• Welcome to ZD Forums! You must create an account and log in to see and participate in the Shoutbox chat on this main index page.

The Hylia Hypothesis: The Goddess as a Divine Concept

Oni Link 303

Hylian Sage
Joined
Sep 1, 2016
Location
The Lost Woods
Gender
Male





One of the biggest mysteries that still proves to be a major head scratcher from BoTW is the nature of the Goddess statues. It seems evocative to think that the interactions from the statues, given that they speak directly to Link, and even identifies themselves explicitly as Hylia, is indeed Hylia. But there's a lot of debate on how such a thing is even possible following the scenario of Hylia reincarnating into Zelda from the events of SS, and the arguments generally align themselves around the contention of if every Zelda is a reincarnation of the goddess or descendants of the goddess reincarnated Zelda from SS. My aim here is not to open those floodgates, but to soundly investigate the enigma behind how the two (Hylia and Zelda) can seemingly coexist, despite the event of Zelda's reincarnation waving a huge red flag for saying that the statues couldn't be Hylia.

To preface this entire hypothesis, I'm going to be treading into the fields of both science and philosophy--something that isn't quite my style of theorizing about Zelda, but a major premise hinge on the intersections of both that I believe the series provides makeshift evidence for--the nature of how I think this type of duality between Zelda and Hylia is effectuated. Now to understand how such a coexistence is possible despite Hylia abandoning her divinity, one must come to propose that Hylia is indeed still around, albeit, in another reality and SS more-or-less insights such a thing from the Hylia statue in the Earth Spring under said premise:




HYLIA STATUE:
"I am guiding the one carrying out the Goddess's mission from a place beyond time."



As a person with a keen interest in studying astrophysics and metaphysics, this statement here has a broad array of fascinating implications, which if melded under Zelda's cosmology yields even greater insights about what Hylia actually is. Now the Zelda series has presented a plethora of different dimensions, with at least '15' known and observed dimensions across the franchise and likely more to come with the release of newer games. But this domain from which the Hylia statue says the entity resides in is beyond time. From a real-world cosmological perspective, something that would exist outside of time is either realistically not affected by causation or is outside of the physical universe. Now I'm not going to dive too deeply into the science due solely to the fact that this is a mind-numbingly complex topic, but it is necessary to explain the fundamental principles of the relationship between time and space to understand what this hypothesis is conveying.


What is time (scientifically)?

Scientifically, time at the most basic level is understood as the progression of sequential events from the past, present, then future. That sequence is extended to observable changes of matter within a state of causation, which is measured under a metric of duration. If you observe and calculate how long it takes for an idle apple to begin rotting, you can see the causal effects of what time as a temporal dimension imposes on matter. If you move the apple in any of the three spatial dimensions (left, right, up, down, forward, backward) you now have paired harmony between motion and duration collectively known as spacetime; there-in-which its now possible to track both the movement of the apple in space, and how fast its able to move in time through causation.

Spacetime is the fabric behind the playing field of the four dimensional plane of the universe. It extends to every possible area/region of space in a topological structure, where the relation between the two are consequentially effected by gravitational forces relative to the mass of an object. Basically, the heavier an object is, the more that gravity will be associated with it, and the more spacetime curves resulting into a phenomena known as time dilation, where time can actually be slower or faster depending on the observer immersed in strong or weak gravitational fields in areas of space.

That's one piece to the puzzle. The other piece is light. Because time as an application to reality is measured by duration, there must be a set constant for how fast something is able to move in time to grasp what its limitations are. The speed of light is the fastest fixed constant for measuring time, as its projected speed in time extends to infinity. What this entails is that the speed of light actually can't be measured in time by virtue of its incalculable speed, or more generously that time's limitations extends to infinity so to speak. Though generally, light emissions from any luminous source will always outpace what a clock can measure. Even to the smallest calculable unit, light emissions will remain a step ahead of the measurement, making it essentially "timeless." The expanse of the universe is teeming with billions of luminous celestial bodies, mainly stars, that gives off light. That light travels through the vacuums of space at 300km/s. But because space in the universe is insurmountably vast and gravitational fields are widespread, its field of light may not reach an observer from an incredibly distant world for millions of years. As such, that observable light relative to the observer from their own time is a perception of the past. When gazing out at the stars adorning the night sky you are, in a nutshell, looking at the past rather than the present. This dilation goes for the sun's distance relative to earth as well. When the sun rises to give way to daylight, its light reaches earth 8 minutes from the past state of what it currently is now. From a superficial standpoint this is what science defines time to be as an application to reality.


What is time (philosophically)?

Time philosophically shares the same rudimentary premise as the scientific viewpoint; the progressive sequence from past, present, and future imposed on matter. But in philosophical doctrines the approach to time is much more nuanced and varied in regards to its nature and experiences for people. However, for the sake of determining the significance and meaning behind the premise of the Hylia statue stating that she resides in a place beyond time, I'm going to be using the arcane platonic (Plato) view of time. In the platonic model of time, time is a much more metaphysical concept, that is to say it is an ontological basis for the applications of physics in the universe. The ontology behind the existence of things in the universe serves as a substrate behind the nature of its applications to the physical world, as such the properties derivative of the substrate are axiomatic to its design instantiated through several mediums. Example being things like why are things blue, why does mathematics exist, etc. These mediums are proprietary to their respective underlying metaphysical concepts (in this case "colors", and "numbers") that imposes the nature of its being onto several different things in reality. [Plato referred to these concepts as forms], and asserted that these forms reside in their own realms unbound by time.



There are generally three overarching realms that Plato believed exists: the abstract, the conceptual, and the physical realm, and each could be further divided into exclusive subcategories. Time is what is considered to reside in the conceptual realm due to causal agency-- its interactions with how events transpires in the physical realm--and thus dictates the chronology of events in the physical realm despite the concept itself being timeless. In hindsight, this essentially means that the physical realm is the stage through which concepts and all of their axioms (the proponents for which something is distinctively true) are able to perform. Plato also asserts that these causal agents are a necessary attribute behind the nature of the universe in order to provide substance, there of which the agency from their respective ontologies delineates a sense of purpose behind what nature means in the physical reality. Lastly philosophical doctrines teaches the significance of "universals" and "possible worlds", where universals encompasses the essence of something that is recurrent and duplicated under the same substrate (example being anything that has the color blue), and possible worlds being the state of a reality that could have been or what can be.

Now the key point of interest within both of these disciplines of knowledge regarding time that I want to stress for this hypothesis are "atemporal characteristics." The statement of "I am in a place beyond time" from the Hylia statue in SS is contingent to the idea that Hylia has warrant over time as a phenomena. This in turn consequently plays an integral role as to how there exists a sense of dualism behind both Zelda and Hylia existing simultaneously and seemingly independently, despite the latter reincarnating.



THE HYLIA HYPOTHESIS


Before I proceed I actually should probably take a step back first. Now the thesis for this uses both science and philosophy to tackle a relatively vague statement made in-game about a subjective topic: time. But of course, Zelda is a fictional world with high-end fantasy elements etched in its setting, and so using this line of insight may seem as if though I'm overthinking the issue simply on the grounds that it may not apply to real standards. That would also proceed to tell that the issue itself may contain a much more lenient explanation; which suffice to say, Occam's Razor would suggest that the place beyond time that Hylia is in, is actually just the past state of the world that Link enters through the Gate of Time, ergo, "place beyond time." But, there's a margin of error within that conclusion that dissuaded me from thinking its just that simple. When visiting the past state of the world in SS for the first time, Impa informs Link that Hylia successfully sealed away Demise as The Imprisoned. Zelda also discloses to Link the plans Hylia contrived in the past, which included the creation of Fi and the removal of her divinity:




IMPA:
"I received Hylia's command, to pass through the Gate of Time for the sake of saving the world and protecting you"



ZELDA:
"The Goddess Hylia prepared 2 plans to completely destroy him...One was to create the spirit Fi, which resides in the blade you're carrying, to guide her Chosen One. And the one...That was...Hylia herself would abandon her Godly body and her soul would be reincarnated into a human."



The removal of her divinity instills some very critical conditions as to where such an event should happen, however. Firstly, Impa tells Zelda that it was a direct order from Hylia to travel through the Gate of Time from the past to assist Zelda in her journey in the present, which clashes with the idea that Hylia had already evoked her plan of reincarnation into action; therefore, she shouldn't be around in the past. Now its possible to offer the rebuttal that Hylia just waited some time after sealing Demise to enact the process of reincarnation and, through the power of premonition, commanded Impa to assist Zelda in the present as a solution to this clash. But even this is faced with a critical issue and that is Demise's hatred. Demise's hatred is tantamount as well as analogous to his existence, but hatred is also a medium for power. Ganondorf, in TP for example, succinctly states that the hatred of the denizens of the Twilight Realm (Mostly, if not only, Zant) is what granted him power and grew attached to Zant because of it:



GANONDORF:
"Pitiful clan, to defy the gods with so little power, only to be forsaken. Your agony was the nourishment for my flesh and blood. The hatred turned into power, and awakened me."

Demise's hatred for the gods, even in his dwindled state as the Imprisoned, resonates strongly enough to where the Imprisoned is able to consistently overpower its seal due largely to the presence of divine power:



"When the light of the goddess's sword shines bright, the great apocalypse will awaken from its long slumber."


IMPA:
"This shaking...I fear the seal has been broken. I expected that it would react to your summoning the gate, but I never imagined the seal would break so quickly"

IMPA:
"No...I fear the seal has given way once again. That terrible beast is awakening even as we speak. It is likely that the monster reacted the sacred power given off by your sword."


The Imprisoned seemingly siphons off of the presence of divine force by using its hatred of anything consecrated as a catalyst to accumulate power. Also of note, Zelda's divine power in the midst of Ghirahim's ritual, was forcibly exposed; causing the Imprisoned to respond in only a matter of moments slightly after it was sealed away by Hylia according to Impa.


2307b76a5f4b5aefa0327a6d7bed9b5e.gif




This coincides flawlessly with why Zelda needed to seal herself away in a completely stagnant state to stave off the Imprisoned's return. Therefore, this supposition would have to predicate the idea that Hylia couldn't risk the probability of inadvertently summoning the Imprisoned by waiting at a later time to reincarnate, as her divine presence, let alone the exercise of her power, is collectively used to the Imprisoned's advantage. What seems like the most rational conclusion is that her presence would have to reincarnate from beyond the physical realm through which the Imprisoned is unable to detect, and that domain would be the aforementioned "place beyond time" thereof.

Now this is where the contingent of "atemporal characteristics", which is unbound by time and causality as well as Plato's theory of forms, speaks to the premise of this hypothesis. If the hypothetical conceptual substrate of what Hylia may be, inhabits a realm beyond time (and the Zelda series has portrayed and alluded to over 15 different realms throughout the franchise as noted earlier), then the substrate would have causal agency to the physical realm, via mediums, instantiated by the substrate and those mediums would be satisfactorily portrayed as the goddess statues in the physical realm. So in essence Hylia is still around post-reincarnation, but its through causal agency independent of the reincarnation from a higher plane of existence. That agency allows for Hylia to communicate and converse with people (including Zelda) of the physical realm from the conceptual realm, via, the goddess statues in a fairly similar method as to how Sahashrala converses with Link through the telepathic tiles from the Light World to the Dark World.

Now if we were to raise a thought experiment in saying that if multiple people across vast distances were speaking to the goddess statues simultaneously, would the statues be able to respond to each individual? Logically yes, as the method in question would discernibly be akin to a broadcast signal, which uses radio waves that travels at the speed of light. But because Hylia's hypothetical substrate is unbound by time, and therefore transcends causality to some extent, then her interaction/presence within the physical realm appeals to a sense of "omnipresence." This becomes really fascinating and thought-provoking if we add the myriad of dimensions/worlds of Zelda into this hypothesis. Taking this thought experiment further in entertaining atemporal characteristics by bringing other dimensions and worlds into the mix, requires the presupposition that the substrate is indeed omnipresent and atemporal. Using three premises with make-shift evidence in the series as a contingent to that, I think its possible to raise an argument in favor of the idea.



*Premise 1: The Goddess of Time may be atemporal*



To lay the groundwork for this premise, let's first revisit the scientific definition of time which is oriented around the theory of general & special relativity. In a nutshell, time dilation as highlighted by the theory of relativity illustrates that spacetime curvatures are induced by gravitational fields. The speed and/or velocity of an object accelerating closer to the speed of light then experiences time vastly different from that of an observer at rest, and since this phenomena is applied to the entirety of the universe, where every topological area of spacetime has their own reference frames, time then becomes subjective to the frame of reference of an observer, ergo, relativity. PH actually gives us a snippet of this real world phenomena, where Link's extensive journey in the Realm of the Ocean King only yields several minutes to have elapsed in Link's homeworld.

The key takeaway from this scientific delineation is the speed of light. As noted earlier, light speed is atemporal to the degree that it can't be measured in time; effectively meaning that its speed scales to infinity in duration, and that the duration of the moment of inception is zero since there is no acceleration. But space is unfathomably vast and there are multiple light sources coexisting in the universe, particularly stars and their orbiting planets that appeals to their own relative time. Using this as a parallel to spirits and lesser deities in Zelda, where time moves differently for these ethereal entities compared to humans, since their longevity is of enchanted origins, strikes a similar chord in the idea of atemporal multiplicity. The idea that multiple guardian deities/spirits with extended life spans coexist with other guardian deities in the same reality, are like how stars with their own solar systems are the benefactors of their neighboring 'hospitable' planets within the same galaxy. But those systems are exclusive to the providence of their own stars, our sun isn't providing light to exoplanets on the far side of the Milky Way (although it would be visible to potential inhabitants from hundreds of light years away, the key point here is that said planet isn't orbiting the sun).

This can be used as an analogy that several guardian deities/spirits are exclusive to their own realms. In fact, the Sols of the Twilight Realm are what Midna specifically attributes to the sun of the light world along with stating that they are the guardian deities of the Twilight Realm. The Sols, however, does not have any influence in the world of light (as that is more so ascribed to the Light Spirits) despite them being the imperative mainstay of sustenance for the Twilight Realm. This displays a clear distinction behind mutually exclusive guardian deities that may inhabit their own realms and may not exist in others. However, there is a deity that exists in two mutually exclusive worlds, and that is the Goddess of Time.

In MM we are introduced to a deity that has warrant over the flow of time, simply known generically as the Goddess of Time. Zelda states that Link playing the Song of Time elicits a response from the goddess:


ZELDA:
"The Goddess of Time is aiding you. If you play the Song of Time, she will aid you."

Interestingly enough the Goddess of Time is acknowledged in Termina as well, as noted by Tatl and an npc, with Termina being described as a parallel world:



TATL:
"Somebody! Anybody!!! Goddess of Time, help us please! We need more time!"


NPC:
"Only a little more than two days left...Oh, Goddess of Time, please save me..."



MAJORA'S MASK INSTRUCTION MANUAL:
"This is a kind of parallel world, similar but not quite the same as Hyrule, the setting of Ocarina of Time. The people Link meets on his journey, even though he has never met them before, feel as if he has met them somewhere else in this mysterious world."



Now admittedly, I'm not fully persuaded that Hylia is the purported Goddess of Time, but for the sake of this hypothesis it is necessary to posit that the Goddess of Time is at the least an instantiate of whatever theoretical conceptual substrate Hylia is. Nevertheless, Hylia's tangible form in the physical realm has warrant over time as evidenced by the Gates of Time, and the conceptual Hylia in the theoretical realm of forms is beyond time. Now digressing back to the philosophical facets of universals and possible worlds, time is a fixed metaphysical concept whose axioms are incontrovertibly true in all possible physical worlds. If Hylia truly is beyond time in the truest sense of the word as a concept, then her presence is that of an omnipresent force that can interact with all physical worlds that, although may experience the concept of time differently, is banded together under her ontological significance. The Goddess of Time seems to satisfy this approach purely through her revered presence in both Hyrule and Termina.

Now the possibility stands that the Goddess of Time, much like several npcs in Termina, may have a parallel counterpart in that world. However, the biggest caveat to that is the Ocarina of Time itself. When Link retrieves the Ocarina of Time from Skull Kid, he travels back to the past of the first day of his experience in Termina. However, it's in that instance that Skull Kid no longer is in possession of the Ocarina of Time which in contrast to Link's first day, prior to retrieving the Ocarina of Time, Skull Kid has it; there would logically have to be two Ocarina of Times existing simultaneously (one in Link's possession and another with Skull Kid) but there isn't.



This depicts a strong indication of atemporal characteristics that are unbound by causality, which would have to be the nature of something beyond time. Since the Song of Time is constituent to the Goddess of Time, the atemporal characteristics it displays would more than likely be extrapolated to the goddess herself, which denotes that she too is unbound by time and causality and can exist anywhere that harbors the axioms of time.



*Premise 2: Hatred is Demise's conceptual form and has many instantiations*



Demise the Demon King is the progenitor of all demons in the Zelda series, and is a anomaly unlike anything ever witnessed in the series. Upon his dying breath, he decreed that his hatred would follow the spirit of the hero and the blood of the goddess until the end of time:


DEMISE:
"My hatred...the curse of the Demon Tribe. They shall continuously go on reincarnating until the end of all times. Do not forget it! I shall repeat it!! You people shall...You people who possess the blood of the Goddess and the soul of hero shall...forever be unable to escape from this curse! This hatred and grudge...its evolution shall forever painfully wander across this bloodstained dark sea along with you lowlifes forever."


FI:
"A totally overwhelming existence which has overcome time itself and is the origin of the ever so present demons. It is said that its form varies according to the era and the one who witnesses it."

Looking at this with more objective scrutiny relative to Plato's ideologies, the description of Demise's form connotes incorporeality that interacts with the world in several chronological eras. It goes further to assert that the incorporeality not only assumes different forms but is superior to time and is subjective to people's own interpretations. This is a near, if not perfect, description that aligns extraordinarily well with Plato's theory of forms; the notion that a conceptual substrate is the harbinger or metaphysical basis behind the existence of physical objects in the physical realm, and is unbound by time. This posits very strong implications that what we see as Demise in the physical realm, is just an instantiation of Demise's highest form that exists beyond time: Hatred.

This hatred can manifest anywhere at anytime and can instantiate lower forms of the concept into existence such as demons, which SS makes well known that demons are spawned mostly from hatred and malice and relies on hatred to persist in the physical realm. Moreover its also important to reiterate that hatred is a medium for power and can manifest in the form of malice to circumvent barriers through which the source of its emissions are hindered by. These instantiations are generally what the series describes as bunshins or avatars/incarnations/offshoots. In ALttP, Agahnim is described as a "bunshin" which is essentially a copy, though in this case more of an avatar, of Ganon's own soul in a nutshell that exists independently of its source that is Ganon. But the more prominent examples of Ganon's bunshins that are instantiated by hatred is ironically found in both Hyrule Warriors games as well as base BoTW.

The synopsis of the original Hyrule Warriors tells us that Ganon's soul was fragmented into 4 components and sealed across the timeline. But when Cia's negative emotions sprang forth out of what could be interpreted as harbored hatred against Zelda's perpetually intertwined fate with Link, a projection of Ganon's malice is conjured and seizes the opportunity to take control despite not only being firmly sealed away, but the respective seals still being intact. We actually witness something fairly similar in BoTW with Calamity Ganon's malice. Although the hatred of a host is not involved with the conjuring of Ganon's malice, it is plausible to infer that the malice of Ganon that enshrouds Hyrule Castle was summoned twice and are independent of one another. The first instance occurs 100 years ago during the Great Calamity, where Zelda took matters into her own hands and sealed the malice away, but Ganon's malice spumes were able corrupt Sheikah technology, which is thought to be infused with ancient energy that derives from the power of the gods. This harks back to the contingent that the Imprisoned siphons off of the divine emanation of the consecrated force from the goddess by using hatred as its catalyst, and uses it to make improvements to its body to grow stronger whilst sealed away. This would largely suggest that although Zelda managed to seal away the malice, Ganon's ace in the hole was divine emanation found in herself and Sheikah technology, to which Ganon's malice exploits to rebuild a body for itself during its incubation. The second occasion occurs when Link awakens after his 100 year stasis. When Link activates the Great Plateau Tower, all other presiding towers and shrines are activated from a transmission signal to the central control unit in Hyrule Castle. This chain reaction must have triggered a surplus of divine force through which conjured Ganon's malice as a response out of hatred, but the malice state is independent of the tangible form incubating:



MASTER WORKS/CREATING A CHAMPION:
"This is the state of Ganon after it has been confined by the power within Princess Zelda. It writhes around Hyrule Castle like a hazy mist, but this is not its true form, as Calamity Ganon's physical body has been sealed inside a cocoon. Its existence is an emanation of its gathered malice and fury.

This application of bunshins/avatars/incarnations extends to AoC as well, as the malice dispensed from the corrupted guardian follows Terrako to the past, corrupting the Terrako of that era by becoming Harbinger Ganon and then proceeds to spawn an influx of demons thereof, including lesser incarnations such as the blights from its corrupted state. What's especially interesting that seems to be the thread that ties it together is that the malice is likely emitted from the source that is Ganondorf's body in the sequel to BoTW. ALttP already distinguishes that such a duality can exist between Ganondorf and an avatar of his spirit, and even Hyrule Warriors portrays such a duality as well.




All in all, this would encapsulate the axioms of Demise's hatred to be a multifaceted array of different aspects that establishes it to be inescapable, perpetual, evolutionary, and highly diverse. All of it melds remarkably well with Plato's theory of forms in proposing that Demise as we know him is the literal embodiment of the concept of hatred, where the concept is Demise in his highest form.



*Premise 3: Zelda and Hilda may be one and the same*



This is by far the most radical proposition in this hypothesis and yet, due to its merit, I don't think that its too far-fetched. In fact I think there is very compelling evidence to this supposition, that most people may not have initially considered. At first glance, similar to the doppelganger parallelism found in Termina, one would immediately think that the appearance of Hilda in Lorule is that of a parallel counterpart to Zelda in Hyrule. Although this is the case, I think the relationship between the two extends beyond generic counterpart comparisons, and that they are interlinked by both fate and spirit to such a degree where they are essentially the same person.

In ALBW, Hilda engineers the devious plot to steal Hyrule's native Triforce to take the place of Lorule's own. She uses Yuga to apprehend Hyrule's sages in order to release Ganon's seal to claim the Triforce of Power, whilst luring Link to awaken the Triforce of Courage under this hidden agenda. When Link finally learns what her true motives are, all the pieces of her plan have come to pass in assembling Hyrule's chosen bearers of the Triforce for her to take. At the climax of ALBW, Hilda is seen confronting Zelda's portrait and extracts the Triforce of Wisdom from her, then something really mind-boggling happens: The Triforce of Wisdom embeds itself in Hilda. This scenario would initially come off as being a bit miniscule without much meaning, but quite the contrary actually, as this poses ample significance with very strong implications about Hilda and Zelda's fate through the Triforce of Wisdom.

tenor.gif


Firstly, we are given context regarding chosen bearers and the circumstances related to them in OoT, where Sheik reveals how they are regarded as "chosen by destiny" vicariously from the Triforce embedding itself within their respective recipients. I've made a previous theory that outlines the dynamism of what being a chosen bearer of the Triforce actually means to their respective bearers. You can view that in a document I made to get a firm grasp on the details [Skip to the part that says "The Triforce parts of those chosen by Destiny"]. To give an overview of that thesis here, chosen bearers of the Triforce are elected by virtue of their respective destiny/fate imparted to them by the Goddesses. That fate endows upon them "exclusive" properties and attributes pertinent to what they are ordained to do/become. For example, the Triforce of Courage awakens Link as the "Hero Chosen by the Goddesses" in TP, with the sages remarking that he is guided by fate. The attributes ascribed to Link from this awakening grants him the ability to wield the Master Sword without the necessity of gaining relics won through excessive divine trials too obtain it (i.e. Pendants of Virtue, Goddess Pearls, Spirit Orbs, etc) as he is already distinguished as the legendary hero from the Triforce of Courage's expression of Link's fate.

200px-Tp_triforcecourage.png


3f729f321c43afeeefd94b0310f7cf07.gif



A scenario with a similar magnitude is seen in the TWW with the Triforce of Wisdom. Tetra is a descendant of the long inert royal family of Hyrule with no knowledge of her royal heritage. Moreover, she has a distinctive personality and livelihood in great contrast to the lineage she hails from, to the point where she can justifiably be seen as her own character separate from Zelda. But when she comes into contact with the Triforce of Wisdom in its full splendor, her identity and appearance is immediately defaulted to the appearance of her ancestors: Princess Zelda. The Triforce of Wisdom proceeds to embed itself in Zelda and she utters the words "my fate" in disbelief. The fate of Princess Zelda is oriented around her position as Hyrule's chief authoritative figure (both mystically and physically), and with such a position follows a bevy of attributes and administration like being the leader of the seven sages of Hyrule in OoT, or summoning the light spirits to her command in TP, all of which Zelda was in possession of the Triforce of Wisdom in those instances.

In the case of The Wind Waker, Zelda was portrayed as having the ability to pick up the Master Sword, which has been strongly reinforced throughout the series to be a weapon exclusively reserved for the legendary hero. This provides some compelling insight to the possibility that the root origins of the Tetra turned Zelda from the Triforce of Wisdom, is traced back to the mystical prowess of the Hylia reincarnated Zelda who infused the Master Sword with the ultimate power to repel evil. Given that this feat is also repeated in BoTW, when Zelda awakens her divine powers derivative from Hylia, would suggest that the Triforce of Wisdom defaults these powers to Zelda as well, per the high merits of her fate.

NPMbz2G_d.jpg





With this serving as a major contingent, Hyrule's native Triforce of Wisdom acknowledging Hilda as the chosen bearer sports monumental implications to argue for this hypothesis. But let's first look at the caveats that would challenge this.

*What if the ToW embedding itself in Hilda is just a coincidence? * Given lore discrepancies in Zelda is highly widespread, I wouldn't exactly rule this out, but the connotations seen in TWW and TP regarding the fate of chosen bearers seems much more prevalent. It also should be noted that when Hilda extracted the ToW from Zelda and had it embed itself within her, she wasn't able to do the same thing to Yuganon who has the ToP despite him being in a weakened state after battling Link; she urges him to surrender it to her instead. Similarly, Yuganon isn't able to extract the ToW from Hilda and have it embed itself within him, but rather he is forced to absorb Hilda wholeheartedly in order to obtain it. Lastly just for good measure, although I don't endorse Hyrule Warriors as a canon game, It does nonetheless stay true to the principle of chosen bearers, despite its other canonical inconsistencies. So, it seems improbable for this as a coincidence to be the case at hand.

tenor.gif




*What if the ToW is responding to Hilda's fate, because she is the parallel counterpart to Zelda, but not connected to Zelda spiritually?* Although feasible as well, I too consider this to be less probable than the idea that she and Zelda are one and the same based on the grounds of three strong proponents regarding Triforce stipulations and attributes:


  • The Triforce is omniscient: ALttP tells us that the Triforce is an omnipotent and an omniscient relic, which is the crux/major variable behind how the ToW would decide to react to Hilda based upon the following proponents.




  • Chosen bearers and their ordained fates: There is exclusive correlations between the Triforce parts and their respective bearer's fate. For example, in TP the ToC designates and defaults Link as the legendary hero by virtue of his preordained fate derived from the basis of who he is, who he will be, and what he will accomplish. If it were such an exchange that the Triforce parts could embed themselves in parallel counterpart recipients different from the indingenous ones attached to the Triforce parts of its native reality, then such a thing denotes that Ravio could be the bearer of Hyrule's ToC based purely on the observation of him being the counterpart to Link. That seems HIGHLY unlikely solely because Ravio has a cowardly disposition.




  • Usage of the Triforce is limited to its current master, unless otherwise disposed of: In ALttP, an npc in the Dark World utters that usage of the Triforce is reserved only to its current user unless the user becomes deceased:



TREE NEAR THE PALACE OF DARKNESS:
My, a new face. I suppose you too came to this world seeking the Golden Power, but you know the Golden Power was a power that only the one who first touched it can use"





ESSENCE OF THE TRIFORCE:
"However, now that Ganon, who touched the Triforce, has fallen, the World of Darkness shall disappear as well. The Triforce is waiting for a new owner. The Golden Power is in your hands."

Admittedly this would have to presuppose that this stipulation extends to individual Triforce parts, but assuming it does then it follows through. Zelda is still alive in the instance of Hilda extracting the ToW and is still the rightful chosen bearer, but it recognizes Hilda as the new owner regardlessly.



To that end, based upon how subjective the ToW's omniscience is imposed upon the stipulations it must carry out, I think its quite rational to infer that Zelda and Hilda may indeed be one and the same from their position as the chosen bearer of Hyrule's ToW. However such a connection between the two would have to be ingrained from an antecedent force/entity. This is what I postulate could be Hylia's conceptual form, which is beyond time and can instill causal agency to infinite worlds that instantiates that essence into being. As radical as this may sound, we are offered some semblance of this kind of application through Demise's hatred, which largely conforms to Plato's theory of forms in the idea that Hatred is a metaphysical concept that even the game itself implicitly affirms is beyond time. That hatred is able to instantiate many forms from higher to lower manifestations with Demise (primary instantiation) spawning incarnations like Ganondorf (higher form), to other diverged incarnations/avatars/bunshins (Agahnim, Blights, Harbinger) coexisting with him that later spawns even more instantiations in the form of demons (lower form). I think that provides very promising grounds for this hypothesis to be a very thought provoking theory that could potentially be true.



**In Summary of the hypothesis**

Hylia's true form is a metaphysical concept that lies within the realm of forms beyond time. It is an omnipresent metaphysical anomaly able to interact with the physical realm through causal agency (anything that can act as a medium). This provides a satisfactory solution to the duality between Zelda and Hylia coexisting in the physical realm despite Hylia reincarnating into the former. In addition to stressing the contextual axioms of beyond time, it also connotes atemporal characteristics that extends to infinity in the truest sense of the word, which includes worlds. As such, Hylia's conceptual form extends to Lorule as well, which may have contained a corporeal Hylia equivalent at some point that gave rise to Hilda through which she and Zelda are connected to the conceptual substrate. Below are two comprehensive models that illustrates this hypothesis with a little more clarity:




 

Dio

~ It's me, Dio!~
Joined
Jul 6, 2011
Location
England
Gender
Absolute unit
That was a very interesting read. I love the thought that went into coming up with this. I don't think this was necessarily Aounumas ideas and that this is a way of making sense of things which they didn't bother to think about properly but if anyone at Nintendo sees this then they should bear it in mind I say.

You could make a video of this, btw I think it could be popular if well made and would work well for that format.

I noticed that you did get the speed of light wrong. Probably a mistype, it's about 300,000kmph rather than 300.
 
Joined
Oct 10, 2017
That was an enjoyable theory to go through. I will say, though, that the speed of light is nowhere close to infinity. As Dio mentioned, we have a very precise value for it, and it is worthy to note that it has been proven that light and gravity waves travel at the same speed. Some scientists are calling it the speed of causality. But, that's more of a side issue.

There are two ways of thinking about the Hylia's duality, that come to mind. One fits well with your theory, and one diverges a little. It is common knowledge that the series' lore was heavily inspired by Christianity. It's not a big stretch to place the goddess, Zelda, and the voice from the statues in comparison to the Christian trinity, where the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are all separate entities, yet they are all God. Here is the image from Wikipedia. It looks very similar to your model 1A. If there is another aspect to the Hylia that we have yet to recognize as such, the diagram would be even closer. This also identifies Zelda as a Christ like character, which some might find a little too on the nose.
1200px-Shield-Trinity-Scutum-Fidei-English.svg.png


The other hinges more on the goddess of/beyond time. If she does indeed exist out of the frame of time, while being able to affect time, her existence does not follow causality as we understand it. She would be able to view all of history as we can view an entire comic page. The characters on that page only experience events in the direction of cause and effect. The reader is free to look at the last panel first, read it backwards, or in any order they like. they can even broaden their view to appreciate the page as a whole. If we say that Hylia needs to no longer be a god, to become Zelda, as in the most absolute way, then Hylia would have already had the benefit of being able to interact with all of time before changing her existence. It would be akin to a time traveler visiting all of the key moments in human history, before settling down with a woman named Eve, to kick off everything he visited. This unfortunately makes Zelda's reincarnation the death spiral of the goddess.

I wouldn't be surprised if the truth is somewhere in between. After all, even if Hylia does step down from her divinity, to become Zelda, that is a temporal event. With her existing out of the bounds of time, the version of her that existed beyond time would still be there, ever present. Her beginning and end would not be causally tied to the events within the framework of Link's space time.

As for the link between Zelda and Hilda, I would approach it from another direction. The presence of a Triforce suggests it's creation by the Golden Goddesses. If they are able to create multiple realms (what I prefer to think of as universes, rather than dimensions), it follows that Hylia is able to access those realms, as well. If she is able to interact with them all the same, and the blend option is true, also indicative of your model 1B, then it would be relatively simple for her to have an avatar in each of them.

As for the time travel in Majora's Mask, I have theorized that the game uses Time echoes, and so do the time shift stones from Skyward Sword. Basically, it's not true time travel. it is easier to see in Skyward Sword, how the conditions of the past are replicated. Then when Link picks a flower, the actual flower from the past was not picked, but events from here forward progresses as though it was picked by Link in the present. The same is true for growing impossible trees instantly. It helps to explain how time travel, in Majora's Mask, mostly effects Link, and why there is only one ocarina. In this case, it is Link that is being sent back as echoes.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Jan 11, 2021
Gender
man
This is the best post I have seen on this site.
*Premise 1: The Goddess of Time may be atemporal*
I'm not sure how to tackle this other than to break it down by premise. The Goddess of Time may be atemporal, but to assume atemporality (and to therefore assume a lack of cause and effect) is to fundamentally change the fabric of the spacetime continuum, as presented, rendering all prophecies, future-casting, and physics based on that cause and effect structure irrelevant. It may be that Termina exists out-of-time, the evidence you provided is decent for that conclusion, but to say that Hyrule is also outside of the temporal bounds of cause and effect seems unlikely. However, the goddess herself, assuming she is a manifestation of or tethered to Termina, is likely atemporal to be able to interact with the abstract concept in any meaningful way.

*Premise 2: Hatred is Demise's conceptual form and has many instantiations*
I would use Malice, but this is almost certain, and all your evidence supports this conclusion and there is little counterevidence against this.

*Premise 3: Zelda and Hilda may be one and the same*
This, I don't think, is necessary for your Goddess of Time/Hylia theories and is much more appropriate as a facet of Lorule Theory, but nonetheless I don't think your evidence is convincing to conclude that Zelda and Hilda are any more the same than Ganon and Yuga or Link and Ravio. Lorule, while parallel, is notably and specifically separate from Hyrule. There is also something to be said about the Grim Slate in Lorule's Sacred Realm being the transient connection and cause of the fissures that connect Hyrule and Lorule...but Zelda and Hilda are definitely different.

Hylia's true form is a metaphysical concept that lies within the realm of forms beyond time. It is an omnipresent metaphysical anomaly able to interact with the physical realm through causal agency (anything that can act as a medium). This provides a satisfactory solution to the duality between Zelda and Hylia coexisting in the physical realm despite Hylia reincarnating into the former. In addition to stressing the contextual axioms of beyond time, it also connotes atemporal characteristics that extends to infinity in the truest sense of the word, which includes worlds. As such, Hylia's conceptual form extends to Lorule as well, which may have contained a corporeal Hylia equivalent at some point that gave rise to Hilda through which she and Zelda are connected to the conceptual substrate. Below are two comprehensive models that illustrates this hypothesis with a little more clarity:
Hylia's "gratitude" (from gratitude crystals), an omnipresent metaphysical atemporal entity, can take hold of people just as Demise's "hatred" (again, I would use malice) can. This seems highly likely. However, the connections to Lorule are kinda flimsy. I don't think the Three Golden Goddesses made the Triforce in Lorule, and thus, aside from the concept of gratitude being fundamentally different, they are using entirely different concepts of being (theoretically the opposite of Power, Wisdom, and Courage). Thus, no matter Hylia's transcendent nature, whatever "she" is remains a byproduct of the goddesses that created her.

Lmk if I missed anything or you disagree, but I do really love this theory.
 
Joined
Oct 10, 2017
Hylia's "gratitude" (from gratitude crystals), an omnipresent metaphysical atemporal entity, can take hold of people just as Demise's "hatred" (again, I would use malice) can. This seems highly likely. However, the connections to Lorule are kinda flimsy. I don't think the Three Golden Goddesses made the Triforce in Lorule, and thus, aside from the concept of gratitude being fundamentally different, they are using entirely different concepts of being (theoretically the opposite of Power, Wisdom, and Courage). Thus, no matter Hylia's transcendent nature, whatever "she" is remains a byproduct of the goddesses that created her.

I would have to disagree with the second half of this statement. There is little direct evidence, either way. We know that the Golden Goddesses didn't spend much time in Hyrule. They shaped and cultivated it, created the Triforce, then split. I doubt they simply became divine couch potatoes. The best clue we have, all be it not a very conclusive clue, is that the shape/general scheme of the Triforce is the same. If the relic of ultimate power was created by different gods, I would think they wouldn't copy someone else's homework. Being so similar, I find it more likely that it was the same handy work. If nothing else, the wish at the end makes the "new" Triforce made (or reassembled as I theorize it) by the power of the Golden Goddesses. Games that include other guardian deities, or religions, tend to make it apparent, such as in Majora's Mask. In fact, I have long theorized that Lorule and Termina are part of the same realm. I don't remember if it was a theory, or somewhere official (it's been a while), but I do remember something about the Stone Tower having something to do with turning their back on the goddesses. It's not much to go on, but I do think what little is available suggests that they are the same creator gods.

Edit: this actually reminds me of an earlier thought, that I did not include in my first reply.
In ALBW, Hilda engineers the devious plot to steal Hyrule's native Triforce to take the place of Lorule's own. She uses Yuga to apprehend Hyrule's sages in order to release Ganon's seal to claim the Triforce of Power, whilst luring Link to awaken the Triforce of Courage under this hidden agenda. When Link finally learns what her true motives are, all the pieces of her plan have come to pass in assembling Hyrule's chosen bearers of the Triforce for her to take. At the climax of ALBW, Hilda is seen confronting Zelda's portrait and extracts the Triforce of Wisdom from her, then something really mind-boggling happens: The Triforce of Wisdom embeds itself in Hilda. This scenario would initially come off as being a bit miniscule without much meaning, but quite the contrary actually, as this poses ample significance with very strong implications about Hilda and Zelda's fate through the Triforce of Wisdom.

Another solution is that the magic holding Zelda in the painting holds her between life and death. It would be enough to to allow the transfer, as we see it happen.
 
Last edited:

Users who are viewing this thread

Top Bottom