Sympathetic Villains

[DuelMark]

So, a brief look shows me there are few villains in the series who are sympathetic or have redeeming qualities. Hilda wanted to save her world, but she got pushed to the side by Yuga. Byrne does pull a heel face turn, but he dies. Ganondorf in The Wind Waker does display some depth. Those are all I can think of at the time, but you can see what I mean.

Personally, I'd like to see a major villain who is sympathetic, has some redeeming qualities or has a genuine point in his plans but goes overboard. Someone like Killmonger from the recent Black Panther. Most of the bad guys we've seen so far are pretty much evil for evil's sake and that can get dull. I'd like to see a villain who needs to be stopped and yet you feel somewhat sorry for them.

Here's an example from a game that was never made: Project Goliath, a 3D platformer that was going to be made by Junction Point. The duo heroes of the game find themselves on an island populated by cyborg monsters, led by a twisted alien mad scientist. However, as the heroes continue, they discover he is amassing an army to hunt down the invaders who destroyed his homeworld, killing his people and his family. In the end, the heroes would have to kill him but be reluctant, feeling sympathy for what happened to him. (This was a pitch so it never became clear if they would have killed him in the end)

I'd like to see this happen more often, especially with non-Ganon, one-shot sequel villains. Anyone else agree?

 

[YIGAhim]

I would love this. Depth is something every character needs nowadays.

A popular new villain in the D&D world is actually trying to be a hero. it is a Cleric who believes in Communism and is trying to save the world by being communist. A Lawful Good villain. Trying to be good, and it is clear, but is harming the community.


Just saying, communism is good on paper, but irl it would never work withing a community of more than 40 people

 

[Pen]

Villains that you can sympathise with are always the best kind, I think, so if we could get more villains like that in future Zelda games I would be very happy. Ganondorf in The Wind Waker has been my favourite Zelda villain for many years due to him being the most relatable Zelda villain. At least in my opinion. He wants to restore Hyrule to the way it was before it was flooded. I think a lot of players will agree with him, to varying extents, but still. I know that at least I definitely wanted the good old Hyrule back at the end of that game. ^^

 

[Mido]

As far as the previously-established series villains are concerned, I think Hilda fits the mantle of "sympathetic villain" the best from the ones I have experienced. Her motive is understandable in spite of her drastic actions. I never got the impression that she was a wholly evil individual, but one who given the circumstances decided to behave as such for motives that appear earnest and well-meaning for those she desires to benefit. Ganondorf in Wind Waker has his final monologue that harbors hints of sympathy, but much like Meruem from Hunter X Hunter, Ganondorf is still very clearly a villain of epic proportions. In addition to Byrne (I haven't played enough of ST to experience his full story), I think King Bublin also falls into a similar category, even if he is mostly a tweener if my memory serves me right. In any case, I think the additions of sympathetic villainy can be a very welcome one, although I mostly envision said implemented villain being a superficial villain with a big bad lurking behind the scenes.

 

[Doc]

This is certainly something that is holding the Zelda series back. As said, Wind Waker Ganondorf is probably the best iteration of the character, because his motives make sense. He hated Hyrule because his people suffered (This one line of dialogue makes him my favorite Ganondorf). It's much better than Ganondorf being an evil villain who seeks destruction of everything because EVIL or GREED.

I think that Nintendo can still pursue this route for Ganondorf, and flesh him out a bit more. Assuming we ever see Ganondorf pre-Beast Ganon again. For any new villains, I think there should certainly be a bit more sympathetic villains, who are just a one-off. Too many villains in Zelda are driven by a pointless desire for power because they want power.

Basic villains probably worked a bit better back in the day, when games were less focused on plot. But as time has gone on and stories in video games have developed, there should be a bit more effort put behind the motives of villains. It makes the game more engaging and it certainly helps with world building.

 

[Dizzi]

Sometimes you dont wanna sympathise with the villains

 

[DJ Twitch]

Sympathetic villainy is a very delicate art that very few can master, and I highly doubt Nintendo has it in them. I'd rather hate a Zelda villain because he's boring than because he's annoying.

 

[Castle]

I've gotten to the point where sympathetic villains are about the only way I can get into a story anymore. The thing about a sympathetic villain is that you don't necessarily have to like or agree with their motivations. You just have to understand them. It's impossible to get into a story if you cannot understand a character's motivations, and as two sides of a narrative this is as true for the antagonist as it is for the protagonist. Otherwise, it can make for a weak narrative.

And all of Zelda's best narratives have sympathetic villains. This started from Ocarina onward with noteable exceptions. Thing is, Ninty is extremely vague and subtle in their exposition and characterization, with the sole exception of Midna and the kids from Ordon. And no, I'm not counting BotW Zelda because her characterization and arc were stupid. Everything else is vaguely implied to subtly intoned. The Hero of Time's tragic destiny. Zelda's tragic mistake in Ocarina of time.

But for villains all we get is one line in Wind Waker about Ganon coveting Hyrule's winds and the explanation that Vaati was driven by envy and a lust for power. Really, I think the best sympathetic version of Ganondorf is in Ocarina of Time, where virtually no exposition is flat out stated about his motivations, but a lot can be inferred just from what else is known about him. He's young in Ocarina. Raised by madwomen. Destined to be king of his own personal harem of thieves in an inhospitable desert and taught the magical dark arts. There is just no way this poor kid was ever going to turn out well.

Of course then there are the villains from the games I'd rather not mention but have to anyway because they exist. Of the many things that kill BotW for me, it's that Calamity Ganon is an inanimate object the whole time. The thing is literally a malevolent storm cloud and that's being generous because even storm clouds tend to have more personality. A bar stool is more threatening than this thing. And don't even get me started on Barney the Giant Black Dinosaur.

Zant is another villain whose motivation is utterly unknown, other than being passed over as king of twilight.

Hilda was a good way to present a sympathetic villain.

Spoiler

She tried to do the right thing but by hurting others. Ends justify the means sort of thing. It's not right, but at least you know where she's coming from.

====================

Sympathetic villainy is a very delicate art that very few can master, and I highly doubt Nintendo has it in them. I'd rather hate a Zelda villain because he's boring than because he's annoying.

*cough* Girahim *cough*

Somehow someone at nintendo managed to write Midna and it actually made it to print. They've done it before, but given what we know it's highly unlikely they can ever do it again.

EDIT: Merged Double Posts - Jimmu

 

[DJ Twitch]

*cough* Girahim *cough*

Somehow someone at nintendo managed to write Midna and it actually made it to print. They've done it before, but given what we know it's highly unlikely they can ever do it again.

What sympathetic vibes do you get from Midna? or even Ghirahim?

 

[A Link In Time]

Seeing Pendio's Zuko avatar in this thread makes me wish we saw a Zelda game with two antagonists that closely resemble Zuko from Avatar: The Last Airbender and Zaheer from the sequel story, The Legend of Korra. Some of the ideas might be a bit too heavy-handed, but we've already seen some traces of politics in Ocarina of Time, Majora's Mask, Twilight Princess, Spirit Tracks, and even Breath of the Wild.

I think it would be refreshing to have one very developed villain who eventually switches sides to aid Link in his quest to take down the other villain. That would set-up a premise that hasn't been done in Zelda yet beyond Byrne siding with Link and Zelda in the final battle against Malladus in Spirit Tracks. But that fight lacked the emotional weight a more developed villain turning to Link's side would carry.

Continuing with my Avatar analogy, the main villain of said show was extremely bland, hence why I favor someone more morally gray being the primary foe. An anarchist wouldn't be entirely out of the realm of Zelda story telling; it could be argued that Ganondorf in The Wind Waker possesses some of those attributes. A villain who believes that chaos is the natural order of all living things would freshen up the story beyond the stereotypical battle between light and darkness and could present something for people who believe society has become increasingly unjust to relate to.

 

[Castle]

What sympathetic vibes do you get from Midna? or even Ghirahim?

I've only ever had nothing but the upmost praise for Midna, but she's only a "villain" in so much as she's unlikable and slightly antagonistic when she's first introduced. She is the star of Twilight Princess though. I mean, she is the game's title. Midna has a complete honest to god character arc, brilliant personality, developing chemistry with Link, and the audiences perception of her changes from the start of the game to the end as she undergoes her own development. Midna's development also changes audience's perception of the Twili. Where as the Twili start off as faceless scary monsters, Midna shows us that they are people just like her. By the end of Twilight Princess Midna has gone from a strange scary slightly mean creature to and old friend and positively Grade A waifu material. She's entirely sympathetic. She is the most developed and sympathetic character Nintendo has ever constructed, and that's hardly doing her justice considering the most developed a nintendo character gets is "crude stereotype" "recognizable basic archetype."

And the way her character arc is used to develop the Twili is a good example of how a sympathetic character can be used to enrich other aspects of the experience.

Ghirahim on the other hand is a completely flat, utterly unsympathetic villain. It has no motivations and no real definite personality other than being weird and strange. It has no agency and no arc. And yes, I do refer to Ghirahim as an "it" because in addition to being a literal object in the context of the game, as a character Ghirahim makes so little sense and is so poorly developed and established that it might as well be an object. In the end Ghirahim is revealed to be a mindless minion of the Big Bad. There is exactly nothing sympathetic about Ghirahim. That's why he is regarded by fans as nothing more than an in-joke. There's just nothing you can say about the "character" that isn't ridiculous. This makes every encounter with Ghirahim tedious and pointless. Every time Midna pops up I'm delighted. Every prolonged cutscene and boss battle with Ghirahim is just a tiresome exercise in futility.

 

[Dio]

There aren't any real sympathetic villains in Zelda. Ganondorf is perhaps playing the sympathy card in WW to Link who does not know the truth but his actions in OOT show he was never sympathetic. He was a thief and a murderer. He did not seek a better life for his people as they remained in the desert even after he took power.

If anything Zant is the most sympathetic villain we get as he was next in line for the throne. Probably thought he would get it all his life and was robbed of it at the last moment.

 

[Dizzi]

I did write an article on why the Zelda baddies aint that bad......couldn't think of anything for Ganon.....