Spoiler Skyward Sword - Another Split in the Timeline? (SS Ending, Read at Your Own Risk!)

[JuicieJ]

Also, if this created "another time split" then Zelda wouldn't have been so concerned in wanting Impa going back to the future with them.

(sarcasm) Yes, because Zelda totally knew that it would create a branch-off in the timeline of a game series.

Also, there is room for a game before this that tells of the Demon King (ahem Akuma XP ) and there's also room after this for another story before OoT that would elaborate on Ganon's origins.

There's no need for another prequel to OoT or further explanation of Ganon's origins. Both are taken care of perfectly.

 

[thawk]

(sarcasm) Yes, because Zelda totally knew that it would create a branch-off in the timeline of a game series.

This doesn't make sense for it to make a branch-off. Director does not say it will be a branch off as he highly expressed with OoT. Impa stayed in her own time to protect the master sword or triforce or whatever. So if it branched of (even though it couldn't) it will be between SS Impa's past and SS's Link's future..... AKA, the same timeline as SS (middle of the game). And if Link has a new game for SS's past (same 'split' Link), then SS would be rendered null and void and probably the rest of the 3D series. Besides, branching off doesn't not complete the director's objective. It makes things worse.

There's no need for another prequel to OoT or further explanation of Ganon's origins. Both are taken care of perfectly.

I doubt that very seriously. And here are a few questions for that. If you can't answer them, then they aren't taken care of perfectly:

-Why the name Ganon?

-Ganon's Relation to Demise, considering Ganon is human and Demise is a demon without an origin other than being a resemblance to Japanese mythology?

-How human Ganon came to be connected with Demise (just can't be evil out of nowhere)?

-Since Demise is in the Master Sword, we need a story about the master sword that tells why there was no mention of a spirit inside of the master sword.

-Since an evil spirit is now inside the master sword, why is the master sword a representation of good?


For as far as i know, SS does not directly Link to OoT and OoT time does not directly link to SS from it's story. But we know SS comes before OoT because of Eiji.

Also, the way things when down, Demise was dead the whole time before the final battle but he's absolutely not dead now. It would seem that Ghirahim isn't dead either.

 

[SecretNerd-sshh]

Nintendos style of story telling is never going to just blatantly explain small details like those above. They are leaving things open for discussion by choice, so we will never have every detail about every detail. Also, OoT was never originally intended to split the timeline. It wasnt confirmed until sometime later that this was the direction nintendo was going. So, SS splitting the timeline again doesnt need a directors quote attached to it before release.

And lastly, anymore prequels to prequels or sequels to TWW anytime soon is seriously taking this series nowhere. They have room to fit in the dark inteloper story between SS and OoT, and an IW game on the new branch created by SS.

--TMC-->FS/FSA-->IW game-->Alttp ect ect
-/
SS--> Interloper game-->OoT-Tww/PH-->ST
---------------------------\
-----------------------------MM- TP

Two games and this timeline is making perfect sense with the potential split in SS. Also whos to say that Demise needs to just be ganon? He could be any main villain in this series for all we know. Evil reborn is evil reborn, and I dont think spirits or whatever you want to call him, is stuck to just one form, or even one at the same time. (Vaati/ganon-FSA)

 

[thawk]

Nintendos style of story telling is never going to just blatantly explain small details like those above.

Too bad those arent small details.

They are leaving things open for discussion by choice, so we will never have every detail about every detail. Also, OoT was never originally intended to split the timeline. It wasnt confirmed until sometime later that this was the direction nintendo was going. So, SS splitting the timeline again doesnt need a directors quote attached to it before release.

Their was never a time line. They are just patching things in to make it appear as one now. Just look at the timeline that Nintendo made in another thread that shows the Brazilian Zelda book. It makes no sense at all.

And lastly, anymore prequels to prequels or sequels to TWW anytime soon is seriously taking this series nowhere.

Truth! Too bad the next zeldas will be just that in order to patch up the mess that they've created.

Also whos to say that Demise needs to just be ganon? He could be any main villain in this series for all we know. Evil reborn is evil reborn, and I dont think spirits or whatever you want to call him, is stuck to just one form, or even one at the same time. (Vaati/ganon-FSA)

Demise isn't anyone else. What Demise speaks of is karma. That someone will always be there to take 'his place'.

Demise and Ghirahim aren't even dead right now They're just sealed in a sword just like Ganon is in FSA.

 

[SecretNerd-sshh]

Too bad those arent small details.

Everything regarding ganon is. I dont want to repeat myself later so read on.

Their was never a time line. They are just patching things in to make it appear as one now. Just look at the timeline that Nintendo made in another thread that shows the Brazilian Zelda book. It makes no sense at all.

I never stated they always had a timeline. You used Eiji Aunuma's statements of OoT splitting the timeline as a reason SS doesnt because he has yet to state it. ( IF it does indeed split in SS) I then said, the timeline split statement was made way after OoT was released, meaning, it doesnt matter if the Director has stated or not as of yet. Also, Nintendo of America wanted to release -a- timeline (as I dont think they even know either) in Nintendo Power for the 25th anniversary, and Nintendo rejected the request to do so, so the Brazilian magazine holds no water as it wasnt approved.

Truth! Too bad the next zeldas will be just that in order to patch up the mess that they've created.

Any game made taking place in between any existing game to tie things together is good. I was simply saying prequels to SS or sequels to ST are going to be a snooze fest as far as timeline connection. Really the only mess is the FSS, everything else really isnt a mess as nothing contradicts anything else.

Demise isn't anyone else. What Demise speaks of is karma. That someone will always be there to take 'his place'.

Demise and Ghirahim aren't even dead right now They're just sealed in a sword just like Ganon is in FSA.

If Demise isnt anyone else, then why are you so concerned with how he relates to Ganon? I understand hes not dead, which is why he is Ganon, and Ganon doesnt need to know that Demise is in him.

"Those like you... Those who share the
blood of the goddess and the spirit of
the hero... They are eternally bound to
this curse.
An incarnation of my hatred shall
ever follow your kind, dooming them to
wander a blood-soaked sea of darkness
for all time!"

Dictionary.com Incarnation literally means embodied in flesh or taking on flesh. It refers to the conception and birth of a sentient creature (generally a human) who is the material manifestation of an entity, god or force whose original nature is immaterial.[1] - Immaterial nature being hatred that demise stated above.

In its religious context the word is used to mean the descent from Heaven of a god, or divine being in human form on Earth.

So, to say that Ganon or any villain is not Demise is not correct. Ganon does not need to give permission to Demise to become evil, as he is Demise without consiously making the choice. Therefore needing anymore background or connection to Ganon is pointless, nintendo has everything covered through that quote above, without needing to hand feed any more.

The only pre-SS story we could ever possibly need is how Link embodies the spirit of the Hero. We know zelda is the bloodline god Hylia, and Ganon is the spirit of Demise. There can be multiple zeldas because bloodline can continue, but spirits always have an original form. So Link although not physically the same link, is the exact same Link in every game, because he is the spirit of someone we have yet to find out who. And Ganon will always be demise because ganon embodies his spirit.

All your concerns with the MS can easily be explained in a game as a side arc backstory.

 

[thawk]

Everything regarding ganon is.

Introducing a new character without having the audience understand it is bad storytelling. And it doesn't achieve what the director was going for. It only creates more of what the director is trying to 'fix'.

I dont want to repeat myself later so read on.

arrogance! xD

I never stated they always had a timeline.

Nobody said you did.

Any game made taking place in between any existing game to tie things together is good. I was simply saying prequels to SS or sequels to ST are going to be a snooze fest as far as timeline connection. Really the only mess is the FSS, everything else really isnt a mess as nothing contradicts anything else.

Again, it doesn't achieve what he was going for either.

If Demise isnt anyone else, then why are you so concerned with how he relates to Ganon? I understand hes not dead, which is why he is Ganon, and Ganon doesnt need to know that Demise is in him.

Just how everyone needs to be concerned with any character in any story. Because he is part of the story. Sure he does. Or there wouldn't need to be a care for SS. An antagonist without motive = bad storytelling. Just like in any other form of media.

"Those like you... Those who share the
blood of the goddess and the spirit of
the hero... They are eternally bound to
this curse.
An incarnation of my hatred shall
ever follow your kind, dooming them to
wander a blood-soaked sea of darkness
for all time!"

Dictionary.com Incarnation literally means embodied in flesh or taking on flesh. It refers to the conception and birth of a sentient creature (generally a human) who is the material manifestation of an entity, god or force whose original nature is immaterial.[1]

In its religious context the word is used to mean the descent from Heaven of a god, or divine being in human form on Earth.

So, to say that Ganon or any villain is not Demise is not correct. Ganon does not need to give permission to Demise to become evil, as he is Demise without consiously making the choice. Therefore needing anymore background or connection to Ganon is pointless, nintendo has everything covered through that quote above, without needing to hand feed any more.

His quote still means karma. If the main guy is Ganon throughout all these years and his name is just that, why would he alluva sudden have a different name? Ganon is not Demise. He says An incarnation of my hatred shall
ever follow your kind. Wow, within just 5 ppl? 100's of 100's of generations have past and all that can be accounted for by Demise saying that, is just around 5 main villians? Ya gotta be kidding me. It just means karma. Unless you find something that actually says otherwise, you can't prove otherwise. You can also say that the quote means through bloodline, but even that isn't answered.


This game does not deliver with it's promise of an origin. period. It's just merely a gateway drug now.

 

[SecretNerd-sshh]

I really dont know how to reply to you anymore because im not sure we agree on the same timeline theories and this conversation could get to deep. I mean, nintendo has released 16 games over 25 years and you want them to cover 100s of 100s of generations/thousands upon thousands of years?? Also, why are you bringing up 5 ganons? I thought it was common agreement there is 1, and possibly 2 because of FSS, but if timeline splits at SS there is no doubt only 1 ganon which would explain why his name is ganon lol.

He said an INCARNATION of MY hatred, im not sure how much more proof i can provide after showing you the actual definition of incarnation. Did you read it?

 

[thawk]

They've already covered 100s and 100s of generations already as told by the length each game. the whole focus is that there would have been more than 5 main villians.

Not once did I say 5 Ganons.

Incarnation of my hatred not incarnation of me... Hatred is a feeling. Not an object or a person. Therefore he is referring to the idea that there will be those who will continue his legacy.

 

[SecretNerd-sshh]

Dude, The incarnation of a sentient being is through the immaterial nature of the god....at birth,(which would explain ganon(dorf) not realizing what he is. The immaterial nature being hatred........of.........the god demise.

As far as there only being 5 villains that's not on me, that's nintendos style of story telling, we just know what they give us, other than that not much else to it, and nothing we can do. Did we know about the twilight realm in ocarina of time? Or did we ever here the tale of vaati in alttp or any other game before it? Who knows what will pop up in the future installments.

Your right though, you would think there would be more than that, but this is a never ending tale and look at nintendos track record with villains, mario anyone?

 

[thawk]

Dude, The incarnation of a sentient being is through the immaterial nature of the god....at birth,(which would explain ganon(dorf) not realizing what he is. The immaterial nature being hatred........of.........the god demise.

He is Demise. He is the one talking. If he was referring to himself then he would have said The incarnation of my being. We know he is going to come back because he's now inside the sword, but we do not know if he's going to have a child, or if he is going to take another identity, or if he will possess someone, OR if he is gonna possess someone having the child. That IS important to know. We still do not know Ganon's true origin. We know how the 'curse' starts. But we do not know how Ganon is 'born' from this 'curse'.

Demise spoke that the cycle will be neverending, but we only got a handful of ppl that represent his revenge over many centuries. Most of the time with it being only 1 main person.

 

[SecretNerd-sshh]

The reason why he didnt say incarnation of my being is because that isnt what incarnation is. Ive explained it over and over and im done with that, you say i need to show proof, the proof is in the word and definition, and the fact Demise said it in relation to hatred, something apart of a god that is able to be incarnated into a living being.

We have 2 back stories of ganondorf. One on how he became pig ganon with the trident in one timeline, how ganondorf was sealed in the twilight realm in the CT, and how ganondorf was killed in TWW. How demise chooses ganon we may never know, that isnt truly as important as you would think although I see why you think it is. I just dont expect much from nintendo and I take whatever they give me. But the fact is demises backstory adds to ganons. Ganon has depth, possibly the most out of any character in the series now.

I agree that there does need to be future explanation about the master sword in relation to demise. That is an important piece of story to the most important sword in the game that I brushed off at first. It would be awesome if the interloper back story is tied in with it as well. That would be money! Bottom line, I agree, this needs further explanation no doubt.

Again with the amount of villains, thats your weakest argument so far, because its very hypothetical on both ends and is strictly based on nintendos story telling and nothing to base proof either way, although what you think about so few villains i do agree with, I just developed a habit after tWW to just go with what they give.

 

[Faedeur]

We know he is going to come back because he's now inside the sword

Actually, going off what Fi and Impa said in the video, it sounds as if Demise is deteriorating inside the sword. His existance is being nullified.

Personally, I am with Secret Nerd. I feel that Demise's hatred, his spirit, resides in Ganon. That he is effectively reborn.

 

[thawk]

It is what incarnate means. You don't need to explain it to me, I'm past college just as well as others may be.

World English Dictionary
incarnation (ˌɪnkɑːˈneɪʃən) [Click for IPA pronunciation guide]

—n
1. the act of manifesting or state of being manifested in bodily form, esp human form
2. a bodily form assumed by a god, etc
3. a person or thing that typifies or represents some quality, idea, etc: the weasel is the incarnation of ferocity
4. a person or thing regarded as embodying or exhibiting some quality, idea, or the like: The leading dancer is the incarnation of grace.

1 and 2 deals with what you are saying. 3 and 4 deals with the metaphor of being like something else (aka a decendent, a child, successor, etc.)


It is a common rule of thumb for a story to elaborate on a concept.

We know he is going to come back because he's now inside the sword, but we do not know if he's going to have a child, or if he is going to take another identity, or if he will possess someone, OR if he is gonna possess someone having the child. That IS important to know. We still do not know Ganon's true origin. We know how the 'curse' starts. But we do not know how Ganon is 'born' from this 'curse'.

XD. I don't care what you say, the director did not fulfill what he set out to do. But I like how you thrive on the adjectives describing 'me' or my 'actions' without providing any shred of evidence that I am wrong and that you are right. Kinda sound like Fox News . Just remember that the definition says this too: represents some quality And it can be used in this sentence: Ganon is the incarnation of Demise's hatred.
A statement that could have several meanings and those meanings which are left unclear, is not evidence. It is the very thing that creates various untold possibilities.

I feel that Demise's hatred, his spirit, resides in Ganon. That he is effectively reborn.

Keywords = resides in Ganon. It doesn't make him Ganon. It makes Demise's concept and idea take effect because Ganon will be continuing what he started. His goal is effectively reborn within Ganon.

you kinda just unknowingly agreed with me...

This quote alone even says Ganondorf is not in the game. So Demise is not Ganon or else as I said earlier, he name would have been Ganon:

Eiji Aonuma confirmed on July 25, 2011, that Ganondorf is not planned to be in the game

 

[SecretNerd-sshh]

"This game talks about the birth of the Master Sword, and it touches on why Ganondorf showed up. If you play it, I think you’ll get some understanding on that." -Eiiji

Hylia is Zelda--do any future zeldas know this?
Link is the spirit of the hero -- does any future link know this?
Ganon is the spirit or whatever of demise -- does Ganon know this?

Does the spirit of the hero ever say to link in his mind, "Hey im inside you, this is what you are, and you need to do that" Never. Link is the spirit of the hero and that is what binds him to this ever going saga of good vs evil.

Ganon is not Ganon without the influence of Demise. Therefore Demise=/=Ganon. If you feel you need more explanation from nintendo, email em and let em know. You think its bad story telling, thats fine, maybe it is....it doesnt change the fact that Demise is in Ganon. You can accept it now or wait to see if nintendo makes a game where demise bangs twinrova and makes a baby ganon!

Its fine that you want further explanation on why Demise and ganon are intertwined. But to say that Demise is not ganon is not true, because ganon is not ganon without demise.

It would be different if Demise said an incarnation of hatred, without throwing in my.

 

[JuicieJ]

Wait, I just thought of something. Because it's actual time travel, the split wouldn't happen. In OoT, it was because Zelda created the split when she sent Link back to his own time. With this, it's just sort of changing the future, which never happened in the time Link left behind. So I really think this theory is debunked.