Twilight Princess Should Ganondorf Have Been in TP?

[Midna666]

It seems that a lot of people felt that Ganondorf should not have been in Twilight Princess.
They feel that it hurt Zant's character.

I personally think that Ganondorf added more to the story.
And I think that it added more depth to Zant.
I liked how when you got down to you saw that Zant was just a childlike person who thought that he was better then he really was.

 

[basement24]

I agree, Ganondorf was a good addition. It really gave a chilling angle to Zant and how he was so desperate to become a ruler that he would do anything, even selling his soul to the devil of sorts. It also accentuated the fact that while other villains may come and go, it all boils down to who has the Triforce of Power.

I know many would disagree to Ganondorf's addtion for the exact same reason that I liked it, and that's fine, but it really did make Zant into a little something more for me. I really did like that in the end he was just a snivelling man who'd been driven mad by the power of his false god.

 

[dur.i.am]

I can't really answer that poll for one reason, I neither think he should or shouldn't have been in TP, Of course with him being in TP using Zant like a Pawn added to Zant and showed us how much of a child like power hungry being he was, This added a lot to the plot which is the number 1 thing that made me love this game. One bad thing about Ganondorf being in TP though is that it cut off a major option (in my eyes this is enough to level out Ganondorf adding ot Zant), If Ganondorf was never there Nintendo could have made such a deeper back story about Zant, How he gained his true power (unlike his false power in TP) and his origins. That area could have opened a hell of a lot in terms of adding to the plot.

So as you can see, I am neither in favour or against Ganondorf being in TP, He added a lot and gave us an great 1-on-1 Sword fight but he also cut a lot of potential out for Zant.

 

[Cobalt]

Ganondorf will always be a staple of the Zelda franchise, having been the enemy in the (assumed) first game of the series, wielder of the Triforce of Power (BIG part of the games), and becoming the villain we all know and love as Ganon. So, I felt it natural that he made an appearance in the game that closed out the Gamecube and opened up the Wii. He had to be there, even if it was only cool symbolically.

Now, I too miss the fact that Zant was not elaborated on, and is abruptly revealed to be a pawn rather than the main villain. But it's basically the same thing that happened with Aganhim in ALTTP. Bad guy for most of the game, then BOOM, Ganon. What's sad about Zant is he's not just a power hungry evil doer. He was the classic case of a villain believing he was doing good. What he did, he did for his "people." He usurped Midna's power to protect his "people." He brought Twilight upon Hyrule as revenge for his "people." He believed he was King, and his deeds were admirable. And that's the best kind of villain, because there is no swaying them to do right. They already believe they are. Sadly, Ganondorf lacks this trait, and can be viewed simply as "evil incarnate".

So yes, I miss that Zant was not granted more time. Perhaps whoever does a comic or manga will do it right and flesh that aspect out.

 

[Zeruda]

Ganondorf is indeed a very important character to the series, being the mail villain and all, but I think his lack of screentime in Twilight Princess was fine- almost required. Really, it all makes a lot of sense. We see "flashbacks" of him being executed and banished to the Twilight Realm, and that really tied up loose ends with the CT side of OoT. Afterall, we left off with Link being sent back to his own time, and then he just ventured away. I remember back when those games were released, the big question was, "Well, what about Ganondorf now? What happens if Link doesn't go on that time-traveling quest?" So seeing him banished really tied that up.

And, because he was banished, it doesn't really leave a lot of room for him to have screentime in TP. It just wouldn't have been very imaginative if he randomly busted out of his prison. No, posing as a god and using a character who was weak at heart made much more sense. Really, I think it added even more depth to his character. It showed how sly he was- how he could plot and wreak havoc even from a different realm. It showed how merciless and greedy he was- Zant was his toy. Zant may have had good intentions, but he was still immature and greedy. So, Ganondorf played upon Zant's weaknesses in order to finally free himself from the Twilight Realm and ultimately have another stab at obtaining absolute power.

Really, Ganondorf was there. We just didn't see him. It's very interesting to see him pulling strings through another character. In ALttP, Agahnim was like a puppet/alter ego... think Naraku from Inu Yasha, if you're familiar with that series. Perfect example. But in TP, Zant wasn't an alter ego, he was another person with his own desires, and he was easily manipulated. I think that lack of actual screentime only emphasized how wicked Ganondorf really is.

So... TP without Ganondorf? No... it just wouldn't have clicked. Zant was interesting, but far too weak of a villain. His intentions weren't necessarily evil, so I don't think he'd have made a good overall main villain. I think Ganondorf needed to be there. They both emphasized each other's strengths and weaknesses.

 

[Master Kokiri 9]

I personally agree with Midna. Ganondorf being in tp was a good thing. It added to Zant's character, it added more to the story, and it was fun to see Zant all crazy (he was all mysterious at the beginning of the game but when you get to the palace of twilight he's insane i just love seeing him in the cutscene find Ganondorf and go all 'Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh').

 

[Werewolfy]

No, Ganondorf's being there was bad, and only hurt the game, as well as Zant, in my opinion. We didn't even know the story had anything to do with Ganondorf until the very end! This made him feel very tacked-on, and I felt that he was there for the sole purpose of making an appearance. That was a bad idea on Nintendo's part, considering that sticking anything into a game only for it to be there is a lousy idea itself. Look at the Slingshot in TP! How did that turn out? Badly done, that's how. It got replaced by the Boomerang, and later the Fairy Bow, way too quickly into the game.

Ganondorf enhanced Zant's personality? Sorry, but I don't see it. Zant was made out to be a very cool, very powerful, usurper until he revealed he followed Ganondorf. Then his character went downhill. He went from a cool, shady character, to a whiny, pathetic brat before you could say "Oh shoot!" Zant revealed that he depended solely on this "god" of his, and then threw a temper-tantrum of a battle. He wasn't even that powerful, as it turns out, since his fight was easy. It was so easy, it was mocking. Of course, this isn't saying much about the game itself, considering all the bosses were total push-overs, Ganondorf included, but I was still majorly disappointed in the fight, as well as Zant's character.

I really think Ganondorf would have fit into the game a lot better, if one of two things were done:
1.) He was said, or implied, from the start to be in the game. Rather than be shocked at his "appearance" later in the game, this way we'd have seen it coming, and would have known that Zant wasn't all he was made out to be. This could have worked for TP, but the next idea would fit in better.

2.) Ganondorf was made out to be the main bad guy from the start. No Zant. At all. Then Nintendo could have given Zant his own game, and made him out to be a much cooler, much more powerful bad guy than he really was in the end. I, personally, think this would have worked, if Nintendo decided to do it. Because, in a way, Ganondorf did belong in TP, but at the same time, due to bad planning and such, he wasn't.

So really, he was a good idea, and he wasn't. In the scenario given in the game itself, he was a bad idea, considering he destroyed Zant's potential, and felt really tacked-on. It was likely just a case of extremely bad planning, lots of ideas floating around, and so on, and it should have been edited and cleaned up at the end, for the end product.

 

[Ver-go-a-go-go]

To be honest, without Ganondorf in TP, the game would have been so much shallower. A great plot element of secret control was added in with him, and it was worked out to perfection. Zant WAS NOT major villain material. I really don't care if some of think he was, because it you take the time to really go in depth with his character, and his motivation, it's easy to come to the conclusion that he would have made a shallow final boss, and a very bad story would come along with him.

So no, Ganondorf saved the game. Without him, we would have had a lame plot and plot twists like WW.

 

[Werewolfy]

To be honest, without Ganondorf in TP, the game would have been so much shallower. A great plot element of secret control was added in with him, and it was worked out to perfection. Zant WAS NOT major villain material. I really don't care if some of think he was, because it you take the time to really go in depth with his character, and his motivation, it's easy to come to the conclusion that he would have made a shallow final boss, and a very bad story would come along with him.

So no, Ganondorf saved the game. Without him, we would have had a lame plot and plot twists like WW.

Now this is debatable. I mean, we didn't even get to know what Zant was really like, thanks to Ganondorf's introduction into the series. He came up every now and again, and most of those times was him being mentioned. So, my thoughts on this, is that it's hard to really jump to a conclusion about Zant's villain material, without more information about him. Midna made him out to be powerful, and he seemed to demonstrate that when he sucked the life out of her. This seems like villain material to me.

What we do have is that he was an over-dependent character, who relied on Ganondorf for everything. However, how do we know what he would have been like if Nintendo decided to make him the main villain, rather than Ganondorf? Do we have any idea how his character at the end might have changed, for better or for worse? Please do cite sources if you have information regarding this, even if it's the game, since I haven't played it in ages.

 

[Cobalt]

I have no sources, this is clearly speculation.

Zant seemed to be gravitating toward the villain who believes what he does is for the greater good. I think I went into this in my last post. Had Ganondorf not been revealed to be behind his actions, I think Zant would have proved to be a formidable opponent. A man who is evil, like Ganondorf, simply does evil for evil's sake. Zant, on the other hand, would have been doing what he viewed was right, and that would have made his confrontation with Link all the richer, with Link being viewed as the villain. In Zant's eyes, it would have been Hero vs. Hero, not Hero vs. Villain. And I must admit I think that would have been something worth playing towards.

 

[Ver-go-a-go-go]

Now this is debatable. I mean, we didn't even get to know what Zant was really like, thanks to Ganondorf's introduction into the series. He came up every now and again, and most of those times was him being mentioned. So, my thoughts on this, is that it's hard to really jump to a conclusion about Zant's villain material, without more information about him. Midna made him out to be powerful, and he seemed to demonstrate that when he sucked the life out of her. This seems like villain material to me.

What we do have is that he was an over-dependent character, who relied on Ganondorf for everything. However, how do we know what he would have been like if Nintendo decided to make him the main villain, rather than Ganondorf? Do we have any idea how his character at the end might have changed, for better or for worse? Please do cite sources if you have information regarding this, even if it's the game, since I haven't played it in ages.

What you have to do is think: Would this have a mad a bigger impact on the story. To have another villain, clear out of the blue, never seen before, and have him as the major antagonist of what was hyped to be the best Zelda of all time. This isn't to say other villains are bad. Majora kicked ***, but MM wasn't a highly anticipated sequel that was going to try and break Zelda records like OoT. Majora also canceled out many plot elements as well, and this is my main point. Ganondorf is in fact a staple of the series. You cannot convince me that for a game of TP's magnitude, it could have had a better plot without him. For those of us who try to follow a slim timeline, Ganondorf's inclusion was a VITAL part in the story of the Legend of Zelda. Having no one but Zant would have proved for a huge huh factor when it came to this. My main point? Plot elements. Plot elemets, plot elements, plot elements. Nothing that the Zant character could have been could compare with the deception and puppet playing element that was added, along with, as I mentioned above, the timeline. Seeing where the Triforce of Power went, what happened to him after OoT, and the fate of the sages could not be matched with just an improvement to Zant. NOTHING. He allowed the story to go deeper in a broad perspective, and it goes back to my original post. Shallowness. Ganondorf prevented a shallow game compared to others when it came to plot and story, and helped us truly recognize TP's place as a distant sequel to OoT. A tale of revenge follows with Ganondorf, as he seeks the destruction of those responsible for his defeat and imprisonment in OoT. Once again, no improved Zant could have made better plot elements than a story of revenge through deceit and manipulation of another power hungry fool. With Zant as a stand along, we had a guy who was poweful and wanted to take over the world of light. Compared to the above elements, bland and boring in my opinion.

Debatable of course. That's what a forum is all about. But I see plot elements as a HUGE advantage to Ganondorf, and plot is really all that matters on this subject.

 

[Werewolfy]

I have no sources, this is clearly speculation.

Zant seemed to be gravitating toward the villain who believes what he does is for the greater good. I think I went into this in my last post. Had Ganondorf not been revealed to be behind his actions, I think Zant would have proved to be a formidable opponent. A man who is evil, like Ganondorf, simply does evil for evil's sake. Zant, on the other hand, would have been doing what he viewed was right, and that would have made his confrontation with Link all the richer, with Link being viewed as the villain. In Zant's eyes, it would have been Hero vs. Hero, not Hero vs. Villain. And I must admit I think that would have been something worth playing towards.

Yeah, I really think Zant had villain potential, as I've said previously. Ganondorf seemed to steal his thunder at the end there, which I found disappointing. I was hoping to at least see him go out with a bang, but instead, he turned out to be a dud. It wouldn't have been half as bad, if Zant at least kept his cool, and was revealed to be Ganondorf's right-hand man, instead of his puppet.

What you have to do is think: Would this have a mad a bigger impact on the story. To have another villain, clear out of the blue, never seen before, and have him as the major antagonist of what was hyped to be the best Zelda of all time. This isn't to say other villains are bad. Majora kicked ***, but MM wasn't a highly anticipated sequel that was going to try and break Zelda records like OoT. Majora also canceled out many plot elements as well, and this is my main point. Ganondorf is in fact a staple of the series. You cannot convince me that for a game of TP's magnitude, it could have had a better plot without him. For those of us who try to follow a slim timeline, Ganondorf's inclusion was a VITAL part in the story of the Legend of Zelda. Having no one but Zant would have proved for a huge huh factor when it came to this. My main point? Plot elements. Plot elemets, plot elements, plot elements. Nothing that the Zant character could have been could compare with the deception and puppet playing element that was added, along with, as I mentioned above, the timeline. Seeing where the Triforce of Power went, what happened to him after OoT, and the fate of the sages could not be matched with just an improvement to Zant. NOTHING. He allowed the story to go deeper in a broad perspective, and it goes back to my original post. Shallowness. Ganondorf prevented a shallow game compared to others when it came to plot and story, and helped us truly recognize TP's place as a distant sequel to OoT. A tale of revenge follows with Ganondorf, as he seeks the destruction of those responsible for his defeat and imprisonment in OoT. Once again, no improved Zant could have made better plot elements than a story of revenge through deceit and manipulation of another power hungry fool. With Zant as a stand along, we had a guy who was poweful and wanted to take over the world of light. Compared to the above elements, bland and boring in my opinion.

Debatable of course. That's what a forum is all about. But I see plot elements as a HUGE advantage to Ganondorf, and plot is really all that matters on this subject.

And this contains truth as well, and goes back to what I've said: Ganondorf would have fit into the game much better, if one of two things were done.

1.) He was said, or implied, from the start to be in the game. Rather than be shocked at his "appearance" later in the game, this way we'd have seen it coming, and would have known that Zant wasn't all he was made out to be. This could have worked for TP, but the next idea would fit in better.

2.) Ganondorf was made out to be the main bad guy from the start. No Zant. At all. Then Nintendo could have given Zant his own game, and made him out to be a much cooler, much more powerful bad guy than he really was in the end. I, personally, think this would have worked, if Nintendo decided to do it. Because, in a way, Ganondorf did belong in TP, but at the same time, due to bad planning and such, he wasn't.

One of these things being done would have increased the quality of the game, in my opinion. And with the second one, we open up another door: another Zelda game, only with Zant instead of Ganondorf. This way, TP could have kept Ganondorf, and I would be fine with that if he at least didn't feel tacked-on like he did, and Zant could get a game to himself. Whether it be some kind of sequel to TP, or a game all by itself, does not matter. Another game would have suited Zant, since he'd finally get to be his own villain. I would have liked to see this, and he might still be able to be redeemed, if Nintendo let it happen.

So let's just say Zant does come back later, after having gone through a complicated change of character. It's in a new game, some kind of TP sequel of course, and he's ditched Ganondorf all together. He plots evil, Link destroys him, and the final confrontation reveals everything, as it always does. Or maybe there's another game, not directly related to TP, that has a main villain much like Zant was first made out to be, but isn't "ruined" at the end by someone else.

These, of course, are just ideas. Ideas I got because I was so disappointed with how Zant turned out, since I had such high expectations for him the entire time. They don't need to happen, but I wouldn't mind seeing one of them happening, preferably the second one, since the first one would be a little hard to implement properly, given the scenario.

 

[Ver-go-a-go-go]

t into the game much better, if one of two things were done.

One of these things being done would have increased the quality of the game, in my opinion. And with the second one, we open up another door: another Zelda game, only with Zant instead of Ganondorf. This way, TP could have kept Ganondorf, and I would be fine with that if he at least didn't feel tacked-on like he did, and Zant could get a game to himself. Whether it be some kind of sequel to TP, or a game all by itself, does not matter. Another game would have suited Zant, since he'd finally get to be his own villain. I would have liked to see this, and he might still be able to be redeemed, if Nintendo let it happen.

So let's just say Zant does come back later, after having gone through a complicated change of character. It's in a new game, some kind of TP sequel of course, and he's ditched Ganondorf all together. He plots evil, Link destroys him, and the final confrontation reveals everything, as it always does. Or maybe there's another game, not directly related to TP, that has a main villain much like Zant was first made out to be, but isn't "ruined" at the end by someone else.

No, I don't think "introducing" Ganondorf either later or sooner would be better. In fact, you don't truly know Ganondorf is the main villain until after Zant's defeat. He's introduced later in the game, roughly half way, and with this, brings more plot elements. Is he going to play a big part here? Is he truly dead in the Twilight Realm? Could, perhaps behind Zant's mask, be Ganondorf? These questions and plot elements only work with the way Ganondorf was first introduced in that mysterious cut scene after Lakebed Temple. If you wanted to give us suspense that it brought, then that's fine. But I, and many others, do find suspense about one or multiple characters to be a big part in enjoying a game's plot. I also disagree with the "tacked on" point you make, but I've already addressed his utter importance on so many issues on my earlier post, and I don't wish to repeat myself.

You also mention a sequel in which Zant is a main villain. If I'm getting your point, you're assuming the events of TP occur, only with Zant as a main villain in this sequel and that he survived the events of TP. Yeah, I could like that, but it's off topic. I'm all for a TP sequel where Zant might somehow return, but this is seriously non-topical. What's in the future has nothing to do with the current discussion.

 

[Werewolfy]

No, I don't think "introducing" Ganondorf either later or sooner would be better. In fact, you don't truly know Ganondorf is the main villain until after Zant's defeat. He's introduced later in the game, roughly half way, and with this, brings more plot elements. Is he going to play a big part here? Is he truly dead in the Twilight Realm? Could, perhaps behind Zant's mask, be Ganondorf? These questions and plot elements only work with the way Ganondorf was first introduced in that mysterious cut scene after Lakebed Temple. If you wanted to give us suspense that it brought, then that's fine. But I, and many others, do find suspense about one or multiple characters to be a big part in enjoying a game's plot. I also disagree with the "tacked on" point you make, but I've already addressed his utter importance on so many issues on my earlier post, and I don't wish to repeat myself.

I had seriously forgotten about the cutscenes which display Ganondorf with the Mirror of Twilight. Your post reminded me of this. Okay, so now that I have a better handle on the situation, I can understand where you're coming from more. He did kinda feel tacked-on, though, in a sense. So we kinda knew he was in the game, but we weren't sure about his role. Unconciously we, or at least I, assume that he and Zant don't have much to do with each other. At least, not in the sense that Zant worshipped Ganondorf.

We do, however, have an idea that Ganondorf has something to do with the Mirror. What, we don't know yet, but the sages seem to dislike him. And we know Zant to be an usurper of sorts, from what Midna had been saying, who wanted to ultimately rule the Twilight Realm. So how do Zant and Ganondorf connect? Bigger than we could imagine, right?

Now, to me, Zant in the beginning seemed like a cool, independent kinda guy. He seemed to have power, motivation, and potential to be a good villain. However, we soon find out he's none of those things, when we find out that Zant worships Ganondorf. For me, this completely ruined his image, and in that sense, Ganondorf was "tacked-on" to Zant, if that makes sense. Nintendo threw him in the mix of Zant there, making him a worthless character for the most part, and truly pathetic when it came to power. He had none, and certainly none of his moves were impressive, at least to me.

So Ganondorf ruined Zant, in the sense that Zant would have been better off not woshiping anyone. He would have been cooler. In fact, if Ganondorf did have to be in TP, I wouldn't have minded seeing them be contrasting forces. What if they didn't like each other at all? One got in the other's way, making them hate each other. This would have made Zant out to be a lot cooler, in my opinion, and could have easily worked, if Nintendo chose to make it work. They don't necessarily have to go head-to-head, just bad-mouth each other.

This is also a rough idea, so try not to take it at face value, but rather, imagine a TP where Zant doesn't rely completely on Ganondorf.

You also mention a sequel in which Zant is a main villain. If I'm getting your point, you're assuming the events of TP occur, only with Zant as a main villain in this sequel and that he survived the events of TP. Yeah, I could like that, but it's off topic. I'm all for a TP sequel where Zant might somehow return, but this is seriously non-topical. What's in the future has nothing to do with the current discussion.

Another very rough idea I had. It is kinda off-topic, but I figured I might as well explain it, so that some of the things I said made sense. It doesn't have to be a direct sequel to TP, either. Or TP could have two direct sequels, one involving Ganondorf, the other involving Zant, thus further complicating the series. It might work, in the sense that OoT worked with the time-split.

 

[Clucluclu]

I relt like it hurt the story a bit, but it added four of the greatest final boss fights ever for me. Ganondorf belonged.