Ocarina of Time So... Fire Temple?

[Golem]

(Ocarina of Time.)

These screenshots are from vids by this guy named OPFFIX on YouTube. They were very helpful in writing up my thoughts on the Fire Temple! I uh... I'm not trying to advertise for him, LOL, but I want to give credit where credit's due. The walkthroughs on zeldadungeon.net actually look pretty comprehensive, I might use them for further research.

The paragraphs below may sound a little weird, but that's because I wrote them for some other place. However, myself being a newbie to Zelda, I'd like to hear your thoughts on these paragraphs. I'd be grateful for any corrections or insights you could make! Not because I want to change what I've got written here, but I just want to learn. Zelda's got deep, rewarding gameplay, and I'm really scratching at the surface here.

Oh, and I kind of rushed through the part about the Water Temple. It's my favorite dungeon in the game , but when I got to that part I was just OUT OF STEAM from having written so much on the Fire Temple.

I'm also sorry if this violates some sort of image limit for this message board. I couldn't find any limits referenced in the rules, so I'm assuming what I've posted here is fine. If it's not, I apologize!

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The dungeons in Ocarina of Time all have distinct construction. Dungeons are constructed cohesively. Rooms interact with each other in a way unique to their respective dungeons, and the construction of any given room is unique to its dungeon as well. To put it more clearly: you couldn't take one room from the Forest Temple and put it in the Fire Temple. It would be out of place.

To prove this, I'd like to flesh out two dungeons that seem to be opposites. Interestingly, they are next to each other in the sequence of dungeons: the Fire Temple and the Water Temple.

The Fire Temple is built around strong hub rooms. Hub rooms act as central rooms with many outgoing paths, just as the castle acts as a hub in Super Mario 64 with many outgoing paths to different stages. When I say that these hub rooms are strong, I mean that they are detailed and that a large portion of time is spent in them. There are three of these hub rooms in the Fire Temple.

The first is just east of the opening room. On the map, it's an egg-shaped room towards the east. Just by looking at the map, you can see how this acts as a strong hub room. First, it's large, which suggests its strength. This room is a series of platforms (a bridge, some stray rocks, some stray platforms) and challenges the player with a pit of lava below; the player must take care in getting across this room, displaying its strength. The map also displays that it acts as a hub room; from here, the player moves forward to three other rooms.

There are two strong hubs on the third floor. The first one you encounter is the room towards the east (the right semicircle of the eastern circle).

Again, it's large, which suggests strength, and it also has multiple outward paths. This room puts Link in a maze where he must avoid rolling boulders. In addition, he returns to this room to walk along the top of the maze. This room also links to the left semicircle in three places, while the left semicircle itself provides a path onward. The left semicircle may be considered a strong room, as it engages the player to outrace a fire barrier, but its layout is simplistic compared to the hubs of this dungeon--Link outraces the flame on a fairly linear path. This room should be considered a path room, an idea I'll return to later.

The third strong hub is the large western room on the third floor. It's a large room, and it has multiple outward paths. The strength of this room lies in another maze technique, this time showing the borders of the maze only as Link draws near them. In addition, these borders are made of damaging fire.
Admittedly, the opening room breaks this formula. It acts as a hub room, leading you to many other rooms, but its own design is simplistic--there are no obstacles in your traversal of this room. Rather, it leads to strong rooms. Also, there is a path on the north side which loops back into the entry room, which is arguably an element more reminiscent of the Forest Temple. It may also be worth noting that this northern path is near the end of one's visit to the Fire Temple; here, one gets the boss key, the last thing necessary in this dungeon before facing the boss. The tone of this dungeon, then, changes only at its end--is this a purposeful move? Why would would someone make that call? It's a question to consider.

These hub rooms lead out often to small rooms with a single purpose: giving Link a key. However, there are two crucial exceptions. First, there are rooms create a path between hub rooms These involve simple puzzles, such as setting off a switch from a distance using a bomb.

One merely involves danger, the room where Link must outrun a barrier of flame. While these rooms do have substance, they don't demand as much time from the player as the hub rooms. Second, the room containing the hammer has the complexity of a path room; it places one obstacle in Link's path.

However, the room leads nowhere, and in a sense, this is the end of the dungeon. On the whole, these non-hub rooms either offer no or zero obstacles, while Link must face the obstacles of hub rooms again and again.

The gimmicks of this dungeon rarely center around an item Link owns. For instance, some path rooms require Link to set off a switch with a bomb. However, most of the rooms--and most importantly, every hub room--has a gimmick which does not require the use of an item. The three hub rooms are crossed by walking alone. In part, this makes sense due to the dungeon's place in the game's sequence. Link received weapons he used to a great extent in the Forest Temple, but since then, he has only received the Fire Tunic, which allows him to withstand high temperatures. That doesn't change gameplay at all, as it merely prevents the player from getting a game over in hot rooms, nothing more. Also, the item of this dungeon is the hammer, which is only used in this dungeon to hit certain switches. However, Link has hit many switches as it is, and this hardly changes up gameplay either. However, it also makes sense given the structure of the dungeon. If the puzzles of the hub rooms were complex, the player would be solving complex puzzles every time they need to get across the hub room. Say a given hub room leads out to four other rooms. If that hub room contains a complex puzzle, in order to hit every outgoing room, I would need to clear the puzzles within the hub room four times. Alternatively, if the puzzles only needed to be solved once, the hub room would become bland after the first traversal. The approach of the Fire Temple engages the player each time without annoying him/her with repetitive puzzles.

Here we have some good criteria for analyzing a dungeon's construction. One, what are its hub rooms like? Two, the dead-end rooms that hubs go out to? Three, the path rooms that hubs go out to? Four, what are the gimmicks used within the dungeon? With that guideline in mind, let's have a go at the Water Temple.

Hub rooms? There's only one hub in the Water Temple, that circular room at the bottom right. It involves no puzzles and is only used to access other rooms.

The outgoing rooms often are not paths, but instead dead ends. Also, traversing them takes great care--just by looking at the Water Temple map, they take up much more space than the hub room. One room, for instance, has you use the hookshot to ascend a series of descending platforms. Another has you use the metal boots to escape a whirlpool, hookshot across the room to reach a ledge you can't swim to, hit a switch, and finally fight some enemies. These rooms are detailed, and they require the use of items. They do a good job of offering a new gameplay experience, as well--players must sometimes mix use of the metal boots and swimming in order to navigate whirlpools. This actively engages the player in the task of swimming, something that Ocarina of Time otherwise glosses over. The Water Temple does this safely by making these rooms offshoots of a hub; there is no need to retraverse these rooms, so they may become detailed and involve complex puzzles.

This leaves a number of questions unanswered. For instance, why is Dark Link the miniboss of the Water Temple, and not some other dungeon? However, I think I at least have a start here.

 

[TVTMaster]

This thread is too interesting to go without comments. I did, in fact, notice how different dungeons use their structure in different ways to make the "get keys and items to open doors" mechanic feel fresh every time. For example, the forest temple had a main, yet empty hub that led to two smaller hub rooms. These rooms had multiple entrances that made use of the hookshot and elevation, and you essentially went and got everything you could from the path between the two- without certain keys, you couldn't keep going one way, so you'd try the other, and exhaust its possibilities, and then go back the other way with what you dug up. Going back and forth through these two paths provided a sense of what to do next- if one place is a dead end, try the other path. Other offshoots and lower levels were puzzle-filled catacombs with complex puzzles and keys and Poe sisters and whatnot.

I think I see what you're doing here- analyzing the structure of OoT's dungeons.

 

[Clucluclu]

I personally thought that Dark Link would have been better in the Shadow Temple. It threw me off a lot.

 

[Golem]

Yeah, exactly. Come to think of it, I don't even remember the subboss of that dungeon, just the sea-shanty singin' stalfos on that wicked boat ride.

Also, TVT, you're right on--I think that's exactly how the Forest Temple works. That's a great way of putting it, and I can retraverse the dungeon in my head the way you describe it. That arc of rooms on the northern end of the map is really the meat of the dungeon, and you spend your time carving into it.

I guess if I had to choose an opposite to the Forest, it'd be the Shadow Temple; it's more of a straight shot through the dungeon after you've gotten the Hover Boots. The most similar one to the Forest might be the Spirit Temple, with the Young and Adult portions representing the east and west sides of that arc in the Forest Temple. The major difference would be that you really only do the Young portion once and the Adult portion once.

 

[TVTMaster]

The miniboss of the Shadow Temple was the second Dead Hand, if I remember correctly. And yeah, the Shadow Temple was pretty much a straight shot. There were areas near the end where you traversed the same room over again after getting the key from one place, but really you'll only have to backtrack a lot if you get lost (or forgot the Fire Arrows in my case).

 

[DeletedUser9]

Very interesting analysis. I never really liked the Fire Temple (it's actually my least favorite dungeon,) but you've put it into a very intriguing light.

I've sort of analyzed dungeons before, but not in this sense. Not the actual design of the dungeon's rooms and puzzles, but rather, the art, atmosphere, and feel of them. I always felt the Fire Temple felt like a tower.

But this is really intriguing, and I think you're spot-on with these descriptions of the Fire and Water Temples.

As for Dark Link, he was odd, yeah, but I thought he fit. He's a shadow, a mirror image of Link, so what element caused reflections? Water. The whole battle functions like fighting a mirror image, as he mimicked your attacks. Additionally, using that premise, the Shadow Temple just wouldn't have worked because a reflection involves light. Or maybe I'm looking into it too much.

 

[Golem]

Atmosphere is something I gloss over in video games, which is unfortunate--it's crucial to a lot of games, such as Ocarina of Time. Studying the dungeon atmosphere of that game must've been pretty awesome and rewarding, it definitely seems rich.

I can definitely see how the Fire Temple feels like a tower, though; it's the tallest dungeon in the game. The rooms don't cover a lot of space on each floor--it's almost like the dungeon is taller than it is wide. It's interesting when you can see how atmosphere and gameplay go hand in hand like that. It's something I'd definitely like to see more of.

Also, that's a fair assessment on Dark Link. He does act like a creepy reflection of Link. While a shadow might resemble you, it's also cast on the ground, whereas a reflection looks every bit as real as you do.

I can also see, or at least guess, how the gameplay of the dungeon fits the water theme. Fire is something you just avoid touching, but water can freely flow around you. However, it also alters movement. This is going to open up a lot of new puzzle opportunities for designers. In addition, when making a room, you can code fire as a basic HURT element, but when the player interacts with water, it's not so basic. You can't capture the player's interest by having water hurt them, so... it's gotta do something else. It seems to me that this is why there are so many rich puzzles in this dungeon. You can only go so far with puzzles based around fire, but water does so much more to the player than fire; therefore, the puzzles can be much deeper.

In turn, that's why the dungeon is heavy in its offshoot rooms and light in its hub room. You don't want rich puzzles in a hub room, and if the dungeon is about rich puzzles, then your hub room is going to be weak.

What I'm stuck on, then, is--is there any relation between Dark Link and the rich puzzles caused by water? Dark Link makes sense as a water reflection, okay. The puzzles make sense as an exploration of how water modifies movement, okay. Is there any way in which these two elements can be related to one another? Does one necessitate the other? Or are these two totally unrelated aspects of water--movement and reflection?

It seems to me that they'd just be unrelated. Why would a programmer take the care to tie the dungeon together so strongly? There was probably just some meeting where Employee #322 (Larry) said, "what's our miniboss and what's our gameplay in the water dungeon?" Then #323 chimed in, saying, "water reflects, let's have Dark Link," and #324 said, "swimming is something we can harp upon in this dungeon!"

However, if one necessitated another, it'd go something like this:
"what's our dungeon about?"
"swimming puzzles"
"ah, swimming puzzles. then we MUST have dark link!"
Hum, does that make sense? I think that highlights the difference.

If Dark Link and the dungeon's gameplay are connected on this stronger basis, then I think the dungeon would be incredibly cohesive, something awesome to behold. As it is, they seem only vaguely connected through their relevance to water.

 

[Zeruda]

Very interesting study of the dungeon. I've not payed much attention to this before, but I suppose that the reason that hub rooms are more prominent in the Fire Temple compare to the Water Temple is more likely due to the lay of the land. Traversing the Fire Temple is mostly horizontal, whereas the Water Temple has much to do with swimming up and down a vertical design. If one had a model of the Water Temple and turned it on its side, the single Hub Room would probably appear to be much more important than it seems, even if it has little to do with the dungeon puzzles and more to do with its structure.

As for Dark Link being the miniboss of the Water Temple, that's a very easy answer. It comes down to the study of the Hero's Journey, and that particular part of the game is called "The Abyss" And "Transformation/Resurrection". "The Abyss" is more often than not water-themed (example: watery area, Luke faces a phantom Vader, and finds his own face under the helmet), and this is where the Water Temple comes into play. Here Link battles Dark Link, which is a representation of fighting his own impurities, just as Luke did. Notice the miniboss is given the prefix "dark", meaning all the negativity in man (greed, lust, vengeance, etc). After defeating himself, his is "transformed" (resurrected)- born again, and this is his passage from his former self to more hero with more insight to his own personal growth. These "Abyss" and "Resurrection/Transformation" steps of the Hero's Journey are found in every single story ever created, even before written story came about.

Sometimes it's not always water themed, but mirror themed, hence the watery, reflective floor during the battle between Link and Dark Link. So, that battle had a combination of both water and mirror themes. And, most of the time, the setting is either blue or green in stories when reaching that step of the Hero's Journey. That is the reason Dark Link is the miniboss of the Water Temple rather than any other.

 

[Golem]

Thank you, Joseph Campbell.

The difference between verticality and horizontality (uh, are those words?) in hub rooms is well noted--the Fire Temple is largely horizontal, so its hubs can be larger. On the other hand, in order to reach out to more rooms, the Water Temple's single hub has a vertical element. That way, it can have 3 floors of 4 outshoots for 12 total outshoots, instead of 1 floor with at most 8 outshoots. I think that's what you're getting at, at least?

The water level mechanic should definitely be noted for how it changes progression through the dungeon, as well. I'm not terribly sure how it does that, though, LOL. It opens up a lot of variability that might take some time to study. (This is where it'd be useful if Zelda games had level select codes.)

As for the bit about the hero's journey, that's all well and good for atmosphere, but I mean to ponder its relevance in terms of gameplay. I don't mean to dismiss what you say about the hero's journey--you're spot on there. Atmosphere is very important to game construction, of course, and any good game should make gameplay relevant to atmosphere and vice versa. However, I find gameplay to be underanalyzed--at least on the internet. So, when I question the relevance of Dark Link to the Water Temple, I don't mean to question how he fits in atmospherically, but rather in terms of gameplay.

You fight an enemy who fights largely similar to you, who uses similar sword swings and similar dodge moves. Furthermore, he can sometimes stop time, leap on your sword, and hit you (???). How is that relevant to the longshot puzzles, or the swimming puzzles? Why does Dark Link belong in a dungeon with longshot puzzles? Why couldn't he go in a dungeon with arrow puzzles or boomerang puzzles? With these questions I mean to set atmosphere aside and look solely at gameplay. There should be a gameplay theme at work here.

There's always the (horriffic) chance that I'm barking up the wrong tree; perhaps Dark Link has no gameplay relevance to the Water Temple, and he's only relevant in terms of atmosphere.

 

[Zeruda]

There's always the (horriffic) chance that I'm barking up the wrong tree; perhaps Dark Link has no gameplay relevance to the Water Temple, and he's only relevant in terms of atmosphere.

That's more than likely the case. That certain part of the Hero's Journey, like I mentioned, is usually in an area with reflection and water. It's also usually in areas that descend, much like the Water Temple descends deep beneath Lake Hylia. Dark Link- the actual enemy- more than likely has little or nothing to do with the mechanics and puzzles of the dungeon, but mainly just the "atmosphere".

In other terms, it fits. Much like a fire breathing dragon (Volvagia) fits a fire-themed temple.

 

[BOWSER102]

RE: Dark Link

You fight an enemy who fights largely similar to you, who uses similar sword swings and similar dodge moves. Furthermore, he can sometimes stop time, leap on your sword, and hit you (???). How is that relevant to the longshot puzzles, or the swimming puzzles? Why does Dark Link belong in a dungeon with longshot puzzles? Why couldn't he go in a dungeon with arrow puzzles or boomerang puzzles? With these questions I mean to set atmosphere aside and look solely at gameplay. There should be a gameplay theme at work here.

Yeah, I really think that you are indeed looking for something that's not there. Nor should it should it be there, imo. Why does a boss need to involve using your longshot just because the dungeon involves a longshot? Or boomerang and arrow puzzles for that matter. Not everything needs to be clear cut like that. Keep in mind that Dark Link is a MINI-boss, too. The main boss of the Water Temple is a giant aquatic amoeba named Morpha.

Not everything is gameplay-related, in the traditional sense. But I wouldn't call Dark Link an example of Zelda's atmosphere at work either. It's a matter of appropriate design and proper manifestation of themes. And above all else, what makes for an intriguing/exciting boss fight. I think it's pretty safe to say that fighting an alternate, mysterious evil version of yourself is fascinating in concept (as it always has been, as Zeruda noted) and at the same time, there's a challenge of fighting what is essentially your equal. It's Link versus Link! You've met your match, faced with the task of taking on the guy that is supposed to be the savior of all of Hyrule. You'd have to be pretty darn skilled a warrior to be that person. And that's why the battle exists in the first place, strictly from a gameplay perspective.

The obstacles mini-boss present in particular in Zelda don't necessarily have to be derived from the obstacles of the dungeon. For example, the Fire Dancer in the Fire Temple, and there's a mini-boss in the Spirit Temple that is just an armored knight, Iron Knuckle. The challenge has little to do with what you've previously encountered in their respective temples. But as said before, they fit thematically. That's all they really need to do.

 

[Flagpole]

People, the temples would be nothing without a "mission", what i mean is:

The Forest Temple would be nothing if you wouldn't kill 4 poes.
The Fire Temple would be nothing if you wouldn't free some Goronos.
The Water Temple would be nothing if you couldn't change the water's level.
The Shadow Temple would be nothing if you... well, didn't worl all your way until you find the Boss room?
the Spirit Temple would be nothing if you didn't have to "break" the big statue face, or make the suns (creepy suns) face the light... or making Link go through the temple as a child and an adult, each time using different weapons and items.

Also, with the only mini-boss you actually need to use the weapon you got, is the final Poe Sister at the Forest Temple (you know, when you have to shoot her with your bow).

 

[Steve]

Wow, this is a very nice analysis, I can believed I over looked this thread. I'm glad I'm not the only one who took note of the differentiating layouts of the dungeons, and that's really one of the key factors as to why Ocarina of Time is my favorite, is that it has a lot more diversity than people give it credit for. I agree with you too, Dark Link, seemed, out of place in that dungeon, and I also agree with whoever it was that said Dark Link should have been the Shadow Temple miniboss, that would have been a lot more fitting for him. I guess how he's the reflection of Link, that makes sense, but really he really just seemed out of place there.

As for Dark Link, he was odd, yeah, but I thought he fit. He's a shadow, a mirror image of Link, so what element caused reflections? Water. The whole battle functions like fighting a mirror image, as he mimicked your attacks. Additionally, using that premise, the Shadow Temple just wouldn't have worked because a reflection involves light. Or maybe I'm looking into it too much.

I partially agree, but Dark Link is usually considered more of a shadow than a reflection, which in that case, would make him work in the Shadow Temple. If the battle against Dark Link had more gimmicks and involved the hookshot, it would fit more for the Water Temple, in that case.

 

[Chrono]

Actually...Dark Link was only in the Water Temple due to the Water Temple was originally the Temple of Light (reference to AoL, via the Triforce). Dark Link was the mini boss in that temple during a certain stage of development.

As for the Fire Temple...I too have noticed how awesome the mechanics in this dungeon was.