Skyward Sword - Impa and time travel

[Mr. Ister]

*Just a warning ahead of time, if you haven't played SS this post will likely contain a spoiler or two*

We good?

Ok.

So in Skyward Sword, the main characters are presented in one of two points in time. There is the early time point, to which Zelda and Impa travel back to during the post-Lanayru Mining Facility cutscene. The endpoint of this time period results in Zelda sealing herself in the back room of the Sealed Grounds to keep Demise at bay. Then there's the later time point, which contains most of the main story, the majority of the combat, basically the bulk of the game that you actually play.

During the end-game cutscene after beating Demise, "Granny" is revealed to have been a much older (and fatter) Impa the whole time, the servant of Hylia (Zelda) who had been traveling around the world with Zelda.

There's an issue of continuity here with regard to the time travel though.

Throughout the game, but in particular during the cutscenes after the Earth Temple and Lanayru Mining Facility, Link catches up with Zelda and Impa as they're exiting the dungeon areas. The important detail here is that this takes place during the later/current time point.

However, in the course of our frequent trips to visit Granny at the Sealed Grounds, we also observe that Impa continues to exist simultaneously in "old Impa" form, even as she is elsewhere in the world as "young Impa" leading Zelda around.

So essentially, I see a gap in logic here that was never rectified in the game. I'm willing to suspend belief and buy the time travel elements, but it's hard for me to do so when one person is existing in two different places/bodies at the same time. It doesn't make any sense.

The only way out of this logical conundrum may lie with a brief sequence in the ending cutscene. After Granny is revealed to be old Impa (the purple bracelet is noticed) she sorta vanishes into thin air. It's feasible that the game is implying that Granny was some sort of hologram or specter, but given the amount of interaction between her and Link throughout the game, it seems unlikely.

Anyway, I was curious if anybody else noticed this while beating the game, or if maybe there's a detail explaining this that I missed along the way. Otherwise I see it as a big continuity error that's brought up right at the end of the game - not really a good spot to place one.

 

[Spiritual Mask Salesman]

Ah, the old “There can be only one!” deal. Two entities which are the same cannot coexhist in the same dimensional plane, according to theory. I guess the only somewhat logical explanation is that even though it is the same person they are not from the same era in time. Old Impa is from what could be considered “the present” (or the era which Link and Zelda are really from) in the game. Young impa is from “the past”. (An era which was before Link and Zelda's place in the fabric of time)

 

[Mr. Ister]

Interesting, I think that's where Zelda's idea of time travel and my idea of realistic time travel (in theory) diverge. It's tough for me to put my finger on, not being a theoretical physicist and all...but my understanding is that if you travel back in time to a younger version of yourself (as Impa did), your older self becomes sort of frozen in time, waiting for you to pass through time and catch up again to resume living in the present. Along the way, through the process of aging and time passage, you become the person that "awaits" you in the future. Impa became the old Grannie. She may have time traveled backwards, and assumed the body of her younger self, but she should not have duplicated herself (into a young and an old Impa).

I sorta had this discussion with someone in an OoT thread, and argued that just because Link went back in time at the end of OoT, does not mean that adult Link ceased to exist. This stuff sorta hits my limit of knowledge and logical capability, so I'm not sure how to resolve it. In my opinion though, it's safe to say one person cannot exist in two forms at one time point - Impa does in the game.

 

[ReveredPartisan]

I don't see a contradiction. Yes, they're the same person, they have some of the same memories (the earliest ones), but they're not the same entity. I see it as an anthropocentric assumption to claim that two variations of one human at different points in his/her personal timeline can't coexist. Hell, they're not even the same physically-- by SS, the atoms in Old Impa's body have cycled in and out possibly up to a few thousand times.

But what do I know. Just trying to think logically.

 

[Spiritual Mask Salesman]

Another theory which I have been tossing around is that if two of the same entities are coexhisting on the same dimensional plane at the same moment in time; things will be fine as long as two things are consistent. First being that the two entities are not from the same immediate era in time. The second is that there is a sustained rift in the fabric of time which allows a way for the version of the entity that time traveled (young Impa) to return back to the era that (she) is from.

There is a drastic age difference between the two Impas, the sustained rift in the fabric of time is the Gate of Time. Thing is this is still only a theory, a rather wild one at that. I was also thinking that maybe Old Impa was a spirit. I never really got that vibe at all in the game, but maybe that was what the developers were hoping to allude toward when Old Impa vanishes into thin air near the end of the game?

but my understanding is that if you travel back in time to a younger version of yourself (as Impa did), your older self becomes sort of frozen in time, waiting for you to pass through time and catch up again to resume living in the present.

Note the highlighted text. I'm not sure if you made a mistake when writing here which is why I want to ask you if you did. In the game it wasn't Old Impa that did any time traveling, Young Impa traveled foward in time (using the Gate of Time), not back. Is this what you really meant?

 

[Mr. Ister]

Sure, yeah just a minor error.

 

[Jamie]

Actually, in this particular case, Nintendo has it right for once. Real time travel would actually be you travelling to a different dimension that is identical to your own(at least, as far as we know). In this sense, both entities would exist in the same dimension at the same time. Travelling into your body makes no sense scientifically. That being said, time travel is super ****ed as soon as you get into it affecting the present and that's why it never works in any video game or movie properly. Temporary suspension of disbelief is required.

 

[ReveredPartisan]

...I get the feeling I'm missing something. Why can't the same person exist in two forms at the same point in time? What's the "logical conondrum?"

 

[Mr. Ister]

Because then it's not the same person

 

[Retro Ganon]

Good heavens, this debate is still going on lol.

OoT presented a similar paradox like SS seemingly does here.

Windmill Man:
Grrrrrrrrr! I'll never forget what happened on that day, seven years ago! Grrrrrrrrr! It's all that Ocarina kid's fault! Next time he comes around here, I'm gonna mess him up!
(take out the Ocarina)
What?! You've got an ocarina!! What the heck! That reminds me of that time, seven years ago! Back then a mean kid came here and played a strange song. It messed up this windmill! I'll never forget this song!
(learn Song of Storms)
(talk to him again)
Oh, no! A storm again!! You played the Ocarina again, didn't you!! Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!!

In theory, Link would have come from a separate time continuum during his travels in the past in order to bring about the necessary event above. Most people then used to argue that it wasn't Link at all and simply someone else that he took the place of once traveling back in time. But it was never that simple when considering how other parts of the Hero of Time's quest ordained him to use time travel to complete his adventure. The sequence of dialog while completing the Desert Colossus brought this to light.

Talking to Saria after Traveling Back in Time (found in text dumps - not game script):
What? Your ocarina sounds... different somehow... Have you been practicing a lot, Link? Are you looking for a temple? A mysterious bird once told me... "Eyes that can see through darkness will open in a storm." Do you have any idea what he meant by this?
(Contact Saria Later after Getting the Lens of Truth)
Where are you, Link? Are you looking for a temple? I once heard a mysterious bird say... "Go, young man. Go to the Desert Goddess with an ocarina." Do you have any idea what he may have meant by this?
(Contact Saria Later after making it to the Dessert Colossus)
Did you find all the temples yet?

I discovered this gem of a quote a long time ago when rummaging through text dumps, looking for stuff that may have been omitted from the actual game scripts. I don't even have to mention the references inside the Spirit Temple and what transpired between Kaepora Gaebora and Sheik outside, as they were the ones whom guided Link towards solving the riddles in the first place. The simple fact is that two Links existed at some point within the same universe while he was progression along the original course of his adventure.

Impa's case reflects this scenario very well in a way that she can act along side her former self (in or from another time continuum) whilst guiding the quests' outcome where it must lead in order to succeed.

 

[ReveredPartisan]

Because then it's not the same person

Yes?

They're not the same person. They're two variations of the same person, each with their own physical composition and consciousness. Problem solved, right?

 

[Spiritual Mask Salesman]

Yes?

They're not the same person. They're two variations of the same person, each with their own physical composition and consciousness. Problem solved, right?

Yeah that was my theory, that the drastic age difference, and the fact that the Gate of Time keeps a sustained rift in the fabric of time may allow them both to coexhist at the same moment in the same dimensional plane. Here is what I said in earlier posts...

Ah, the old “There can be only one!” deal. Two entities which are the same cannot coexhist in the same dimensional plane, according to theory. I guess the only somewhat logical explanation is that even though it is the same person they are not from the same era in time. Old Impa is from what could be considered “the present” (or the era which Link and Zelda are really from) in the game. Young impa is from “the past”. (An era which was before Link and Zelda's place in the fabric of time)

Another theory which I have been tossing around is that if two of the same entities are coexhisting on the same dimensional plane at the same moment in time; things will be fine as long as two things are consistent. First being that the two entities are not from the same immediate era in time. The second is that there is a sustained rift in the fabric of time which allows a way for the version of the entity that time traveled (young Impa) to return back to the era that (she) is from.

There is a drastic age difference between the two Impas, the sustained rift in the fabric of time is the Gate of Time. Thing is this is still only a theory, a rather wild one at that. I was also thinking that maybe Old Impa was a spirit. I never really got that vibe at all in the game, but maybe that was what the developers were hoping to allude toward when Old Impa vanishes into thin air near the end of the game?



Note the highlighted text. I'm not sure if you made a mistake when writing here which is why I want to ask you if you did. In the game it wasn't Old Impa that did any time traveling, Young Impa traveled foward in time (using the Gate of Time), not back. Is this what you really meant?

 

[Retro Ganon]

Yeah that was my theory, that the drastic age difference, and the fact that the Gate of Time keeps a sustained rift in the fabric of time may allow them both to coexhist at the same moment in the same dimensional plane. Here is what I said in earlier posts...

So which type of time travel do you believe in?

 

[Spiritual Mask Salesman]

So which type of time travel do you believe in?

All three put together, lol. Technically they all can happen but which one would happen? We just don't know.

 

[Retro Ganon]

All three put together, lol. Technically they all can happen but which one would happen? We just don't know.

Well, I've yet to see an example of a 'Fixed Timeline' in the series. If it were true, then the Split Timeline would virtually be impossible according to HH's logic. Parts of OoA and SS time travel kinda represent the Dynamic time travel theorem. I suspect this exception to the Multiverse rules played out at OoT's juncture were bent due to divine intervention... Hence the paradox effect that unfortunately rippled into the CT when Ganondorf received the ToP.