• Welcome to ZD Forums! You must create an account and log in to see and participate in the Shoutbox chat on this main index page.

Spoiler The Hero of Winds is related to a past Link after all!

Turon

The Golden God
Joined
Sep 28, 2013
Location
The Sacred Realm
The current theory is readable here: http://zeldadungeon.net/forum/threa...past-link-after-all.45737/page-2#post-1001241
The original theory is in the spoiler below.
The HoT returned to the AT. I assume it was because he wanted recognition for defeating Ganon, based on how the Hero's Shade in TP is a manifestation of the HoT's regrets, and to pass on his bloodline, but it is truly unknown at this point. In TWW, TKoRL told the HoW that before the HoT departed, he shattered the ToC into 8 pieces, however, he did not before he returned to the past, as we can see at the end of OoT. If he broke it by leaving, we don't see that as well. Also, although the Zelda of OoT returned the MS to it's pedestal after the HoT went back in time, it is foretold only the HoT (or his bloodline) could draw it from it's pedestal, so how could the HoW end up drawing it and it end up in HC under the GS in the first place? It also lends credibility to that the HoW is a descendant of the HoT, which further supports the motive for the HoT's return. The HC in TWW couldn't have been built over the ToT, because neither were on a cliffside of a giant body of water at the time the HoT left the AT. Geographical changes are impossible because it takes millennia for such huge changes to occur, and artifacts, such as the Scroll of the Hero of Time, would have disintegrated during that time, yet it didn't. It is more than likely that someone of the bloodline or the HoT himself moved it; probably for better protection from corrupt hands looking to release Ganon
This post is expanded upon all throughout this thread, so check out the other posts for expansions and more elaborate explanations behind the theory before posting any questions or disagreements. Thanks for reading!
 
Last edited:

Locke

Hegemon
Site Staff
Joined
Nov 24, 2009
Location
Redmond, Washington
In TWW, The King of Red Lions told the Hero of Winds that before the Hero of Time left, he shattered the Triforce of Courage into 8 pieces, however, he did not before he returned to the past, as we can see at the end of OoT, and how it was passed on to the Hero of Twilight.
What happened on the CT (the ToC being passed to TP-Link) is irrelevant to the AT. When Link left the AT, the ToC basically split and scattered itself. It didn't follow him to the CT (instead he got the CT's version of the ToC) so it no longer had a holder.

Also, although the Zelda of OoT returned the Master Sword to it's pedestal after the Hero of Time went back in time, it is foretold ONLY the Hero of Time (or his bloodline) could REMOVE it from it's pedestal, so how could it end up in Hyrule Castle under the Great Sea? It is not possible that this Hyrule Castle was built over the Temple of Time, because neither were on a cliffside, so it is more than likely the Hero of Time moved it for better protection from corrupt hands looking to release Ganon.
Actually the ToT is on a cliffside after OoT. Remember, Ganondorf destroyed Hyrule Castle leaving a large crater (nearby a river I might add). The depictions of the Sages are also telling.
 

Turon

The Golden God
Joined
Sep 28, 2013
Location
The Sacred Realm
What happened on the CT (the ToC being passed to TP-Link) is irrelevant to the AT.
That is correct, and has been reflected in the original post.
When Link left the AT, the ToC basically split and scattered itself. It didn't follow him to the CT (instead he got the CT's version of the ToC) so it no longer had a holder.
Although he would have the ToC in the CT, the lore doesn't recognize that the ToC in the AT shattered itself. It is still said that The Hero of Time shattered it before he left.
Actually the ToT is on a cliffside after OoT. Remember, Ganondorf destroyed Hyrule Castle leaving a large crater (nearby a river I might add).
The final dungeon is by that giant hole, not a long trench, and the ToT is still not next to it, and in TWW, Hyrule Castle is on a cliffside of a big body of water.
The depictions of the Sages are also telling.
Elaborate.
 
Last edited:

Zurriel

BeStrongandofgoodCourage!
Joined
Apr 6, 2013
Location
Hazzlehurst GA
I like the theory.
To add to it I would say that the castle is most likely rebuilt after the events of OoT. But Temple of Time is intact, leaving no reason for the Master Sword to be moved, so it is logical to have Link being the reason for moving it by returning to the AT.

A couple things here.
How would Link return to the AT? As far as we know there is no way to jump timelines. Also, I'm pretty sure no one actually knew what timeline they're in, or that there was even more then one to begin with.

The sword was also moved from the temple on the other timelines. In both TP and ALTTP we see the sword is moved to the lost woods
(I guess you could say in TP that the temple itself was moved... ah who cares)
So unless Link was timeline hoping for some reason, there had to be another way to move the sword, my guess would be the sages could move it around, just not wield it.

And maybe Zelda didn't put the sword back in the temple of time, she could have also waited for the castle to be rebuilt and stuck it there.

This one isn't really important in disproving the theory, so it can be ignored. But if the Hero of Time did return to the AT, why didn't he stop Ganondorf?
 

Turon

The Golden God
Joined
Sep 28, 2013
Location
The Sacred Realm
To add to it I would say that the castle is most likely rebuilt after the events of OoT. But Temple of Time is intact, leaving no reason for the Master Sword to be moved, so it is logical to have Link being the reason for moving it by returning to the AT.
Quite
How would Link return to the AT? As far as we know there is no way to jump timelines.
The Hero of Time still had the OoT in the CT, and when the MS is drawn from its pedestal or returned in OoT, He traveled back and forth between the CT and AT.
Also, I'm pretty sure no one actually knew what timeline they're in, or that there was even more then one to begin with.
The Zelda and Link of OoT knew of the timeline. Zelda did send him back after all!
The sword was also moved from the temple on the other timelines. In both TP and ALTTP we see the sword is moved to the lost woods (I guess you could say in TP that the temple itself was moved... ah who cares) So unless Link was timeline hopping for some reason, there had to be another way to move the sword, my guess would be the sages could move it around, just not wield it.
I believe there was ToT before ALttP and it was the same one from OoT, but it fell apart over time, leaving only the MS and its pedestal by the time the Hero of Dreams retrieved it. And in TP , the ToT in OoT was demolished and rebuilt in the Lost Woods. Since the ToT was nearly gone at the time the Hero of Twilight retrieved the MS, the Hero of Time was probably alive when it was rebuilt and moved it.
And maybe Zelda didn't put the sword back in the temple of time, she could have also waited for the castle to be rebuilt and stuck it there.
No, because the Hyrule Historia stated she returned it to the ToT
This one isn't really important in disproving the theory, so it can be ignored. But if the Hero of Time did return to the AT, why didn't he stop Ganondorf?
I don't think Ganon was resurrected yet at the time Link returned.
 

Zurriel

BeStrongandofgoodCourage!
Joined
Apr 6, 2013
Location
Hazzlehurst GA
The Zelda and Link of OoT knew of the timeline. Zelda did send him back after all!

Um...No, Zelda and Link did not know. As TheBlueReptile said, the events of Oot time all happened on one timeline. Zelda sent Link to the past and that was all she did. The timeline didn't spit until Link changed the future by warning the King of Hyrule of what Ganondorf was planning.
So there was no way she could know of the split... unless she figured it out later when Link never returned. Not that matters, as there was still nothing she could do about it. Meanwhile how would Link even know of the split, as far as he was concerned, he was just in the past of the first timeline.

Did Hyrule Historia really say that? Great, now I got to go reread it. :)
 

Turon

The Golden God
Joined
Sep 28, 2013
Location
The Sacred Realm
I'll start here. If he did jump back to the AT, how did he do so? Similarly, he would have had to jump back to the CT eventually. If he were to jump back to a timeline for the sake of recognition, why would he then return to a timeline in which his most heroic deeds never even occurred? We know he would have had to return at some point due to his death occurring in the CT.
I think he still cared about the CT, so after continuing the bloodline in the AT (I'll get to that in a minute) he went back to the CT to continue it there as well.
Daphnes is here reciting a legend. Nintendo have themselves acknowledged that the oral tradition is "is one of the least reliable methods of information retention and transmission" (this was even alluded to in WW, when the opening credits state of OoT that "This boy's tale was passed down through the generations until it became legend."). As such, KoRL's words have to be taken as representative of fact rather than fact itself, unless proven otherwise of course. Based on what we see in-game, it's much more likely that the Triforce split following Zelda's sending of Link to the CT, not because Link himself intended or indeed caused the split himself.
Given that this event occurred with a mere two witnesses, it's not surprising that it was exaggerated and inflated so that the Hero had a much more prominent role by the time it reached WW Link's ears.
You have to remember that Daphnes was around before the Great Flood, so that lowers the time between the Hero of Time's departure and the time the Hero of Winds heard the tale by centuries. Also, Zelda, being the only other witness, and with her possessing the ToW, I doubt she "exaggerated" the details of the Hero of Time's departure when the tale of it was scribed on the scroll. (Which makes it written not oral (^-^))
Geography is never a great place to look to when it comes to theory. The series takes a great many liberties when it's comes to locations and placements on the map, and considering the Hyrule of Wind Waker exists thousands of years (the amount of time is questionable, but it's undoubtedly a considerable period) after OoT and has since had an ocean dropped on top of it, surely a few geographical changes are to be expected?
The HH lists the time between the Hero of Time's departure and the Great Flood as only "Many years later" and it takes a LONG time for such huge geographical changes to occur. I just don't think "many years" is enough time. Also, Hyrule was frozen in time and therefore not affected by the Great Flood.
I'd also be careful with how you view this quote "Only one worthy of the title of "Hero of Time" can pull it from the Pedestal of Time", which I'm assuming is the one you are referring to in the above. Considering a few various points, it's safe to assume that it isn't permanently the case that only the Hero of Time can remove it from it's pedestal. The first glaring one being that WW Link was not of the Hero of Time's bloodline and instead had to redefine what was meant by the "True Hero." Note that he even drew the Master Sword before being truly accepted as a hero by the Gods. Whether this is because the sword only had to be removed from the pedestal once to be accessible or because it wasn't at full power prior to Link's awakening of the sages in WW is debatable. But the point still remains that people can, and at least one person did, remove the Master Sword from the pedestal despite not being the Hero of Time.
I said only the Hero of Time or his bloodline, could wield the MS, and I believe the Hero of Winds is his kin. When he returned to the AT, I think he passed on his bloodline, but he scattered the ToC because he knew he wouldn't be around to pass on his knowledge, so he felt the next Hero had to earn it.
Um...No, Zelda and Link did not know. As TheBlueReptile said, the events of Oot time all happened on one timeline. Zelda sent Link to the past and that was all she did. The timeline didn't spit until Link changed the future by warning the King of Hyrule of what Ganondorf was planning. So there was no way she could know of the split... unless she figured it out later when Link never returned.
I think the timeline split the first time he drew the MS. In the HH, it tells the era on the side of the page, and it goes back and forth between the AT and CT when he travels time.
Meanwhile how would Link even know of the split, as far as he was concerned, he was just in the past of the first timeline.
I think he knew about the split because us players figured it out so he COULD have figured it out too.

My god, this took so long to post. Please keep the responses short next time. Haha.
 
Last edited:

Locke

Hegemon
Site Staff
Joined
Nov 24, 2009
Location
Redmond, Washington
"Adult Era" and "Child Era" don't refer to their respective timelines as a whole. The timeline on page 69 shows both eras existing on the unified timeline before the split, as well as each existing on its respective branch. Page 91 tells you to turn to page 110 to read about what happens after Link returns to the Child Era, not to page 85. The split is clearly described here to occur during OoT's ending.

If the Child Era and Adult Era were on different timelines, how does the former affect the latter (e.g. magic beans, characters he meets)?
 

Turon

The Golden God
Joined
Sep 28, 2013
Location
The Sacred Realm
"Adult Era" and "Child Era" don't refer to their respective timelines as a whole. The timeline on page 69 shows both eras existing on the unified timeline before the split, as well as each existing on its respective branch. Page 91 tells you to turn to page 110 to read about what happens after Link returns to the Child Era, not to page 85. The split is clearly described here to occur during OoT's ending.

If the Child Era and Adult Era were on different timelines, how does the former affect the latter (e.g. magic beans, characters he meets)?
Those are some good points. I rethought my theory and I think that when Zelda split the timeline by sending Link back to the CT, and when she closed the Door of Time after returning the MS to it's pedestal in the AT, that the timelines were cut from each other permanently. When Link returned the MS and then closed the Door of Time in the CT, that the doors synced, so if the door was opened again in either timeline, they would be connected again without action in one timeline affecting the other. So when the Hero of Time reopened the Door of Time to go back to the AT, he connected the timelines again without realizing they were split in the first place.
 
Last edited:

Turon

The Golden God
Joined
Sep 28, 2013
Location
The Sacred Realm
We're delving very heavily into the realm of speculation here.
That's all the Zelda Theory forum is!
Of course Zelda wouldn't have exaggerated it. But the tale passing from person to person would have inevitably led to some changes in there. Given that the Hero of Time became such a largely known tale in Hyrule, it wouldn't be unlikely for people to embelish the story to make more of a drama out of it. We see examples of this with real world historical kings, in which supposed "eyewitness" accounts of their battles are far more exciting than proven actual events. I'd like to know what scroll you're referring to here. If you mean the scroll that WW opens with, that is not implied to by an actual item. Merely a storytelling technique to get the point dynamically across to us. Much in the same manner that Skyward Sword opened with a series of paintings.
The bottom of page 122 in the HH says the prologue of TWW was "handed down in the form of a scroll." It also says it was "passed on from generation to generation," so the scroll does exist and it could have been around since around the time the HoT left.
And yes, you're right, Daphnes was around before the Great Flood. But we're still left in the lurch as to how much time passed between OoT and the flood. Which I'll get to later. "Many years later" could refer to pretty much any amount of time. I don't get how this term, which we even use today to sometimes refer to the passing of centuries and millennia, means the legend could not have changed in such a way.To further this point, take this extract from page 122 of (the Japanese version of) HH, "However, enough time passes that the service of the Hero of Time fades into legend".
IRL, we have legends that come into being everyday, with popular modern ones such as bigfoot and the Loch Ness Monster. "Enough time passes" doesn't make sense, as legends take the blink of an eye to materialize, and barely longer to circulate.
Yes, I was also referring to his bloodline as well as the actual hero. You're going to have a hard time proving this connection without using circular logic. Especially considering that I have already explained both the reasons why someone not of the bloodline could draw the sword, and that WW Link had to prove himself a hero rather than being chosen as one.
I've said before that I believe the HoW was part of the bloodline, and that is the only viable reason you have supporting that "someone not of the bloodline" could draw the MS. Every other Link was of the bloodline, and no one other than a Link has drawn it.
I'm going to have to ask where you're getting this from then. It certainly doesn't depict Link jumping between the timelines.
Timeline_Hyrule_Historia.jpg
. As you can see, the split(s) between the AT and the CT only occur at the end of OoT, with the defeated timeline branching off just before with the death of Link at the hands of Ganondorf. The AT and CT are branches of the original Unified Timeline. As Locke has since explained, they do not exist separately until OoT ends. I can't tell by your subsequent response to him whether or not you yet understand this or still believe he was jumping back and forth.
I can see how that may confuse you. When I said it was shown in the timeline, I meant like how pages 87 and 88 show how the eras changed on the side and it confused me. That is why I now believe the timeline did split after Zelda sent the HoT back.
The key word being "could". This doesn't stand as beneficial to your theory unless proven. We know about the split timeline because have played the games depicting the different outcomes of the split and have had it confirmed by the devs. From OoT Link's perspective he defeated Ganondorf, was sent back in time, and stopped Ganondorf a little earlier. I don't know why he'd have any impression other than he'd averted the disaster sooner than he'd previously remedied it unless he had previously explored the effects of timetravel which, being a young boy, I doubt he had. Again, we're delving into speculation here.
Again, this is why I abandoned the theory that he knew of the split and came up with the more probable theory.
Do you have anything to back up the idea that the Door of Time can be used to jump between timelines?
Yes, actually. On page 122 of the HH, it states that when Zelda returned the MS and closed the DoT, that "the passage between eras was sealed, and the Triforce of Courage continued its slumber." This implies that the ToC was whole at the time and that the door is the seal that keeps the eras separated. Also, the DoT in TP allowed TP Link to travel to a time when the ToT was intact. It might be a different ToT, but they have the same purposes.
In fact, in light of the responses you have received in this thread, do you have any evidence left to suggest the Hero of Time went back to the AT at all? Your main points seem to be that the ToC was split, which we've already discussed didn't have to happen at the hands of the HoT, and that the Master Sword was in a different place, which others have shown it wasn't and I have already demonstrated why even if it was it wouldn't require the Hero of Time to do so.
That is just plain rude. I have given evidence and theorized more to support my theory. None of your guy's points disprove my theory, it just shows that I COULD be wrong. Just because something doesn't have all the evidence in the world doesn't mean it is unlikely or impossible.
 

Locke

Hegemon
Site Staff
Joined
Nov 24, 2009
Location
Redmond, Washington
Yes, actually. On page 122 of the HH, it states that when Zelda returned the MS and closed the DoT, that "the passage between eras was sealed, and the Triforce of Courage continued its slumber." This implies that the ToC was whole at the time and that the door is the seal that keeps the eras separated.
I don't know if you're using the Glitterberri translation or what, but my Dark Horse translation and my own translation say that it continued its slumber "somewhere in the world." To me, this implies that it was hidden as described in WW's backstory, which also implies it was split. Yes, "somewhere" is an awkward way of saying it if it's actually in several places, but that's the direct translation of どこか, which is not awkward in Japanese since plurality is derived from the context rather than the word itself. (though in this case only those who know WW's backstory would pick up on the correct context; otherwise Japanese readers might indeed assume it's hidden in one single place somewhere, just as with the Dark Horse translation.)

That is just plain rude. I have given evidence and theorized more to support my theory. None of your guy's points disprove my theory, it just shows that I COULD be wrong. Just because something doesn't have all the evidence in the world doesn't mean it is unlikely or impossible.
It's not our responsibility to disprove your theory, it's your responsibility to prove it. Also, theories cannot support other theories until they themselves are proven. I do like the evidence you're drawing from though and I think this is a good discussion.
 

Zurriel

BeStrongandofgoodCourage!
Joined
Apr 6, 2013
Location
Hazzlehurst GA
I've said before that I believe the HoW was part of the bloodline, and that is the only viable reason you have supporting that "someone not of the bloodline" could draw the MS. Every other Link was of the bloodline, and no one other than a Link has drawn it.

"The one I have brought with me has no connection to the legendary one. And yet I sense great promise in the
courage that this one possesses."

This is said by the KORL during the cave scene with Jabunn. (I can get the rest of the conversation if this isn't enough for you) The Link of WW is not connected to the Hero of time. Which is why he had to do that test in the Tower of the Gods. So Link could prove that he could use the Master Sword.


Yes, actually. On page 122 of the HH, it states that when Zelda returned the MS and closed the DoT, that "the passage between eras was sealed, and the Triforce of Courage continued its slumber." This implies that the ToC was whole at the time and that the door is the seal that keeps the eras separated. Also, the DoT in TP allowed TP Link to travel to a time when the ToT was intact. It might be a different ToT, but they have the same purposes.

era noun \ˈer-ə, ˈe-rə, ˈir-ə\
: a period of time that is associated with a particular quality, event, person, etc.

By the door between eras it meant that you could no longer use the Master sword to time travel. Because it was behind the door of time, which got closed. Not that you could use the Door of Time to switch to another Door of Time, which is in another Timeline.
 

Turon

The Golden God
Joined
Sep 28, 2013
Location
The Sacred Realm
I don't know if you're using the Glitterberri translation or what, but my Dark Horse translation and my own translation say that it continued its slumber "somewhere in the world." To me, this implies that it was hidden as described in WW's backstory, which also implies it was split. Yes, "somewhere" is an awkward way of saying it if it's actually in several places, but that's the direct translation of どこか, which is not awkward in Japanese since plurality is derived from the context rather than the word itself. (though in this case only those who know WW's backstory would pick up on the correct context; otherwise Japanese readers might indeed assume it's hidden in one single place somewhere, just as with the Dark Horse translation.).
I have the Dark Horse version, so it did say that it "slumbered somewhere in the world." I shortened the quote because it takes so damn long to respond and I didn't want to take longer than needed. Haha. I also think that it could be slumbering after the HoT returned to the AT. It would make the most sense if he returned sometime during the "Many years later" part on pg 122 before the GF, as the next era didn't have a hero.

It's not our responsibility to disprove your theory, it's your responsibility to prove it. Also, theories cannot support other theories until they themselves are proven. I do like the evidence you're drawing from though and I think this is a good discussion.
I can't prove my theory correct, as there is not enough evidence to prove or disprove it. And thank you, it takes me forever to come up with responses; it is mentally exhaustive.

"The one I have brought with me has no connection to the legendary one. And yet I sense great promise in the courage that this one possesses." This is said by the KORL during the cave scene with Jabunn. (I can get the rest of the conversation if this isn't enough for you) The Link of WW is not connected to the Hero of time. Which is why he had to do that test in the Tower of the Gods. So Link could prove that he could use the Master Sword.
I am aware he said that, but how would the KoRL know if the HoW is connected to the HoT or not? Because he didn't possess the ToC? Like I said earlier, "I believe the Hero of Winds is his kin. When he returned to the AT, I think he passed on his bloodline, but he scattered the ToC because he knew he wouldn't be around to pass on his knowledge, so he felt the next Hero had to earn it." It is not like word is proof that they aren't related.

era noun \ˈer-ə, ˈe-rə, ˈir-ə\
: a period of time that is associated with a particular quality, event, person, etc.
By the door between eras it meant that you could no longer use the Master sword to time travel. Because it was behind the door of time, which got closed. Not that you could use the Door of Time to switch to another Door of Time, which is in another Timeline.
I was trying to say that the DoT in the CT syncs with the DoT in the AT and vice versa, not that the DoT itself leads to the opposite timeline. Drawing the MS would induce the time travel again.

Another thing! The Hero Shield's description in TWW says it supposedly belonged to the HoT, but he never used it in OoT! I think it was brought with him.

Does anyone know if the Hylian on the Scroll of the Hero of Time was literally translated to English (Not the intro narration)? It could be good info to have to help prove or disprove my theory. If not, if someone provides a screen cap of TWWHD's boot, (probably the best shot of it) I will manually translate it myself. Thanks!
 
Last edited:

Zurriel

BeStrongandofgoodCourage!
Joined
Apr 6, 2013
Location
Hazzlehurst GA
It is not like word is proof that they aren't related.

...

Another thing! The Hero Shield's description in TWW says it supposedly belonged to the HoT, but he never used it in OoT! I think it was brought with him.

If one thing is true, then the opposite is true. Just because the Hero Shield is said to have be used by the Hero of Time doesn't mean it was. Remember this was also part of the Legend.....Wait, do you mean that little description that pops when you get the shield, or the one Links Grandma gives, I don't remember that part super well, so I might be wrong.
Thanks for the back up Blue Reptile. This is my first discussion on the forums and I'm still learning. But this is a really good theory Turon, I apologize if I also came off as rude and I do hope you can provide more evidence! :)
 

Turon

The Golden God
Joined
Sep 28, 2013
Location
The Sacred Realm
I can't keep replying to these long responses; It takes way to long to sort through everything. I'd much rather answer in a chat room or something, so I only have to answer one question at a time because ironically, TheBlueReptile, mental mapping of my evidence caused my thoughts to be all jumbled at once. As I don't have a PC right now, (I have been using the Wii U's Internet Browser) I can only use the Wii U Chat to talk to you in person. My Nintendo ID is Troopage.

This was my first discussion on the forums as well, and I am already overwhelmed. I'm sorry about the way I have been acting too, but I REALLY believe this theory to be true, but I seem to only be able to find evidence to support it, not prove it right, and the support only opens up more possibilities, so no one can win. This would be going on forever!

I want to tell you guys EVERYTHING I have come up with, but it is all jumbled in my head, so I can only think of some things depending on what you bring to the table. I'm also sorry about not being good at debating right now either, as I have been sick and I cant concentrate.
 
Last edited:

Users who are viewing this thread

Top Bottom