clues the game (or other source of entertainment) is providing for you. Many forms of entertainments have what has been called "bibles" in that they create backgrounds to the worlds and/or people and stick by those backgrounds. (This is actually the basics of creating any fictional world) They don't always tell the audience, but the audience can find hints to the background. It's kind of like the real world. Everything here is a result of our past. You may not know that a town was destroyed by a volcano, but you can see damaged ruins and fossilized, chard people and determine that it did happen. In the games, we see the ruins, we see the different locations of the Temples, we see the general locations of other key landmarks... based on these clues, the game is most likely pointing towards the movement of Castle Town itself, irregardless of what else could've happened in theory alone.

i wasent exactly making things up, i was simply looking at the clues that he games gave me and tried my best to connect them together, isint that what " Theories" all about?, looking at the clues and trying you best to solve them?

Did ganondorf attacked the city? well the game TP did say he tried to via an invasion and he failed and was sent to abitur grounds to be executed.

Castle town moved, you can see ruins of old castle town in Sacred groves, why its moved it could be multiple reasons but i choosed ganondorf's invasion cause it made more sence to me, and i dint read the volcanic theory till after i writin my post. they probably moved the city because it was probably too damaged to live in so they decided to move ( like in OOT were people moved to karikiko village ) or to protect the location of the sacred realms and the Master sword to prevent this from happening again, also it is possible that people now knew about the triforce/sacred realm's location so they moved the town to prevent a civil war, though it did happen according to the back story of A Link to the Past, but it was called the Imprisoning War and is on the Defeated time line not child.

if you look at the map between OOT and TP they kinda line up with some differences people say Ordon village is were Korkri village use to be but the lost woods is in a different location some how it was moved cause lost woods and the TOT are in different parts in OOT's map so the lost woods had to been moved some how. you will need Zelda's lullaby to even enter the sacred grove so someone who has ties to the royal family to keep people from entering, they know that one day Link would need the master sword again, the lost woods is a Maze so it would be perfect to hide the true location of TOT in it.

the skull kid, he lived in the Lost woods so i bet he knows were all the paths goes, in TP he plays Saria's song which was taught by link in OOT so it must had been the same skull kid, though it is unknown how long they live, he does playes saria' song when you are close to him, and he probably reconised link thinking he was the same link from OOT and MM, when you attack him he unlocks a new passage and he does take link to the location of the " true sacred grove"

scaffolding in TP's castle i made 2 hypothesis on why they are their, 1 the castle is still under construction due to the move, 2, their was a cut scene were after Zant invades the castle it is on fire so their must had been some damage, though it is unknown when zant 1st attacked.

and finally OOT and TP is on the same timeline ( not much to say about that)
 
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Random Person

Just Some Random Person
Joined
Feb 6, 2010
Location
Wig-Or-Log
SS and TP are somewhat consistent in regards to the placement of MS and ToT, while OoT just throws everything off. Miyamoto and others appear to have just recently began to give a damn about geographical consistency between the games - the position of the ToT and the Master Sword - with the introduction of SS. The placement of the Temple of Time is nothing more than a retroactive continuity error.

SS>OoT>TP

However... To be honest, there is no valid explanation, because Nintendo has yet to come up with [a good] one. Although, that is not to say they did not try. For this very reason, I have a feeling that they might have had an ulterior motive with the inclusion of TWO ToTs in SS - an attempt to fix the geographical discontinuity, perhaps? Maybe. One thing's for certain, though, and that is the fact that Nintendo has failed to establish geographical consistency in Hyrule; therefore it is best to leave geography out of theories.

I actually used to agree with this notion before reading this thread. I came here expecting to prove cfrock wrong because Zelda geography for me just seems all off. Problem is, I wound up finding a connection as well as some explanation to the weird geography. Now my thought process is, while Nintendo isn't the best at continuity in any sense, that's not to say they don't try in some respect. In the past I often wondered why there were Random ruins in East Hyrule Field. It seems more likely that there's some attempt at continuity here than just Random ruins.
...
Still doesn't explain that Random stage in south Hyrule Field but... one step at a time.
 

Justac00lguy

BooBoo
Joined
Jul 1, 2012
Gender
Shewhale
i wasent exactly making things up, i was simply looking at the clues that he games gave me and tried my best to connect them together, isint that what " Theories" all about?, looking at the clues and trying you best to solve them?

Did ganondorf attacked the city? well the game TP did say he tried to via an invasion and he failed and was sent to abitur grounds to be executed.

Castle town moved, you can see ruins of old castle town in Sacred groves, why its moved it could be multiple reasons but i choosed ganondorf's invasion cause it made more sence to me, and i dint read the volcanic theory till after i writin my post. they probably moved the city because it was probably too damaged to live in so they decided to move ( like in OOT were people moved to karikiko village ) or to protect the location of the sacred realms and the Master sword to prevent this from happening again, also it is possible that people now knew about the triforce/sacred realm's location so they moved the town to prevent a civil war, though it did happen according to the back story of A Link to the Past, but it was called the Imprisoning War and is on the Defeated time line not child.

if you look at the map between OOT and TP they kinda line up with some differences people say Ordon village is were Korkri village use to be but the lost woods is in a different location some how it was moved cause lost woods and the TOT are in different parts in OOT's map so the lost woods had to been moved some how. you will need Zelda's lullaby to even enter the sacred grove so someone who has ties to the royal family to keep people from entering, they know that one day Link would need the master sword again, the lost woods is a Maze so it would be perfect to hide the true location of TOT in it.

the skull kid, he lived in the Lost woods so i bet he knows were all the paths goes, in TP he plays Saria's song which was taught by link in OOT so it must had been the same skull kid, though it is unknown how long they live, he does playes saria' song when you are close to him, and he probably reconised link thinking he was the same link from OOT and MM, when you attack him he unlocks a new passage and he does take link to the location of the " true sacred grove"

scaffolding in TP's castle i made 2 hypothesis on why they are their, 1 the castle is still under construction due to the move, 2, their was a cut scene were after Zant invades the castle it is on fire so their must had been some damage, though it is unknown when zant 1st attacked.

and finally OOT and TP is on the same timeline ( not much to say about that)

If you look at the map of both Twilight Princess and Ocarina of Time, you can see that in OoT the Kokiri Forest is located in the South-East area of the map...In Twilight Princess, Ordan is located in the most southern section of the map. So therefore even though that the maps are not completely accurate I think its clear to see that both Ordan and the Kokiri forest are both different areas...
 
Joined
Jul 7, 2012
If you look at the map of both Twilight Princess and Ocarina of Time, you can see that in OoT the Kokiri Forest is located in the South-East area of the map...In Twilight Princess, Ordan is located in the most southern section of the map. So therefore even though that the maps are not completely accurate I think its clear to see that both Ordan and the Kokiri forest are both different areas...

Right, another thing that came to mind is the lost woods did not move, but instead TOT...but why also move the ruins of castle town? perhaps that is not the ruins of castle town, some people beleave that the ruins are actuly the forest temple from OOT.. but i idk on that
 
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silent lion

ReDead
Joined
Nov 5, 2007
Location
UK
I hold that after OoT a bunch of people (maybe refugees from Kakariko, or who knows) settled in Lon Lon Ranch and built the new Hyrule Castle just above it. I also claim that the Temple Of Time in TP is the same ToT as in OoT, but in a different place. How does that make any sense? Well, warps. My main backing for all this is just how well the maps of SS, OoT and TP match up. Check this out, in in-game chronological order.

1605354784433.png
1605354852415.png

Desert on the left, woods on the right, volcano near the top. So far so good. Now for TP:


1605354969788.png

Ah, balls. But wait, hold on a moment. Look what happens when I do this:

1605355278506.png

Mountain near the top, Kakariko village to the right of it, woods on the right, lake below the field. What about that desert? Well, the entrance to the desert from Hyrule Field is in the correct place. Who knows how far the desert in OoT extends out of bounds, certainly it could wrap around Lake Hylia. Which would put TP's castle just north of Lon Lon Ranch. And about that lake - here's a theory. At some point after SS, for whatever reason, Skyloft ends up back in the sky. That huge depression left behind becomes filled with water (maybe leading to the lake in SS drying up, or simply being out of bounds who knows). I mean, go to the lake in TP. What's floating above it?

I mean dosh garnit, even the dirt paths snaking around central hyrule field are the same as in OoT.

It just all lines up a bit too well. Either the ToT was moved (we know that time magic can exist in multiple locations if SS's ToT is not the same as OoT's ToT), or one of those crazy warps in the Lost Woods region links to the old location of the ToT in OoT. If you look just to the right of where OoT's market would land on the rotated TP map, there's a little black out of bounds space. Who knows....

Incidentally, the Desert temple in SS could have become the Spirit Temple in OoT by this theory - the locals might have started worshipping the strangeness they found there or something.
 
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