Spoiler The Many Timelines of Majora's Mask

[Polychrome]

Rewinding is exactly what Zelda did to Link in OOT though. She basically erased all his accomplishments, who he'd become, etc.

Honestly, Majora's Mask was my initial reason for not liking the idea of a split timeline. It would mean nasty consequences for Termina...but looking back, Termina was the perfect name for it, eh? It's doomed. Even when you win, you have to look back at all the failed attempts. There's no hope, there's no going back.

I guess the point was you were supposed to take the ending with a "glass is half full" mentality. It's extremely depressing, but you worked your hardest to save it once. It may not matter as much in the grand scheme of things, but it means everything to the people that were saved.

 

[Garo]

Rewinding is exactly what Zelda did to Link in OOT though. She basically erased all his accomplishments, who he'd become, etc.

It isn't though. She didn't rewind the timeline; she removed Link from the timeline and planted him in a new one, in which the events of the game hadn't happened yet. Zelda's timeline, the one the game's events took place in, still exists independently of Link, and doesn't rewind. Link is taken out of one and placed in a brand new one, creating two divergent timelines.

Majora's Mask doesn't remove Link from the timeline; it rewinds the time around Link, so he remembers everything and retains some things, but everything else is reset. It's the same timeline - the cycle he just finished no longer exists independent of Link - just as if the three days haven't happened yet.

 

[Polychrome]

It isn't though. She didn't rewind the timeline; she removed Link from the timeline and planted him in a new one, in which the events of the game hadn't happened yet. Zelda's timeline, the one the game's events took place in, still exists independently of Link, and doesn't rewind. Link is taken out of one and placed in a brand new one, creating two divergent timelines.

Sorry, I don't agree with you.

It's not the act of time travel that split time. It's what happened afterwards. If I remember right, Aonuma said that it was Link and Zelda testifying against Ganondorf that had caused the split, and created the "parallel" time. Yes, the other time kept going. If we assume divergent timelines are created by changes, then a time traveler wouldn't affect anyone or anything else in the time left behind. The person would simply cease to exist in the current timeline.

Here's how it most likely went down...

Link's life was rewound to the point where he was first grasping the Master Sword. He has not yet pulled it out at this point. Instead of continuing like he did and leaving the Temple of Time open for Ganondorf to just walk into, he walked away and the door closed behind him. If Ganondorf never accessed the sacred realm, then we have to assume the danger to Zelda would have eventually passed. We have no indication how much time passed between the Temple of Time and Link returning to the castle and meeting Zelda. If time was rewound, then Link would still have the Ocarina at this point, which would be returned to Zelda. They tattle on Ganondorf, and probably split the Triforce on their own terms after he was sentenced. (Or at least, I think this is the most likely reason for the scene at the Arbiter's Grounds.)

Also...the fact that we now have "Link losing OOT" as a cause for yet another official split tells me that even savegames are considered time divergences to Nintendo.

So yes, I think it is quite safe to assume that Termina was destroyed many, many times in a variety of alternate timelines before everything was settled. And I think it's worth pointing out... All that death symbolism that people like to hypothesize about? Think about it this way... You spend most of your time in Majora's Mask fulfilling the final wishes of the dying. The one time you DO save it is the anomaly. Termina was a terminal world, as implied by its name. The very thing that wrecked Link's life between OOT and MM, gave Termina a second chance. (Or 30th...or 50th...whatever)

 

[Garo]

Sorry, I don't agree with you.

You are more than free to disagree, but understand that to do so is to disagree with explicitly stated canon.

Hyrule Historia makes it very explicit that the point of divergence is Adult Link's being sent back in time to the "Child Era." It also explicitly uses the term "rewind" to refer to the resetting of the three-day cycle in Majora's Mask.

In order to right her [Princess Zelda's] wrongs, she played the Ocarina, returning Link to his original era and allowing him to regain the seven years that had passed when he remained sealed.

[This] timeline [...] unfolds following the Hero of Time's return to the Child Era.

[This] timeline [...] unfolds following the Hero of Time's departure from the Adult Era.

Using the Ocarina of Time, Link was able to rewind the passage of time to three days before the moon fell.

Note that the distinction in timelines is based not on the actions that occur in the new Child Era, but rather based on the Hero of Time's presence - or lack thereof - in the original Adult Era. The divergent point is his being sent back. Additionally, note the difference in language describing the time travel - "sent back in time" vs. "rewind the passage of time." Distinction is critical. There's also the panoply of visual evidence - the removal of Link manifesting as his vanishing from the scene in the clouds, but the world persisting after his disappearance, versus the Termina rewind which is visualized as the world fading to white around Link as clocks rewind around him, clocks that are also used to visualize modifications to the flow of time as seen when using the Song of Inverted Time.

As always, believe what you choose to - but the evidence of canonical sources is stacked mightily against you.

 

[Polychrome]

In order to right her [Princess Zelda's] wrongs, she played the Ocarina, returning Link to his original era and allowing him to regain the seven years that had passed when he remained sealed.

And I'm not disagreeing with that quote in the slightest. Heck, it's only one of many quotes that convinces me it's a rewind.

You have to consider the following:

The Wind Waker is parallel. In Ocarina of Time, Link flew seven years in time, he beat Ganon and went back to being a kid, remember? Twilight Princess takes place in the world of Ocarina of Time, a hundred and something years after the peace returned to kid Link’s time. In the last scene of Ocarina of Time, kids Link and Zelda have a little talk, and as a consequence of that talk, their relationship with Ganon takes a whole new direction. In the middle of this game [Twilight Princess], there's a scene showing Ganon's execution. It was decided that Ganon be executed because he'd do something outrageous if they left him be. That scene takes place several years after Ocarina of Time. Ganon was sent to another world and now he wants to obtain the power...

This sounds an awful lot like Link's adventure was simply undone, allowing him to beat Ganondorf with knowledge of the future, rather than the Master Sword.

Nowhere do Hyrule Historia or any of the Devs say Zelda cut him out and pasted him in another dimension like a bad photoshop job. She returned him to his original age before the adventure...which is exactly what rewinding would have done. Hyrule Historia makes no attempt to distinguish between the two.

It was well within Link's power to make the exact same choices that would have led to the WW timeline. He simply didn't.

Believe me... I hate what that implies for Termina, but I also understand that the glass-is-half-full message of Majora's Mask isn't quite so striking without it. Optimism in the face of impossibility is its own form of bravery.

 

[Spiritual Mask Salesman]

This sounds an awful lot like Link's adventure was simply undone, allowing him to beat Ganondorf with knowledge of the future, rather than the Master Sword.

Well technically it was undone, but only on the timeline Link was sent back on (the child timeline). On the timeline Link previously was an adult on the aftermath of Link beating Ganondorf still exhists, it did happen on that timeline. By sending Link back in time it eradicated Link from said timeline but left behind his actions - OoT really did happen on it otherwise that timeline should have been eradicated as well (along with Link).

It wasn't a rewind for Zelda and the Hylians who Link saved after OoT - I guess one could say it was a rewind only for Link though.

 

[Garo]

Hyrule Historia makes no attempt to distinguish between the two.

It does though. It specifically refers to the persistence of the world Link left behind. To the world where Ganon was defeated. Because it specifically refers to that timeline continuing to exist, it cannot have been rewound. It's like taking a tape and rewinding it in the middle of the credits - the credits don't keep rolling once you've rewound them, everything starts over. But because the credits kept rolling - because Zelda's time still existed - it could not have been rewound.

 

[Polychrome]

You cannot change what happens on a VHS tape just by watching and rewinding. You could get out a copy of Adobe Premiere, but then you're creating a new file out of an old one...and then we're back to changing time.

Majora's Mask is more like an enormous flowchart. If left alone to its default path, it will come to its expected conclusion. If a change happens, it will diverge and come to a different conclusion. If you don't like the conclusion, you can start over from the beginning. But you're still left with physical reminders that the other "time" really happened.

Ocarina of Time's "flowchart", or at least the story we dealt with, leaned heavily on a single choice of a kid pulling a sword out of a stone. If anything, Ocarina of Time is more like the VHS tape in some ways, as you use events of the future to figure out what kid-Link has to do in the past. He jumps backward and forward, goes with the flow, and makes no attempt to change time until Zelda reverses everything at the end. Up until that point, it's like he's just kinda going along with everything else, like a person watching a movie.

The only thing we can differentiate by is what the characters did and what Nintendo has said. Unless Nintendo says otherwise (which it has not, and Hyrule Hastoria has not), there are plenty of reasons to assume that change = new timeline, especially since we know that losing OOT is considered a divergent timeline. It's obvious from the rest of the discussion in this thread, before I got here, that others came to the same conclusion once the split went canon. Majora's Mask simply took an existing time travel idea and ran with it for gameplay reasons.

 

[Spiritual Mask Salesman]

You cannot change what happens on a VHS tape just by watching and rewinding. You could get out a copy of Adobe Premiere, but then you're creating a new file out of an old one...and then we're back to changing time.

In Link's case he can, because Zelda sent him back and he retained knowledge of what would happen if he'd let things happen as it should he changed time by using that knowledge. Essientially it'd be like watching a tape, rewinding it, putting a new blank tape into a camera and hitting record.

Majora's Mask is more like an enormous flowchart. If left alone to its default path, it will come to its expected conclusion. If a change happens, it will diverge and come to a different conclusion. If you don't like the conclusion, you can start over from the beginning. But you're still left with physical reminders that the other "time" really happened.

How? The only reminders of what happened are in Link and Tatl's mind, there are no “Physical” reminders.

Ocarina of Time's "flowchart", or at least the story we dealt with, leaned heavily on a single choice of a kid pulling a sword out of a stone. If anything, Ocarina of Time is more like the VHS tape in some ways, as you use events of the future to figure out what kid-Link has to do in the past. He jumps backward and forward, goes with the flow, and makes no attempt to change time until Zelda reverses everything at the end. Up until that point, it's like he's just kinda going along with everything else, like a person watching a movie.

... guess this is true, but by him going into the past and tampering with things as a child to help out his adult self he is kind of changing time, right?

The only thing we can differentiate by is what the characters did and what Nintendo has said. Unless Nintendo says otherwise (which it has not, and Hyrule Hastoria has not), there are plenty of reasons to assume that change = new timeline, especially since we know that losing OOT is considered a divergent timeline. It's obvious from the rest of the discussion in this thread, before I got here, that others came to the same conclusion once the split went canon. Majora's Mask simply took an existing time travel idea and ran with it for gameplay reasons.

Are we talking in the context of Majora's Mask here, or Ocarina of Time? In OoT's case this is true, sending Link back in time was a change which created two new timelines (the child and hero fails timelines) and left one timeline were Link doesn't exhist anymore. In MM because time get's rewound Link is preventing a definite ending from happening.

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Although everyone is inclined to have their own opinion.

 

[Polychrome]

How? The only reminders of what happened are in Link and Tatl's mind, there are no “Physical” reminders.

The masks of course.

... guess this is true, but by him going into the past and tampering with things as a child to help out his adult self he is kind of changing time, right?

There were a lot of occurrences in Ocarina of Time which, instead of being changes, were actually fated to happen. The best way I can put it is that Link in OOT is living his life anachronistically. He doesn't participate in any genuine time travel in this game. (Hold your horses and finish reading what I have to say before you respond.) Link moves up and down the timeline of his own life, living it out of order, with an extra-long coma taking up most of it. Anything he does as a child is already fated to happen. How do we know? You learn from the villagers what you're supposed to do as older, teenage Link, before going back and doing it. No changes are attempted or taking place. (My husband was always amused by how the Song of Storms seemed to be created by time itself.)

Not until the end of OOT between this game and Majora's Mask does Link actually do anything to change time. Thus the split. Thus why some speculate many, MANY splits in Majora's Mask. Majora's Mask consists of many, MANY changes. The good news? At least one Termina got out.

 

[Spiritual Mask Salesman]

The masks of course.

Yeah the masks slipped my mind, lol. Anyway yes the mask are the only physical reminders and they do seem to transcend time - although the reason Link keeps the masks and the weapons/items he gets in dungeons is because the game could not be beaten if he lost them each time he played the song of time. That being said the physical reminders are only in Link's possession, only Link reminders how things could have ended up before he reset time via the song of time.

Not until the end of OOT between this game and Majora's Mask does Link actually do anything to change time. Thus the split. Thus why some speculate many, MANY splits in Majora's Mask. Majora's Mask consists of many, MANY changes. The good news? At least one Termina got out.

Yes he did change time by using his knowledge of the future, thus creating the child timeline at that very moment. This concept cannot be applied to Majora's Mask though. The whole point Garo and I were trying to get at is that because Link uses the Song of Time before the moon crashes into Termina it is like it never happened. Going back to the VHS tape analogy imagine it like this: One buys a blank VHS tape, puts it in a VHS player and presses record to record a TV show on the tape. The next day the person rewinds the tape completely and records over that show (and records a new one). This happens mutiple times until eventually the person finds a show they like and finally decides to stop recording over that particular VHS tape. Now if that VHS tape was watched full through it will only have one show on it. What happened to all the other shows the person recorded? Were they transferred to other VHS tapes? No. They were recorded over, they are lost - all that remains is the final show which was the last recording. This is how Majora's Mask takes place, well atleast in my mind and many others.

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Anyway Kudos to you Polychrome, I respect that you are backing up your own opinion. Unfortunatly it looks like we are not going to agree with each other, lol. No hard feelings.

 

[Polychrome]

Fair enough, as long as we can leave it at that.