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The Downfall Timeline May Have Existed Longer Than We Have Thought Previously

Spiritual Mask Salesman

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So recently Did You Know Gaming? took a deep dive into the cancelled Sheikah inspired Zelda game that Retro Studios was working on. That's interesting news in of itself, and has been news that publications have been reporting on whenever little tidbits about the project have popped up in the past. There is an aspect of this story that I think has been overlooked that I think we should definitely be talking more about: it may have confirmed the Downfall Timeline was a thing before Hyrule Historia.

I basically went over it in this Twitter thread, but I will convert that here for discussion.

Back in 2020, concept art for Retro Studio's planned Sheikah-inspired Zelda game was uncovered right under our noses on Sammy Hall's ArtStation. Now at the time, the big news was simply that this was a real concept, as it had been an unconfirmed rumor for over a decade. Alongside the artwork, we got this description on the plot of the game: "Fun pre-pre-pre-production origin story of the Master Sword, [Set] within the bad ending of Ocarina of Time..." Quote via Eurogamer. Of course, this was reported on alongside the artwork, but I don't think any publication realized how big of a deal this could be, as it seems to reference the Hero Fails, or Downfall Timeline. Admittingly, even I missed it despite having been a gaming journalist for the last 3 years.

This plot concept was for a game planned from 2005-2008. Back then Nintendo confirmed the Zelda Timeline existed, but people were still skeptical. Furthermore, the Hero Fails ending of Ocarina of Time was not something ever considered by fans until the publication of Hyrule Historia in 2011, which finally revealed Nintendo's Official Zelda Timeline. Even after Hyrule Historia, people have thought the Zelda Timeline was nothing more than an afterthought created for the book, and not something that has existed as a framework for any lengthy period of time. Among the fans who did believe the timeline existed in the past, The Downfall Timeline split came under harsh scrutiny. Many of them believed it especially was something fabricated for the book alone, and many fans still hold to that view currently.

The plot concept for Retro's Sheikah game could indicate that the Downfall Timeline did exist in the past, at least definitely by 2005, but probably even earlier. It also would seem it was not just knowledge internally within Nintendo, but also shared with subsidiaries. From the sounds of it, the Zelda Timeline and information on the series would be a starting point for idea generation — which is why the plot concept for this Sheikah game specifies where it would have been located on the timeline.

Now, I realize technically this concept, in terms of Zelda canon, makes no sense. If this game takes place after Ocarina of Time, the Master Sword already exists so an origin story doesn't really work unless the game was supposed to be set before Ocarina of Time. That said, I don't really expect a concept artist who worked at Retro, or really anyone at Retro, to know every single detail about the Zelda Timeline or Zelda lore considering they'd never worked on a Zelda game before. It's also possible Nintendo rejected the game precisely because the plot didn't make sense, aside from the other issues it ran into. Regardless, the Hero Fails ending being mentioned at all is surprising, and could indicate that it has existed as a concept way before Hyrule Historia.

I am considering the possibility of that detail being added later by Sammy Hall while he was recalling details on the game. It's my job as a journalist to remain skeptical, afterall. I'm not sure if it makes sense for him to just randomly add that detail though. This is by no means a smoking gun, but it could be something. If it is, it confirms details on the Zelda Timeline that should drastically change perceptions of it's validity regarding whether it existed in the past, and likewise the legitimacy of the Downfall Timeline.

I'm interested to hear thoughts on this. I find this bit of info really intersting and I think it might be a glimpse behind the scenes on the really early stages of concept design for Zelda games, in terms of plot.
 
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thePlinko

What’s the character limit on this? Aksnfiskwjfjsk
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There are still going to be people who pretend that the timeline wasn’t planned, regardless of all of the evidence against them.

I guess that’s just what happens when people didn’t get the exact timeline they expected (even though the split timeline was verbally confirmed back in 2007 and shown in game back in 1998).

Now, I realize technically this concept, in terms of Zelda canon, makes no sense. If this game takes place after Ocarina of Time, the Master Sword already exists so an origin story doesn't really work unless the game was supposed to be set before Ocarina of Time.

If the story is that heavily connected to OoT, then I think that a time travel plot isn’t unreasonable. Maybe that’s why there was time travel in the actual Master Sword origin story.
 
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Spiritual Mask Salesman

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If the story is that heavily connected to OoT, then I think that a time travel plot like isn’t unreasonable. Maybe that’s why there was time travel in the actual Master Sword origin story.
You know, I didn't think of it as a time travel indication. It's possible that's what they wanted to do.
 

Pokémaniac13

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im wondering if the Master Sword being formed from the Sheikah is a different Sword. What if Ganon destroyed the original Master Sword? It doesn’t really make sense to leave it there.
 
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They had to have known about the Downfall Timeline since the conception of Ocarina of TIme as a prequel to A Link to the Past. The original 5 games were all technically on the Downfall Timeline; only once Majora's Mask and Wind Waker suggested two other splits did people forget that A Link to the Past was also a sequel.

As for the game itself, it does seem likely that the origin story for the Master Sword could be a time travel narrative (it ended up being that way in Skyward Sword). However, not having Link or Zelda in a Zelda game would have really cemented the importance of all three wielders of the Trifroce. Ganondorf is recognized as the big bad of the series, but he only appears in 8 games (10 if you count the Oracle games (11 if you count Zelda 2 (12 if you count Demise)). Whereas Zelda appears in all but 17 games and Link appears in all 19. Having a game with just a Sheikah attempting to stop a 100-year birth of Ganon or something would stand out majorly.
 
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Now, I realize technically this concept, in terms of Zelda canon, makes no sense.
If the story is that heavily connected to OoT, then I think that a time travel plot isn’t unreasonable. Maybe that’s why there was time travel in the actual Master Sword origin story.

I had a similar thought, about the use of time travel. Also, we could have just revealed the ancient past, in the current time. (Indiana Sheikah?) I think many of the ideas for that game ended up being used for Skywad Sword. Being that it would have been the character becoming the Master Sword, it would suggest that the the one from Ocarina of Time would have been destroyed.
 
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Well its was clear that with Wind Waker and Twilight Princess the old games dont longer fit with either timeline Adult or Kid timeline so the most logical was to create another one im not surprised about this
 

Turo602

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I was one of those people who thought the downfall timeline was a croc of sh*t and even back then, while I liked the idea of the timeline and split timeline, it was something I always believed Nintendo just ran with because it was popular among fans and held over our heads to keep people speculating. But after playing Wind Waker HD and Twilight Princess HD back to back in 2019, I noticed way too many parallels that were 100% intentionally done as a reference to a split timeline.

I always thought fans were just reaching and looking for things to connect despite every game just being an iteration of the same thing. But after replaying those games knowing everything we do now and looking for those type of connections, I do firmly believe now that as early as 2003/2004 or whenever Twilight Princess was in development, that Nintendo had to have been thinking about the Zelda series as a timeline.

So I guess it isn't really too hard to believe that maybe since then, they had created a downfall timeline to put all the classic Zelda games in that were created before they ever thought about connecting the story via a timeline. So really, the downfall timeline is still just a cheap cop out based on a non-existent event, they just kept it secret a lot longer than anyone could have anticipated.
 

Mikey the Moblin

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I was one of those people who thought the downfall timeline was a croc of sh*t and even back then, while I liked the idea of the timeline and split timeline, it was something I always believed Nintendo just ran with because it was popular among fans and held over our heads to keep people speculating. But after playing Wind Waker HD and Twilight Princess HD back to back in 2019, I noticed way too many parallels that were 100% intentionally done as a reference to a split timeline.

I always thought fans were just reaching and looking for things to connect despite every game just being an iteration of the same thing. But after replaying those games knowing everything we do now and looking for those type of connections, I do firmly believe now that as early as 2003/2004 or whenever Twilight Princess was in development, that Nintendo had to have been thinking about the Zelda series as a timeline.

So I guess it isn't really too hard to believe that maybe since then, they had created a downfall timeline to put all the classic Zelda games in that were created before they ever thought about connecting the story via a timeline. So really, the downfall timeline is still just a cheap cop out based on a non-existent event, they just kept it secret a lot longer than anyone could have anticipated.
the downfall timeline at the very least exists as its own timeline since we know those games were developed with each other in mind (zelda 2 as a sequel, alttp as a prequel, oot as a prequel prequel)
the main thing that is still up in the air is when nintendo decided that this was a separate event than the ingame endings of ocarina of time (because the imprisoning war was a previously created event in alttp) and why it had to be a separate event
 

Bowsette Plus-Ultra

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No.

Zelda has been nebulous with its time-keeping for years, and the idea of a third timeline wasn't brought up until the Hyrule Historia. Heck, the original split timeline hasn't so much as been acknowledged by any game in the series, only by outside developers.
 

Spiritual Mask Salesman

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No.

Zelda has been nebulous with its time-keeping for years, and the idea of a third timeline wasn't brought up until the Hyrule Historia. Heck, the original split timeline hasn't so much as been acknowledged by any game in the series, only by outside developers.
How have they been nebulous with their time keeping when nearly every game was developed to fit together in context of others? It wasn't like it was shrouded in mystery either, the statements on the thought process behind creating the games exist in interviews. I think the issue is the early games like ALttP and LA had those interviews tucked away in japanese magazines, and if they ever got translated back then it would have been in Nintendo Power which not every fan had a subscription for. Zelda websites also weren't a thing yet to share info.

The split timeline was obvious from the end of OoT, but Wind Waker and Majora's Mask/Twilight Princess clearly do take place on different timelines.
 
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How have they been nebulous with their time keeping when nearly every game was developed to fit together in context of others? It wasn't like it was shrouded in mystery either, the statements on the thought process behind creating the games exist in interviews. I think the issue is the early games like ALttP and LA had those interviews tucked away in japanese magazines, and if they ever got translated back then it would have been in Nintendo Power which not every fan had a subscription for. Zelda websites also weren't a thing yet to share info.

The split timeline was obvious from the end of OoT, but Wind Waker and Majora's Mask/Twilight Princess clearly do take place on different timelines.

To add on to this, I'll copypaste what I said a few days ago:(I should keep this handy for when people spread misinformation):

Zelda 2 is a direct sequel taking place after Link defeated Ganon in Zelda 1 and reclaimed the Triforce of Power and Triforce of Wisdom. The intro to the game and the manual both make this clear as day. This game introduces the Triforce of Courage, the fact that Ganon can be revived, and multiple incarnations of Zelda to the lore.

A Link to the Past is a prequel to The Legend of Zelda. The back of the NoA box states that ALttP features the ancestors of Link and Zelda, and the NoJ box says it takes place during a time when Hyrule was still one nation, a bygone time mentioned by Impa in the JP Zelda 2 manual. The JP manual also mentions that ALttP and its backstory sets the stage for The Legend of Zelda(referring to the entire franchise since Zelda 1 had the subtitle of ''The Hyrule Fantasy'' in Japan, and ALttP was the earliest game in the chronology at the time), and there's this quote:

''Indeed, the King of Evil Ganon, the one who has threatened Hyrule so, was born at this time.''

http://www.zeldalegends.net/files/text/z3translation/z3_manual_story.html

This makes it clear that the main antagonist of ALttP, Ganon, is the very same antagonist from the NES era despite Link and Zelda being seperate incarnations from the NES games. Zelda II introduced the fact that Ganon can be revived to the lore, so this doesn't conflict with the fact that ALttP ends in his death. Talking about Ganon, this is the first game to be released that delves into his backstory as a human thief who invades the Sacred Realm and and claims the Triforce. This story would be expanded upon in Ocarina of Time. This is also the first game to be released to feature the Master Sword, as well as the Creation myth(although the goddesses would remain nameless until OoT revealed their names). This game introduces multiple Links to the lore, too.

Link's Awakening had no confirmed placement at the time of its release per say, but there were some things we knew:

-It took place after an incarnation of Link defeated Ganon

-The Nightmares took the form of Agahnim

-Places like Turtle Rock appear in the dream, places Link visited in ALttP

Placing it after ALttP with the same Link seemed like the best bet; Zelda 1 already had a followup game, and Zelda 1's Link never fought Agahnim. Funnily enough, this placement was confirmed in 1998, when LADX came out:

ZELDA‚Ì“`à

''Having regained peace in Hyrule from the evil king Ganon's demonic clutches, Link set out on a journey of training in preparation for a new calamity before he could enjoy the peace he had obtained.'' Followed by a clip of the end of the fight with Ganon in ALttP.

So there you go. So far, the timeline is:

Creation-Imprisoning War-A Link to the Past/Link's Awakening-Tragedy of Zelda-Ganon is revived; he steals the Triforce of Power/The Legend of Zelda/Zelda II: The Adventure of Link

Ocarina of Time
is a prequel to A Link to the Past. It deals with elements of the backstory, such as Ganondorf entering the Sacred Realm and touching the Triforce and the Creation story while expanding upon them.

''The story in Ocarina of time isn't actually original, it deals with the Sages' Imprisoning War from the Super Famicom's ALttP. Because of the relation, I thought it would be right to leave a part of the pigginess in.''

Ocarina of Time Development - Ganondorf
The original interview can be found in its entirety at <a href="http://www.1101.com/nintendo/nin1/nin1-6.htm" target="new">1101</a>. Translation thanks to <a href="https://www.glitterberri.com/ocarina-of-time/1101-interviews/ganondorf" target="new">Glitterberri</a>
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The games ends with a split in the timeline; we know this to be the case because we witness the future continuing to exist after Link is sent back(the party at Lon Lon for example). Majora's Mask is a direct sequel to Ocarina of Time, not in the world where Ganon was defeated and sealed away, but in the world where Link lived out his childhood after being sent back. Proof of this is in the fact that the intro to the game makes it crystal clear, as well as the fact that Link has the OoT and the Kokiri Sword, with the description for the KS saying it's the same one he got from Kokiri Forest in OoT.

The Oracle games are somewhat tricky; they take place in an era where the Triforce is unified and in possession of the Royal Family and Ganon is dead(NOT sealed). Some people tried placing them after ALttP and before LA with the same Link due to Link leaving on a boat at the end, but not only does Zelda not recognize him, but he has a Triforce birthmark that ALttP/LA Link doesn't have, and the point of the Oracle games was to test Link(which would be odd if he was already a hero), and he only becomes a hero at the end of the game according to Zelda. Therefore, the Oracle games could've only gone either after ALttP/LA and before the era of the NES Games, or after the era of the NES games.

Four Swords was the first game in the timeline according to Aonuma:

''Aonuma: The GBA Four Swords Zelda is what we’re thinking as the oldest tale in the Zelda timeline. With this one on the GameCube [(FSA)] being a sequel to that, and taking place sometime after that.''

zelda.fandom.com

History of the Zelda Timeline/Timeline Quotes
Creator Quotes are commonly studied in the Zelda Timeline discussion by theorists attempting to interpret the Nintendo-intended path of the storyline. The precise meanings and relevancies of these quotes are commonly debated, and often raise more questions than they answer. After Ocarina of Time...
zelda.fandom.com

This places it as first in the timeline during this period.

The Wind Waker is a sequel to Ocarina of Time in the world where Ganon was defeated by the Hero of Time and sealed away by the sages. Not only was this confimed ingame due to the multiple references to characters and events from OoT, but there's also interviews:

Q: Where does The Wind Waker fit into the overall Zelda series timeline? Aonuma: You can think of this game as taking place over a hundred years after Ocarina of Time. You can tell this from the opening story, and there are references to things from Ocarina located throughout the game as well.Miyamoto: Well, wait, which point does the hundred years start from? Aonuma: From the end. Miyamoto: No, I mean, as a child or as a... Aonuma: Oh, right, let me elaborate on that. Ocarina of Time basically has two endings of sorts; one has Link as a child and the other has him as an adult. This game, The Wind Waker, takes place a hundred years after the adult Link defeats Ganon at the end of Ocarina.

zelda.fandom.com

History of the Zelda Timeline/Timeline Quotes
Creator Quotes are commonly studied in the Zelda Timeline discussion by theorists attempting to interpret the Nintendo-intended path of the storyline. The precise meanings and relevancies of these quotes are commonly debated, and often raise more questions than they answer. After Ocarina of Time...
zelda.fandom.com

The Minish Cap obviously takes place before FS due to providing the origin for the FS and Vaati, so it becomes the first game.

Twilight Princess is centuries after Ocarina of Time in the world where Link lived out his childhood:

–When does Twilight Princess take place?Aonuma: In the world of Ocarina of Time, a hundred and something years later.–And the Wind Waker?Aonuma: The Wind Waker is parallel. In Ocarina of Time, Link flew seven years in time, he beat Ganon and went back to being a kid, remember? Twilight Princess takes place in the world of Ocarina of Time, a hundred and something years after the peace returned to kid Link’s time. In the last scene of Ocarina of Time, kids Link and Zelda have a little talk, and as a consequence of that talk, their relationship with Ganon takes a whole new direction. In the middle of this game [Twilight Princess], there's a scene showing Ganon's execution. It was decided that Ganon be executed because he'd do something outrageous if they left him be. That scene takes place several years after Ocarina of Time. Ganon was sent to another world and now he wants to obtain the power...

zelda.fandom.com

History of the Zelda Timeline/Timeline Quotes
Creator Quotes are commonly studied in the Zelda Timeline discussion by theorists attempting to interpret the Nintendo-intended path of the storyline. The precise meanings and relevancies of these quotes are commonly debated, and often raise more questions than they answer. After Ocarina of Time...
zelda.fandom.com

Phantom Hourglass is an obvious direct sequel to TWW; Tetra is in it, and the beginning recaps it.

Spirit Tracks is about a century after TWW/PH; Niko is still alive, and Tetra is mentioned.

Skyward Sword is an obvious prequel to the entire series; it explains the origins of the Master Sword and Hyrule Kingdom.

So, even before the Historia and Encyclopedia, almost every game had an obvious placement besides FSA and, to a lesser extent, the Oracles. Pretty good track record if you ask me.

Also, just because it's called ''The LEGEND of Zelda'' doesn't mean anything. The LEGEND of Korra is still a part of the same continuity as Avatar: The Last Airbender despite having legend in its name. It's just an epic sounding name.
 

Bowsette Plus-Ultra

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How have they been nebulous with their time keeping when nearly every game was developed to fit together in context of others? It wasn't like it was shrouded in mystery either, the statements on the thought process behind creating the games exist in interviews. I think the issue is the early games like ALttP and LA had those interviews tucked away in japanese magazines, and if they ever got translated back then it would have been in Nintendo Power which not every fan had a subscription for. Zelda websites also weren't a thing yet to share info.

The split timeline was obvious from the end of OoT, but Wind Waker and Majora's Mask/Twilight Princess clearly do take place on different timelines.

If you have to confirm the series' chronology in interviews, it isn't very good.

And while they did say there was a two way split, they never alluded to the idea of a third timeline branch at any point.
 

Spiritual Mask Salesman

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If you have to confirm the series' chronology in interviews, it isn't very good.
I don't think it's good to discount interviews from developers revealing their thought process behind development in an unprompted format. It's not like the questions were "hey how do the games fit together" questions like that didn't start popping up in interviews until around The Wind Waker's release probably.
 

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