The Order of MC, FS and FSA

[Zemen]

i just had to start this thread because there are WAY too many people out there who are making timeline theories that can not back up any reasonings for where they place these games and why. if people would take the time to reasearch then it would be much more obvious as to where these games go. i will explain where these games go and why.

i will start off with the order that JUST THESE THREE GAMES GO.

Minish Cap HAS TO BE BEFORE FS AND FSA.

Reason: MC is the first time anyone comes into any sort of confrontation with Vaati. the game explains Vaati's backstory. what he used to do before he was evil. why he became evil. how he got his power. its basically in comparison to OoT. OoT had the introduction of Ganondorf. MC has the introduction of Vaati. at the end of the game, Vaati is sealed in the very chest that he opened at the beginning of the game.

this leads into FS. it HAS to be second because Vaati is accidentally released from the chest by Link. in order for him to be released, he had to have been put in there somehow (hence why MC is first). at the end of the game he is resealed into the chest.

and the last of the three is FSA. the reason this game is last is because Ganon is in it. Vaati is trying to ressurect Ganon (after he is accidentally released from the chest again). at the end of the game Vaati is defeated and Ganon is sealed in the chest.

now i will explain where these games go on the timeline relative to the other games.

MC is first on the timeline. i will explain why in a second.

FS is second on the timeline. when FS came out, Miyamoto stated that FS takes place BEFORE OoT on the timeline. now because MC is an obvious prequel to FS (because of my reasonings earlier) that would put MC first.

FSA does not take place til some time later. before ALTTP specifically. the reason FSA comes just before ALTTP is because of the ending of FSA. in the end of the game, we see Ganon has the trident/trifork of power which he also has in ALTTP (the only other game he has it i believe).

also, in ALTTP you can get to the four sword chamber (where ganon is sealed at the end of FSA) and you can see the broken sword and the opened chest which means that Ganon escaped the four sword chest (which he was put in at the end of FSA) so FSA HAS to come just before ALTTP which means it doesnt take place til quite a while after MC and FS.

i have heard the following argument many times.

"they all have the same villain, sword, and basic storyline so they cant take place that much further apart."

here is my rebuttal.

the FS series (MC FS FSA) do, indeed, all have the same villain, sword and basic storyline. you are all very observant, but do you want to know WHY they can take place so far apart on a timeline? its because all the other zelda games are the same.

lets see...every game other than the FS series, LA and PH have the same common villain, the same sword and the same basic storyline (get the triforce before Ganon/dorf). all of those games take place with great amounts of time apart so why should it be any different for the FS series?

this is my argument. its a very good one, IMO. go ahead and discuss what you think is right and wrong.

 

[Welbanks]

I think that your 100% right, it seems pretty obvious that it goes MC FS then FSA before ALLTP.
But what i dident know was about that broken four sword thing showing that ganon escaped, im gunna assume that happens in the gameboy version that i dont have -_-

 

[Zemen]

I think that your 100% right, it seems pretty obvious that it goes MC FS then FSA before ALLTP.
But what i dident know was about that broken four sword thing showing that ganon escaped, im gunna assume that happens in the gameboy version that i dont have -_-

yeah its in the remake. not in the original.

 

[Skull_Kid]

I think that your 100% right, it seems pretty obvious that it goes MC FS then FSA before ALLTP.
But what i dident know was about that broken four sword thing showing that ganon escaped, im gunna assume that happens in the gameboy version that i dont have -_-

even the order is most probably MC, FS, FSA, they don't need to be one right after the other, my guess is that MC and FS are one after the other, and then there's a gap filled with other games, and then comes FSA, followed by ALttP

 

[Zemen]

even the order is most probably MC, FS, FSA, they don't need to be one right after the other, my guess is that MC and FS are one after the other, and then there's a gap filled with other games, and then comes FSA, followed by ALttP

yeah thats exactly what im trying to explain. a lot of people think they have to come one right after another but i think that it goes MC FS and then there are a few games inbetween on the child timeline and then FSA takes place.

 

[Bluelink6]

You've explainesd it pretty well. I think this order is probably right, and the explainations sound reasonable, so I tihnk this is likely correct.

 

[Smertios]

Zemen, I respect your views and I have to say that I acknowledge that your timeline can work. nevertheless, i have a few things to add.

First, I feel exactly like you about ordering TMC, FS and FSA. I've seen many people placing them in different timelines and even in the wrong order. So, yes, the order was supposed to go TMC---FS---FSA (btw, i noticed that you guys don't have a standard for timeline notation here, so I'll post a guide to the one we use in other forums in the end of the post, it really makes theorizing faster).

Now, your evidence to why TMC should come first is not good enough in my opinion. I'll post the pros and cons of placingTMc before oot and after PH so you can see what I'm talking about. But first, let me quote one thing that you said.

FS is second on the timeline. when FS came out, Miyamoto stated that FS takes place BEFORE OoT on the timeline. now because MC is an obvious prequel to FS (because of my reasonings earlier) that would put MC first.

This is not true. Miyamoto never said anything about either FS nor TMC being first in the timeline. It was Aonuma who said that infamous line about FS being "the oldest tale of Hyrule". And please notice that Aonuma wasn't even involved in the production of FS.

Now, on TMC, the main reasons why i think TMC could come first are the following:

1. It shows the story of how Link got the hat
2. It tells the story of how rupees ended up in grass and pots
3. It doesn't show Ganon, so it's consistent with OoT

But there are many inconsistencies that you are ignoring, just because you think one quote from one specific interview, that could lead to different interpretations. These are:

1. Hyrule had been recently unified in OoT.
2. The Sheikah, who have been said to be serving the Hylian Royal family for several generations is not present in TMC. Also, the Impa family should be in the castle if TMC was before OoT.
3. OoT makes it pretty clear that Moblins didn't exist before Ganon entered the SR and touched the triforce. TP is there to support this claim.
4. Land octorocks are not seen in OoT, MM nor TP, but are seen in PH. This hints that games with land octorocks come after PH, and this includes TMC.
5. Death Mountain has two peaks, making it more similar to the one in FSA than to the one in OoT.
6. The world you see from above when you go to the Palace of Wins is more similar to the one from TWW than to the one from OoT.

Also, I have to remind you that you said yourself that TWW gives us another explanation to why there are rupees in grass and pots. As for the hat, I would agree with that if there was only one Link throughout the series. But it has been proven already that this is not the case. So, basically different heroes need different explanations to how they got their clothes (which includes the hat). One is given in TMC, another is given in OoT and another one is given in TWW...

So, all in all, I believe there is more evidence that TMC should be after PH in the timline...

 

[Zemen]

well here is my rebutal. just because OoT HINTS to the fact that there are no moblins before ganondorf gets the triforce of power doesnt really mean anything. MC was made quite a while after OoT and ideas could be changed for gameplay purposes. Miyamoto/Aunoma have stated that they make games based off of gameplay/puzzles. they make games to make them good not to make them consistent with a timeline so the fact that some monsters are present while others arent is most likely just a gameplay choice. the back story of MC does not speak of Ganondorf. no one mentions ganondorf. all that is mentioned is a war where some monsters were trying to get the light force which brings me to my next point.

many people believe that the light force is NOT the triforce. it is obvious that all of Hyrule knows what the triforce is seeing as how the symbol is everywhere but they call this particular power the light force. also, your theory states that MC would come after PH. if this is the case then why would they call the triforce the light force? they know what the triforce is so this makes no sense that in this game they would completely disregard its original name. not one person in MC says the word "triforce". the royal family has magic in their bloodline other than the triforce. this is made obvious in the ocarina. how did the ocarina get its power? it most certainly doesnt get its power from the triforce of wisdom because then Link would not be able to use it. obviously the ocarina gets its power from somewhere and in MC Zelda recieves the power of the light force which could be an explanation as to why the royal family has the magical powers it has other than those the triforce gives them.

also, the shiekah only appear in one game and that is OoT so i dont know why you are arguing their existence. im pretty sure that impa is in MC as well. when Zelda is turned to stone, you go into her room and there is a maid and im pretty sure thats impa and she tells you to please save Zelda.

also, there is no death mountain in MC. if MC takes place a great amount of time before OoT, then names could be changed and locations could be changed.

you are basing your theories on what monsters are in what games and on the geography. the only games that have DRASTIC changes in geography compared to the others is WW and PH.

i would bet a rediculous amount of money that the reason they change maps in the games is so that each game doesnt feel EXACTLY the same as the previous game. as i said before, they focus more on gameplay than on a timeline.

most of your ideas are based on monsters and geography whereas my ideas are more based on the actual story in the game. i would consider the story to be much more canonical than the monsters and geography.

 

[sign of table]

1. It shows the story of how Link got the hat

And OoT shows the story of the entire kokiri garb...

2. It tells the story of how rupees ended up in grass and pots

It is never stated that tMC is the first time that the Minish come out.

3. It doesn't show Ganon, so it's consistent with OoT

MM and PH don't show Ganon. That isn't a reason for it to go tMC-OoT. That only shows that it can work.

you are basing your theories on what monsters are in what games and on the geography. the only games that have DRASTIC changes in geography compared to the others is WW and PH.

Hmmm

also, there is no death mountain in MC. if MC takes place a great amount of time before OoT, then names could be changed and locations could be changed.

This sounds like geography...
Yeah they change maps for gameplay. But FSA being an island doesn't affect gameplay in any way.

most of your ideas are based on monsters and geography whereas my ideas are more based on the actual story in the game. i would consider the story to be much more canonical than the monsters and geography.

Can you tell me the reasons for your timeline? Ok I'll admit that FS-FSA isn't confirmed. It is heavily implied, though.

I don't want reasons for tMC first. I know it can go first. Tell me the other reasons for your CT placements.

The notation that me and Smertios use is that a / represents the same Link. Whereas a - represents an old Link. So:
----tWW/PH-OoX/LA-tMC-FS/FSA-LttP-LoZ/AoL
OoT
----MM-TP

Oh and explain the AoL BS please. The sleeping Zelda in the AoL BS is called the Shodai. Shodai is translated to First Generation. So explain how OoT Zelda is the sleeping Zelda.

 

[Zemen]

And OoT shows the story of the entire kokiri garb... It is never stated that tMC is the first time that the Minish come out. MM and PH don't show Ganon. That isn't a reason for it to go tMC-OoT. That only shows that it can work. Hmmm This sounds like geography...
Yeah they change maps for gameplay. But FSA being an island doesn't affect gameplay in any way. Can you tell me the reasons for your timeline? Ok I'll admit that FS-FSA isn't confirmed. It is heavily implied, though.

I don't want reasons for tMC first. I know it can go first. Tell me the other reasons for your CT placements.

The notation that me and Smertios use is that a / represents the same Link. Whereas a - represents an old Link. So:
----tWW/PH-OoX/LA-tMC-FS/FSA-LttP-LoZ/AoL
OoT
----MM-TP

Oh and explain the AoL BS please. The sleeping Zelda in the AoL BS is called the Shodai. Shodai is translated to First Generation. So explain how OoT Zelda is the sleeping Zelda.

i have no idea what youre talking about at the end of your post..this thread is for MC, FS and FSA only so if you want to know that stuff go to a thread that talks about all of the games instead of just these three.

 

[sign of table]

Ok, sorry for going off topic. Will you respond to this post in Smertios' Timeline thread? Or make your own?

 

[Zemen]

Ok, sorry for going off topic. Will you respond to this post in Smertios' Timeline thread? Or make your own?

im still a little confused as to what youre asking so send me a PM and we will discuss it further there.

 

[Smertios]

well here is my rebutal. just because OoT HINTS to the fact that there are no moblins before ganondorf gets the triforce of power doesnt really mean anything. MC was made quite a while after OoT and ideas could be changed for gameplay purposes. Miyamoto/Aunoma have stated that they make games based off of gameplay/puzzles. they make games to make them good not to make them consistent with a timeline so the fact that some monsters are present while others arent is most likely just a gameplay choice. the back story of MC does not speak of Ganondorf. no one mentions ganondorf. all that is mentioned is a war where some monsters were trying to get the light force which brings me to my next point.

I have to agree with you that both Miyamoto and Aonuma stated that gameplay should come first and storyline/timeline are a second phase of developing the games. But Aonuma (and i also wanted to make it clear that Aonuma is the head director of the Zelda series now) also stated that, after the game is complete, they do add stuff to make connections to other games in the series.

TP had moblins in the preliminary stages of development. Moblins were shown in E3 one year (i think it was in E3 2005, but I'm not sure, i'll check) before TP was released. In the final version, however, they decided to take the moblins out and used bulblins as the main enemies. Considering Aonuma quote that they do change small details after the game is done for timeline purposes, it is wise to assume that they decided not to have moblins in TP for timline reasons. It definitely wasn't for gameplay, considering there were moblins in the beta version of TP.

So, if TMC retconned OoT, showing that there should be Moblins in the YT (or CT, as some people call it), TP pretty much retconned that to show that there shouldn't be any. And TP is more recent than TMC...

many people believe that the light force is NOT the triforce. it is obvious that all of Hyrule knows what the triforce is seeing as how the symbol is everywhere but they call this particular power the light force. also, your theory states that MC would come after PH. if this is the case then why would they call the triforce the light force? they know what the triforce is so this makes no sense that in this game they would completely disregard its original name. not one person in MC says the word "triforce". the royal family has magic in their bloodline other than the triforce. this is made obvious in the ocarina. how did the ocarina get its power? it most certainly doesnt get its power from the triforce of wisdom because then Link would not be able to use it. obviously the ocarina gets its power from somewhere and in MC Zelda recieves the power of the light force which could be an explanation as to why the royal family has the magical powers it has other than those the triforce gives them.

Okay, the Light Force is not the triforce. The original japanese name for it is the same used for the Force Gems and the Life Force, but not the same word used for the triforce.

Also, why would the triforce ever be in the Picori world??

also, the shiekah only appear in one game and that is OoT so i dont know why you are arguing their existence. im pretty sure that impa is in MC as well. when Zelda is turned to stone, you go into her room and there is a maid and im pretty sure thats impa and she tells you to please save Zelda.

In OoT, the Sheikah are said to have been serving the Hylians for generations. And the maid is not called Impa...

Anyway, this does not disprove TMC coming first, I just said that, if they wanted that to be the case, they would show a few sheikah protecting the Royal Family...

also, there is no death mountain in MC. if MC takes place a great amount of time before OoT, then names could be changed and locations could be changed.

It is said somewhere that Mt. Crenel and Veil falls are the 2 peaks of Death Mountain. I never checked that, but I don't see why it wouldn't be true. After all, TMC was always supposed to be a prequel (not a direct one, of course) to FSA...

you are basing your theories on what monsters are in what games and on the geography. the only games that have DRASTIC changes in geography compared to the others is WW and PH.

Not really. I base it on storyline too. Remember that Miyamoto confirmed that OoT is the IW. And the IW is the backstory of LttP. Considering OoT didn't happen (well, at least not the IW part) in the YT, LttP has to come in the AT. FSA has to come before LttP, so it goes to the AT too. As I believe that FS/FSA is hinted, FS does the same. LoZ and AoL have to come there too mainly because of the town names from AoL: they were based on characters the sages from the IW. OoX goes in the AT mainly because of TRR, which shows not only several connections to OoX, but a world that is incredibly similar to how it is in TWW.

I only use geography and the enemies as a means of ordering the games that are in the AT. It is not why i put them there...

i would bet a rediculous amount of money that the reason they change maps in the games is so that each game doesnt feel EXACTLY the same as the previous game. as i said before, they focus more on gameplay than on a timeline.

True. SoJ likes to say that map comparisons are just fanfic. I have to agree with him, when it comes to the timeline. But I believe that OoA and OoS make it clear that the devs do use past ame maps as reference for creating new ones. So a connection is made, even when it is not necesserily relevant to the timeline.

most of your ideas are based on monsters and geography whereas my ideas are more based on the actual story in the game. i would consider the story to be much more canonical than the monsters and geography.

Exactly why I don't place the games on the AT because of geography. You are pretty much ignoring the references to TWW in TMC; the fact that LttP needs the IW to happen; and the fact that the town names in AoL were meant to be the names of the Sages from OoT adult part (this was confirmed by one of the story writers of OoT at the time of release and, more recently, by Aonuma - Nintendo Power, 2007)

And OoT shows the story of the entire kokiri garb...

I know. I was just pointing the reasons that people generally give me for TMC coming first.

It is never stated that tMC is the first time that the Minish come out. MM and PH don't show Ganon.

Better yet, in TWW, someone says that people are always dropping rupees and saving them in pots.

The notation that me and Smertios use is that a / represents the same Link. Whereas a - represents an old Link. So:
----tWW/PH-OoX/LA-tMC-FS/FSA-LttP-LoZ/AoL
OoT
----MM-TP

Oh, right. I said I would post about the notation and completely forgot.
Basically, this is the notation used in ZU, ZI and ZL. We decided to make it a standard a few years ago to avoid confusion and, well, it is easier to represent the timeline that way.

Using this notation, we have slashes ("/") to separate games when one is a direct sequel to the other and they share the same hero (the same Link). Hyphens ("-") are used to separate games when one of them is a direct sequel to the other, but doesn't share the same hero.

When we want to indicate that one game is a sequel to the other, but not directly, or we don't know how many games should come between the; we (and this isn't universally accepted yet) use a set of three hyphens ("---"), like TMC---FS---FSA. This is true everywhere, including in your timelines...

The split is pretty much represented by
...../
OoT
.....\
with the AT normally going on top and the YT on bottom. So it would go like this:

...../-TWW/PH
OoT
.....\MM-TP

The acronyms are as follow:
OoT= Ocarina of Time
MM= Majora's Mask
TP= Twilight princess
TWW= The Wind Waker
PH= Phantom Hourglass
TMC= The Minish Cap
FS= Four Swords
FSA= Four swords Adventures
LttP= A Link to the Past
LA= Link's Awakening
LA DX/LAdx= Link's Awakening Deluxe
OoX= The Oracle games
OoS= Oracle of Seasons
OoA= Oracle of Ages
KnS= Kodai no sekiban (the same as AST)
AST= Ancient Stone Tablets
BSLoZ= Battleview Sattelite - The Legend of Zelda
BSTotG= Battleview Sattelite - Triforce of the Gods
TRR= Freshly picked: tingle's Rosy rupeeland
TBF= Tingle's Baloon Fight
LCT= Link's Crossbow Training
AoZ= Adventure of Zelda
WoG= Wand of Gamelon
FoE= Faces of Evil
ZGW= Zelda Game Watch
ZG&W= Zelda Game and Watch

S&D= Sound & Drama (audio cd of LttP)

LoZ BS/LoZBS/LoZbs= LoZ backstory
AoL BS/AoLBS/AoLbs= AoL backstory
FS BS/FSBS/FSbs= Four Swords backstory
(this can be applied to all games for their backstories)

FSA TBS/FSAtbs= FSa trident backstory (this one only i seem to use )

IW= Impresoning War
SW= Seal War (the same as IW)
FW= Firece Wars
II= Interlopers' Incident
WotBC= War of the Bound Chest (virtually the same as TMCbs)
UW= Unification War

SR= Sacred Realm
TR= Twilight Realm
TC= Twilight Curtain

MS= Master Sword
4S= Four Sword (another that only i use)
ToC= Triroce of Courage)
ToW= Triforce of Wisdom
ToP= Triforce of Power

These are the most important, there are many others too...

I thought this was universally adopted by the theorizing community, but, when I came here, I realized that it is not. So I apologize if this caused any sort of misunderstanding at some point...

I hope everybody understands. In case you prefer, I can switch to the native standard as soon as someone teachs me how it is. If there is one,of course...

i have no idea what youre talking about at the end of your post..this thread is for MC, FS and FSA only so if you want to know that stuff go to a thread that talks about all of the games instead of just these three.

Fair enough.

Ok, sorry for going off topic. Will you respond to this post in Smertios' Timeline thread? Or make your own?

Smertios's Timeline...
I like the s's and it is gramatically correct

 

[Caleb, Of Asui]

HOLY CRAP!! That is a really good argument. You even managed to convince me - though, it is already extremely obvious that TMC is a prequel to FS and FSA.

Having TMC and FS first, then FSA as a prequel to LttP is what you convinced me of. It just seems to fit so much better than my previous theory. That might also explain why FS is included on the same cartridge as LttP, aside from the fact that it's a really short game.

 

[Zemen]

HOLY CRAP!! That is a really good argument. You even managed to convince me - though, it is already extremely obvious that TMC is a prequel to FS and FSA.

Having TMC and FS first, then FSA as a prequel to LttP is what you convinced me of. It just seems to fit so much better than my previous theory. That might also explain why FS is included on the same cartridge as LttP, aside from the fact that it's a really short game.

well im glad i was able to convince someone. thanks for the feedback.