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Spoiler Song of Storms Theory (sort Of)

Joined
Apr 17, 2014
Okay, so we all know that the whole song of storms paradox is messed up. I read somewhere that Link as a child came back to teach Guru Guru after he defeated skull kid in MM. But this can't be possible because 1.) Link had no way of getting back 2.) The "Link's Dead" theory (In which I believe Link lived with Malon in Termina and made a family and died and became the stalfos in TP). If this theory (or some alteration) isn't true, how else could Link in TP be a decendent?
Anyway, as for the song of storms, the Composer Brothers could've just made the song up (since they are composers) and MAYBE, since they were servants if the royal family, Link over heard it from somewhere in the castle or when he found the Composer Brothers when learning the sun song. Then he could've been messing around with his ocarina in the windmill, and accidentally played the song of storms and messed up the windmill without completely knowing it was his ocarina. Then 7 years later, Guru Guru reminds him of the song and so forth.
 

Sir Quaffler

May we meet again
It is a paradox, but it's not as messed up as it first appears.

Are you aware of the Stable Time Loop theory? Basically, the Song of Storms has no definitive origin; it exists solely because of its own existence. Link learns the song from Guru Guru in the future, because Guru Guru learned it from Link in the past, because Link traveled back in time from learning it from Guru Guru in the future, and so on and so forth.

Basically, this is but a taste of how time travel would work according to Einstein. All events that occur within time are predestined to happen, by trying to go back in time and alter events you will either cause the event in the first place or will be totally unable to stop it from happening. In this case, by going back in time to learn the origins of the Song of Storms you yourself become the origin of the Song of Storms. And, since this turn of events will always happen and will have always happened, the loop closes in on itself and becomes entirely stable. The Song of Storms exists because it exists; Sum Ergo Sum.
 
Joined
Mar 18, 2014
It is a paradox, but it's not as messed up as it first appears.

Are you aware of the Stable Time Loop theory? Basically, the Song of Storms has no definitive origin; it exists solely because of its own existence. Link learns the song from Guru Guru in the future, because Guru Guru learned it from Link in the past, because Link traveled back in time from learning it from Guru Guru in the future, and so on and so forth.

Basically, this is but a taste of how time travel would work according to Einstein. All events that occur within time are predestined to happen, by trying to go back in time and alter events you will either cause the event in the first place or will be totally unable to stop it from happening. In this case, by going back in time to learn the origins of the Song of Storms you yourself become the origin of the Song of Storms. And, since this turn of events will always happen and will have always happened, the loop closes in on itself and becomes entirely stable. The Song of Storms exists because it exists; Sum Ergo Sum.

This is, of course, assuming that time is linear. If that is the case, then one cannot change the future because the event causing them to WANT to change the future is necessary for time travel to occur. If that event does not occur, time travel does not happen and the event occurs without interference.

HOWEVER, in a multiverse, everything that can happen does happen and any change in the timeline would simply shift the timeline into a different reality and there are an infinite number of realities based on any number of things including individual choices and random chance.

As for the song of storms, it is a closed loop as you described in OoT. I think the reason it was introduced the way it was in MM was because not every song from OoT was used in MM and not every song that had power in Hyrule had power in Termina. The temple specific songs, for example, were effectively powerless but Termina had its own temple songs. That said, Link had to learn which songs specifically worked in Termina and the Song of Storms happened to be one of them.
 

Sir Quaffler

May we meet again
This is, of course, assuming that time is linear. If that is the case, then one cannot change the future because the event causing them to WANT to change the future is necessary for time travel to occur. If that event does not occur, time travel does not happen and the event occurs without interference.

HOWEVER, in a multiverse, everything that can happen does happen and any change in the timeline would simply shift the timeline into a different reality and there are an infinite number of realities based on any number of things including individual choices and random chance.

As for the song of storms, it is a closed loop as you described in OoT. I think the reason it was introduced the way it was in MM was because not every song from OoT was used in MM and not every song that had power in Hyrule had power in Termina. The temple specific songs, for example, were effectively powerless but Termina had its own temple songs. That said, Link had to learn which songs specifically worked in Termina and the Song of Storms happened to be one of them.

That would bring into question whether Hyrule runs under a strictly-linear sense of time or if it's a full-out multiverse. Looking at evidence from all the games it appears Hyrule doesn't really follow either of these types of universes to the letter and instead operates on a weird mix of the two, where certain events are fixed points or loops within the timeline that are predestined to happen, and other events are left up to fate and are allowed to deviate into alternate timelines, with Termina being its own separate universe with altogether different manners of timeflow (or just a purgatory region where Link learns to accept his own death, either are legit theories).

Ocarina of Time seems to be a nexus point itself, with all the timelines after it hinging on what happened at the very end (whether he arrived into his childhood from the future and prevented Ganondorf's rise to power, whether the future is stripped of its Hero as a result of Zelda's actions, or whether Link died in the fight against Ganon). Now, while it is very true that in a true multiverse every single action taken by the Links in time has an alternative action that could shift the timeline, OoT's events are seemingly much more significant than those in any other game and thus are specified as important nexus points.

Getting back to the Song of Storms, it being a dedicated Stable Time Loop would seem to refute the Many-Worlds theory on the song itself, though other events in the game are still open for alternative outcomes. Now, as far as why the Song of Storms is present in Termina: Since it's a separate dimension from Hyrule altogether it's not confined to the song's Stable Time Loop and can find alternative means of origins. Perhaps the song is present because it's a direct mirror of Hyrule and the song got reflected. Perhaps it's Link's purgatory and he remembers certain important songs in his life and the Song of Storms is one of them. Or perhaps the composers just.... well... made it up independently. That's always a possibility.
 
Joined
Mar 18, 2014
I think the reason that OoT is a Nexus point is that this is where the Door of Time is opened (literally) and the timeline can be broken for the first time in the games.

Now to address the Link is dead, Song of Storms, how did it happen etc. bit: There are two options.

Option #1, Link isn't dead. Termina is a parallel world to Hyrule and the existence of stuff there is (almost) completely unrelated to the existence of stuff in Hyrule (think Mirror Universe on Star Trek, there was an episode where a hologram from the "prime" universe was a flesh and blood freedom fighter in the mirror universe on DS9 it was screwey and I didn't get it). Essentially, stuff exists independently in the two universes but is similar and just needs a separate back story (like what was created by a closed time loop in OoT can be composed by two brothers in MM). No big deal.

Option #2 (I tend to go more with this one), Link IS dead and nothing that happens in Termina matters. Well, it matters to Link but not to anyone else. MM is basically Link's soul dealing with the fact that he died and nothing that happens in MM has any bearing on what happens in Hyrule. Link incorporates things from his life (people, songs, etc) into his near death fantasy and creates a new adventure to play out one last time before he moves on.

This raises two questions. 1. In the Link is Dead game theory video, they say Termina is kind of a Purgatory of a sort. It could be but it could also be a fantasy as Link is slipping away. There is a theory about the movie Grease that kind of follows the same logic. Sandy drowned at the beginning, the last person she saw was Danny so she incorporated him into her near death fantasy and that fantasy got more ridiculous (angels singing about cosmetology school) as her brain lost oxygen. 2. Even if it's a fantasy, that doesn't mean that al of the other characters are made up. Link was chasing the Skull Kid/Majora before he arrived in Termina and the Mask Salesman seems a little too helpful to simply be a figment of a dying boys imagination. I'm wondering if those two aren't there to help Link move on. I think the Mask Salesman is Death, the Grim Reaper, the Pale Rider etc. He is there to help Link along and either Majora is not as powerful as he is made out to be (the Mask Salesman helped feed the fantasy to give Link one last adventure to conquer) or the Majora/Mask Salesman battle is actually a battle for Links soul. If Link wins, then the Mask Salesman takes him to the land of milkshakes and unicorns, if Majora wins, Link goes to eternal torment. I mean, if you don't reset the clock in time and the moon crashes down, the mask salesman comments on your fate, that's odd considering you're already dead.

Either way, In this theory, the whole game takes place in a sandbox either of Links making (his own near death fantasy), the mask salesman's or Majoras or a combination of the 3. In that case, nothing that happens here has any effect on the rest of the Zeldaverse so there is no need to explain how this Link went back in time to teach Guru Guru the Song of Storms.

Off topic but you did bring up an interesting point about timeline splits Sir. In Skyward Sword, you fight The Imprisoned three times. Either just before or just after the second fight (don't remember), you learn that the beast is actually Demise. You then go back in time to just after Demise was sealed and became The Imprisoned and engage in a duel during which you skillfully stab him in the chest and absorb his essence into the Master Sword ending his terror forever and incurring his curse. Was there another timeline split here? One where Ghirahim did not go back in time? If not, what were you really fighting during those first three battles with The Imprisoned? This confuses me almost as much as the fact that Skyloft floats peacefully above an impenetrable cloud barrier and below the sun but it's somehow almost always sunny on the surface (below the cloud barrier).
 
Joined
Apr 17, 2014
Sir Quaffler, That Einstein theory kind of makes sense, thank you. Sometimes it's just hard to accept that fact that it just happens that way, because it just leaves me wanting a reason.

On the topic of the Link's dead theory, I don't see how that's possible. I know it's a weird point, but if he is dead, how does he pass down his legacy? I could've sworn that TP Link is a descendant of OoT and MM Link. I believe he goes on living with Romani and (cheesily) lives happily ever after. Or after spending his life with Romani goes back out in the Lost Woods and becomes the Stalfos that teaches his descendant from TP.
 

LilyPadGeek

Some Weird Person
Joined
Apr 13, 2014
Location
Middle Earth
Goodness but it is confusing! My favorite song in OOT but it has such an infamous past... present... future... whatever it is. Now this might make no sense at all... but what if it's just how it is? I mean, if he goes back in time, he's already changing the past. So when he's older the past already happened even if he did immediately go back and change it.
 

Ocarina_Player

Will play for rupees
Joined
Mar 12, 2014
Location
Behind you!
Basically everything you understand about time is wrong. Just throw it right out the window.

This sort of thing pops up in Harry Potter three, and multiple times in Doctor Who and Star Trek. If you want a nice visual explanation of the stable time loop, watch this Doctor Who short where ten saves himself and five from implosion because he remembered watching himself do it when he was five and--- oh just watch it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szuP0oBZX4g
 

Jirohnagi

Braava Braava
Joined
Feb 18, 2010
Location
Soul Sanctum
Gender
Geosexual
Hey guys to Quote doctor who, it's nicknamed the Destiny Trap "you can't change history if you already a part of it" Referring to the temple of the silence trying to kill him in the past while in the present a group of them break off and form a separate sect that attempts this. If we apply that to OOT's Song of storm we literally have something that's always been there waiting for the right time to insinuate itself into the life of link and once their will find it own way of existing, similar to an echo in a way, for each one will continue to echo on in a moment of time but there are infinite moments of time and it could just as easily "echo" into the mind of the Compoeser brothers from MM. Some songs will Echo more throughout time and some will not such as the Bolero of Fire, being completely useless in one dimension because it doesn't echo as far. Whereas some songs such as the Song of Time Quite literally reverberate instead of echoing. Similar to a guitar string being pulled. With the Song of Storms if we follw the echo and reverberation thought, the fact that it was created inside a loop of time allows it to "refresh" itself each time link travels through time and with each "refresh" it becomes stronger and it start echoing through time, as it builds strength it turns into a reverberation that plucks at the strings of time allowing it to cross time itself to find what is in essence a new "host" as all songs no matter how good or bad once hear there is always someone who remembers and that goods sirs/ladies is the echos of time theory
 

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