• Welcome to ZD Forums! You must create an account and log in to see and participate in the Shoutbox chat on this main index page.

Song of Storms Isnt a Paradox.

WechyPichu

is hiding behind 7 froxie
Joined
Apr 13, 2012
Location
Lost Woods
The ocarina kid gur-guru talks about isnt Link. It might be some random kid who plays the song on his ocarina. My evidence is it isnt impossible for someone to have an ocarina exeptfo link, i mean, Saria has one, why cant some random kid have one?
 
Joined
Apr 11, 2012
Location
Seattle, WA
That's a theory that definitely makes some sense. I mean, it would be one of the few ways to avoid a Time Travel paradox with Link. Still, I think that the young Link almost has to be the one who plays the Song of Storms for the first time. Before you play the song as a child, the Windmill Man is a jovial fellow, his mood only changing after you play the song. If someone else had come in and played the song beforehand, he wouldn't have been in such a great mood.

Simply because the Windmill Man's personality changes so drastically before and after you play the song as a child, I don't think anyone else could have done it.
 

Ventus

Mad haters lmao
Joined
May 26, 2010
Location
Akkala
Gender
Hylian Champion
I think the first time cannot possibly be Link who plays the SoS. I'm pretty sure the original timeline, before any major splits goes like this:

[Link is born to his parents] -- [Deku Tree stuffs] - [Meets Zelda] - [3 stones] - [Master Sword + time travel INTO THE FUTURE *Link is dormant*] - [*wakens in Chamber of Sages*, is directed by Sheik to Kakariko] - [Meets for the first time Guru Guru] - [*LEARNS* the SoS after whipping out his OoT].

It has to be some random kid the first time, then subsequent child visits create alt timelines where it is Link instead who teachers Guru Guru SoS and jacks up the windmill, otherwise Link would already know the Song of Storms from near the game's beginning. We all know Link retains all of his memories from his adult life (how that works is beyond me), something trivial like this would be explained had Link known the SoS beforehand but he very clearly doesn't.
 

Locke

Hegemon
Site Staff
Joined
Nov 24, 2009
Location
Redmond, Washington
Guru-Guru's reaction when you play the song as a child clearly indicates that it's the first time it's happened. Thus, Link taught him the song. In the future, he describes one unique event. I understand the anti-razor that paradoxes don't exist, but... there are going to be paradoxes inherently with this sort of time travel. I think the razor of not introducing a second "Ocarina Kid" is stronger, given the implications in Guru-Guru's dialog.
 

SNOlink

I'm baack. Who missed me?
Joined
Sep 7, 2011
Location
United States, Michigan
If you can present any evidence of this, you might have a point. Until that point, though, it is most definitely Link as a kid that had done this.
 

TrueChaos

Defender of Hyrule
Joined
Oct 14, 2011
Location
Weymouth
he says the kid plays a song which messes up the windmill. a random kid wouldn't have the power to do that, only someone using the Ocarina of Time would. I'm going with it's Link
 

WechyPichu

is hiding behind 7 froxie
Joined
Apr 13, 2012
Location
Lost Woods
I realise this was a little confusing, I mean he was taught it on a different day, (Like 7 years ago, after link was sealed away.)
 
Joined
Nov 8, 2010
Location
Boston, MA
Here guys. From an older Song of Storms paradox thread.

Let's look at how time travel appears to Link. When he draws the Master Sword from the Pedestal of Time, he is surrounded by blue light, blacks out for a second or so, and then arrives seven years in the future as an adult. This trip can be expressed by a single, unbroken line.

1. Link draws Master Sword.
|
2. Link ages seven years.
|
3. Link awakes in the future.

To Link, the seven years of aging is instantaneous, as his consciousness has essentially been turned off. Now, let's create a hypothetical situation. Let's say that Hylee In was looking around the Temple of Time at some point after Link had originally drawn the Master Sword and returned to the past. Hylee In then seens a young boy dressed in a green tunic and funny cap run into the Temple of Time. Curious as to what the boy is up to, Hylee In decides to follow him. He stands outside the Door of Time, and watches Link as he grabs the Master Sword. Link is then engulfed in a blue light and vanishes completely.

Hylee In is then cast into a vegetative state of shock and now spends almost all his time inside the Temple of Time. Seven years later, while watching the spot Link had been when he disappeared, a man dressed in a green tunic and a funny cap appears out of a blue light. The man, completely shocked at what he has seen this time, runs screaming out of the Temple of Time, where his brains are consumed by a ReDead. These events can be represented by this line.

1. Hylee In sees Link grab Master Sword.
|
2. Link disappears in blue light.
|
3. Hylee In is in vegetative state of shock.
|
4. Link appears out of nowhere.
|
5. Hylee In runs from Temple of Time.
|
6. ReDeads feast on Hylee In's scrambled brains.

Essentially, this is a broken line. To anyone observing Link, Link's timeline is broken. However, to Link, his timeline is a continuous line. Even when Link goes back in time, his line remains a single, continuous line which always moves forward. To observors, however, he appears to skip around at random.

Now, that had nothing to do with the Song of Storms Paradox, but I felt that it would be worthwhile to explain it. So, let's look at the Song of Storms. As has been said, it creates a Chicken and the Egg Paradox. For the chicken to exist, the egg must exist. For the egg to exist, the chicken must exist. This works the same way as the Storms Paradox. For Link to learn the Song of Storms, the Windmill Man must have learned the Song of Storms from the "Ocarina Kid." For the "Ocarina Kid" to teach the Song of Storms to the Windmill Man, the "Ocarina Kid" must have learned the song from somewhere.

As we all know, the "Ocarina Kid" is Link. Or is he? Perhaps at some point, there was just some strange kid with a strange ocarina who played a strange song which drained the strange well. As in mohammedali's comment about the creator of a popular song becoming irrelevant, we see that the original Ocarina Kid becomes irrelevant. I think it all can be explained in this diagram.

1. Link pulls Master Sword from pedestal for first time and enters unconscious existence within the Sacred Realm.
|
2. "Ocarina Kid" comes to Kakariko and drains the well with the Song of Storms.
|
3. Link awakens from his sleep and travels to Kakariko, where he learns the Song of Storms from the Windmill Man.

After Link learns the Song of Storms from the Windmill Man, he goes back in time, assuming that he was the one who originally played the Song of Storms. So, now our line looks like this. Remember to read the events in numerical order.


1. Link pulls Master Sword from pedestal for first time and enters unconscious existence within the Sacred Realm.
|
5. Link arrives in past and travels to Kakariko to drain the well.
|
6. Link plays the Song of Storms and drains the well, and the Windmill Man learns the Song of Storms.
|
7. Link enters the well to find the "Eye of Truth," then goes back to the Temple of Time to return to the future.
|
2. "Ocarina Kid" comes to Kakariko and drains the well with the Song of Storms. The Windmill Man learns the Song of Storms from the "Ocarina Kid."
8. *Event 2 is replaced by event 8, which is as follows.* "Ocarina Kid" arrives in Kakariko, and sees that the well is empty. He continues on with whatever journey he was previously on, seeing that he can't use his mysterious song to cause chaos.
|
3. Link awakens from his sleep and travels to Kakariko, where he learns the Song of Storms from the Windmill Man.
|
4. Link travels back in time, assuming he was the one who originally played the Song of Storms. Return to 5.
|
9. Link arrives in the future again, and goes to Kakariko to enter the Shadow Temple. He sees that the well is still empty from his actions seven years ago.

As we can see here, there was an "Ocarina Kid" who was separate from Link who started the whole cycle. Once Link learns the Song of Storms and returns to the past to drain the well, he ends up replacing the "Ocarina Kid," who then becomes irrelevant to the course of events. A time loop is then created, wherein knowledge from the future is taken to the past, which is then carried on to the future to be taken to the past once more. In doing this, a paradox does not exist, so long as there was in fact an original "Ocarina Kid."
 

Cfrock

Keep it strong
Joined
Mar 17, 2012
Location
Liverpool, England
@gneithamer1
You just spent an inordinate amount of time to confusingly say the exact same thing as WenchyPichu. He said in two senteces what you said in 12 paragraphs and he explained it in a much clearer way.

The "Ocarina Kid" is obviously Link. We know this to be fact as we actually act out the very events Guru-Guru describes in the future period. He tells us about the "Ocarina Kid" who played the Song of Storms and then we go to the past and play that very song on the very ocarina, proving beyond doubt that Link was the "Ocarina Kid" he speaks of.

The fact that there is a paradox is simply something that cannot be explained and, frankly, doesn't matter. This is a predestination paradox and they are used all the time in fiction dealing with time travel. They come up in Futurama and Family Guy, The Twilight Zone and Harry Potter, Terminator, TimeSplitters, Lost and even Spongebob Squarepants.

The fact that Link learnt the song from Guru-Guru and then went to the past and taught it to Guru-Guru doesn't really matter in the same way it doesn't matter that John Connor sent Kyle Reese into the past to save his mother, and then Kyle got her pregnant with John. It doesn't matter that Phillip Fry is his own grandfather or that Spongebob Squarepants invented his favourite hobby, jellyfishing.
The fact Guru-Guru knows the Song of Storms in the future proves Link taught it to him in the past, even if Link hasn't done that yet. The fact he will means the effect exists for him in the future.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Top Bottom