Shadow Link In SS

[link'sneighbor]

i didn't care as long as they made the battle good enough

 

[erceos33]

To be honest, I'm ok with the fact that Dark Link not in SS since the 3ds remake of Ocarina of Time with Dark Link didn't came out so long ago, so its not like we haven't got the chance to fight dark link again for a long time.

 

[LnktheWolf]

dark link would have been epic if he was in there blocked your attacks and attacked on his own AI. Just total epicosity

 

[DeletedUser9]

Wanting Dark Link to be in Skyward Sword has two major problems:

1. Dark Link is overrated.
2. Skyward Sword broke away from series cliches.

Dark Link has never been an important character. He first appeared as the final boss of AoL, but without any explanation or plot. Then he didn't appear for many years until Ocarina of Time, and again he didn't appear for many years until his cameo in Twilight Princess. Dark Link is rarely used and completely unimportant. His only value is as fanservice "an evil Link lol!". There's nothing wrong with fanservice in moderation, but it should never be mistaken as something that needs to be part of a story. By definition of being fanservice, it's just something you think is cool. That's literally the only reason Dark Link is ever put into the game: People find the idea of an evil Link cool. He has no other value.

Skyward Sword avoided a lot of obvious cliches in the series, including having a Gohma (even though Moldarach could have easily just been Gohma), having Ganondorf, etc. etc., so it would have been very out of place to include Dark Link. I don't mind the series having these cliches from time to time, but I greatly mind people denouncing their absence as a flaw, especially things like Dark Link or Gohma. They do not add anything to the game in any remotely objective sense.



That said I do think it might have been neat if in perhaps the final battle with Ghirahim...

Spoiler

He turned back into a sword and manifested a mirror image of Link to wield himself. It would have been cool because it would have cemented Ghirahim as a character who fills both Fi AND Link's role on the evil side.

But cool or not, it's fine how it is and I respect that they didn't include Dark Link.

I too think they missed out heavily. None of the "sword fights" in this game felt like sword fights. Dark Link could use his own 1:1 swordplay where he DOESN'T have to track your every movement. That'd make for an amazing boss fight, unlike the quintillion phases of Ghirahim.

How do none of the battles feel like actual sword fights? Virtually every single miniboss and all of the Ghirahim battles use detailed sword combat, and I don't understand your reasoning as to how Ghirahim doesn't.

 

[MiniMouseofPyru]

Well, I don't think it would make much sense if Dark Link was in SS. Technically, SS is the beginning of the Legend. So I don't think Dark Link would actually exist.

 

[DeletedUser9]

Well, I don't think it would make much sense if Dark Link was in SS. Technically, SS is the beginning of the Legend. So I don't think Dark Link would actually exist.

Dark Link has no relevance to the timeline, because in every single appearance he's had his appearance was either not explained at all, or explained in a way that was 100% different from all the others. There are actually zero means to connect any of the Dark Links as the same entity, and assuming that they are is not only completely presumptuous but also makes no sense. He's simply a construct recreated through different means from game to game. Nothing actually stopped him from appearing in Skyward Sword.

 

[MiniMouseofPyru]

Dark Link has no relevance to the timeline, because in every single appearance he's had his appearance was either not explained at all, or explained in a way that was 100% different from all the others. There are actually zero means to connect any of the Dark Links as the same entity, and assuming that they are is not only completely presumptuous but also makes no sense. He's simply a construct recreated through different means from game to game. Nothing actually stopped him from appearing in Skyward Sword.

I was thinking of that after my post and realized it didn't make much sense. At all. But in Four Swords Adventures, Dark Links were created by the the Dark Mirror. It's possible that someone could've used the Dark Mirror to make an image of Link in SS, but it's unexplained whether or not the Dark Mirror was even created so early in the timeline, especially since FSA takes place at the end of the Child Timeline.

 

[Shiekah student]

Yeah your right SS missed so many opertunities that would made it awesome

 

[Ronin]

Dark Link has never been an important character. He first appeared as the final boss of AoL, but without any explanation or plot. Then he didn't appear for many years until Ocarina of Time, and again he didn't appear for many years until his cameo in Twilight Princess. Dark Link is rarely used and completely unimportant. His only value is as fanservice "an evil Link lol!". There's nothing wrong with fanservice in moderation, but it should never be mistaken as something that needs to be part of a story. By definition of being fanservice, it's just something you think is cool. That's literally the only reason Dark Link is ever put into the game: People find the idea of an evil Link cool. He has no other value.

This is probably the biggest issue I have with Dark Link being in Skyward Sword. Little of this has to do with me not wanting him to appear, because I was actually hoping he would. But the disappointment of that not coming true helped me to realize it would've been fanservice (admittedly Axle also gave me a nudge in that direction). The truth has already been stated by Axle, yet there are a few more avenues that could be explored.

It's been argued that the return of Dark Link couldn't have been part of the main story because he never was a big contributor to the timeline. Nonetheless, I think his potential was most suited for Skyward Sword. Think back to his prior appearance as an actual enemy in a Ocarina of Time, where he mirrored almost every single movement of Link. That opposition could've been carried over to Skyward Sword and implemented in very different but challenging ways. Inadvertently Ghirahim featured somewhat of the same competitive mindset, and adding Dark Link would thereby make that superfluous.

An additional thing that disallows for Dark Link to resurface is the lack of his purpose. What might his motives be besides overcoming Link, his benevolent counterpart? Again, as Axle said, this would come off as a cliche and wouldn't help this character to grow. If anything, Nintendo should have "introduced" Dark Link in Skyward Sword and given him a good backstory that explained his ambitions and still retained an air of mystery about him. Yeah, he was "produced" in Adventure of Link by Ganon somehow. But if we're going to stick to this chronologically, he first showed up in OoT and later reappeared as the chief baddie in AoL, according to the Official Timeline, courtesy of Nintendo.

Howbeit, I feel I must reiterate so that this point isn't lost. For Dark Link to have roots, officially, in Skyward Sword would be unnecessary. He's more of a cameo above anything as most fans are taken by his character and moveset. Regardless, he could work under the right set of circumstances, and I would also be intrigued if an origin story was issued for Link's Shadow, with him as the protagonist.

 

[DeletedUser9]

An additional thing that disallows for Dark Link to resurface is the lack of his purpose. What might his motives be besides overcoming Link, his benevolent counterpart? Again, as Axle said, this would come off as a cliche and wouldn't help this character to grow. If anything, Nintendo should have "introduced" Dark Link in Skyward Sword and given him a good backstory that explained his ambitions and still retained an air of mystery about him. Yeah, he was "produced" in Adventure of Link by Ganon somehow. But if we're going to stick to this chronologically, he first showed up in OoT and later reappeared as the chief baddie in AoL, according to the Official Timeline, courtesy of Nintendo.

Howbeit, I feel I must reiterate so that this point isn't lost. For Dark Link to have roots, officially, in Skyward Sword would be unnecessary. He's more of a cameo above anything as most fans are taken by his character and moveset. Regardless, he could work under the right set of circumstances, and I would also be intrigued if an origin story was issued for Link's Shadow, with him as the protagonist.

While it sounds like a neat idea, this would be fundamentally bad for reasons I already touched on: Dark Link's nature and origin is completely different from game to game. In Adventure of Link his appearance is open to interpretation (he's usually thought to be a final test given by the Triforce OR a conjuration of the sorcerer; he can't be Ganon's doing because Ganon is still dead), in Ocarina of Time he's an unimportant spell conjured as part of the chamber's illusion, in Four Swords Adventures he's a creation of the Dark Mirror, and in Spirit Tracks he's a meaningless bonus boss. Including some kind of backstory explanation for ALL of the Dark Links would rape the timeline.

Dark Link must always remain a separate instance in each game.

 

[Ventus]

How did none of the battles feel like actual sword fights? Virtually every single miniboss and all of the Ghirahim battles use detailed sword combat, and I don't understand your reasoning as to how Ghirahim doesn't.

Detailed sword combat, srsly Axle? Maybe in comparison to elder Zelda titles, but not in comparison to most 2011 ACTION-adventure games where it typically does not deliver combat via "walk up to PC, wait, attack, back up, repeat". Oh, and most ACTION-adventure games don't let the AI gape at your weapon, rather they're sprung into ACTION immediately as the AI notices your player character.

What I'm saying here, is, the minibosses (I'll save Ghirahim for later and I may not be talking about swordplay exactly moreso Ghirahim's tactics) do not deliver the engrossing experience that I thought they would. The AI is too simple, it's weak, it's basically bad. Games from the before time (talking 2006 backwards) came up with better enemy tactics. Waving the sword around to make the enemy's head essentially spin in circles then taking a couple stabs isn't a sword fight, at least not one with a professional sword fighter [the minibosses and the bosses should at least be proficient in the ways of the blade if Ghirahim hopes for anything, which he clearly doesn't]. Any true warrior knows to keep his head in the fight, not inside the enemy's blade. Not even Scervo or his brother felt like a swordfight -- it was stab stab stab bash stab stab stab backflip stab stab stab. No dueling, no actual fighting, just the player character winning. All because the AI sucks. Agree or disagree here, I don't really care. This is how I saw and see the entirety of the game.

Now, for Ghirahim. As I said way back when the SS demo of him was out, he is EASILY loopable. In his first two phases he is in, you can basically wave your blade around and with a little nudge on the C Stick, trick his butt out into a quick and easy defeat. His final phase is nothing but a guessing game, which is more or less luck based rather than skill based. I'll provide some videos -- these are professional runs, but I can do very much the same with a massive sink in the time it takes for me to finish because I'm a slower player.

OBVIOUS SPOILERS ARE OBVIOUS


Skyward Sword: Ghirahim (1) - 10.39 - YouTube [Ghirahim I]
Skyward Sword: Any% Test Speed Run - Segment 56 - YouTube [Ghirahim II]
Zelda: Skyward Sword Ghirahim 3rd in 0:39:93 - YouTube [Ghirahim III]

OBVIOUS END OF SPOILERS ARE OBVIOUS

That was just from the feel of the battle and the speed with which is possible. As to his AI, Ghirahim is just stupid. Nothing more, nothing less.

Phase I: You can hold your sword out and he'll gape at it, possibly wondering lustfully how he could simply abuse that shining blade. Who knows WHY he can hold it, since it's supposedly the Master Sword, but that's besides the point. Wave your sword to one direction and he'll follow it. Wave it to another, and he laughingly takes time to realize you moved your blade. Whack him into part 2.

Part 2: He gained a sword, holy crap we're gonna fight! Oh, wait, no. He has two attacks here: holds up his sword in an awkward fashion [srsly, do you expect me to NOT abuse your weakpoints when you show them EVERYWHERE?] to take a predictable swing which you really will take damage from if you're not paying attention [meaning, AFK] or if you swung wildly to hit his blade which scores auto retaliation; and his predictable running dash swing which, admittedly, can be quite hard to roll through but of course the shield bash rigs everything in this game into your favor. You could go the pro way and take spin attacks at his face to knock him out of this. Damage doesn't come from Ghirahim being hard, but rather from user error. [I'm saying no damage and the feel of this fight is basically easy, not that any player sucks]​

Phase II: [Copy pasta for Phase 1 except add in four spike things that, just like the predictable hold up sword and if hit retaliate, do essentially the same function and also he jumps in the air then pounces, which IIRC can be dodged via sprinting, rolling and possibly even straight walking; bottom line he's a joke with no improvement whatsoever.]

Phase III: Here Debbie decides to up his game...and this is where things can actually be challenging rather than "aww man i timed that wrongly". When fighting Ghirahim III part 1, you gotta knock him off. But he likes to block ****, so you have to time things correctly. Sometimes he likes to kick, sometimes he likes to punch, sometimes he likes to jump back. Deal with that, knock the arena back down to earth and you go to part 2 which regresses into the player erro.

Part 2: He at first has his crappy little dagger-like sword [I know it's more of a sword, but I'm insulting his weakness and ineptitude at using the thing] which is nothing more than a poke battle. Beat him into part 3, which regresses further into the player error department. .​

Part 3: He gets a buster sword (holy crap, Cloud!!). But he still doesn't use it correctly. He'll swing at you, but you can shield bash for lulz, and at this point you have to beat into the contours of his shoddily made rip off of a buster sword. Once you beat the sword to pieces, take a stab. Rinse and repeat, he's finished. Here, I would like to say that it isn't 100% user error, as he does like to teleport around every once in a while and his sword swings are rather quick (still not Nightmare quick though), but at the crux of things the damage seems to stem from ~90% user error, 10% difficulty.​

don't get me started with Demise, he's just an idiotic idea as a whole and some cheesy attempt at fanservice -- fan fiction makes better villains than Nintendo post Wii >_<
Little snippet: Ghirahim holding his sword up for his retaliation attack isn't what I'd call a swordfight either. Swords are involved and there is definitely a fight, but it's not much of a swordfight. He's a poser and IMO is a worse character than Dark Link -- at least with DL he isn't some kinda would-be important character to the plot [a la Zant], he's nothing but an obstacle in your way. Ghirahim, like so many SS fans would NOT brand him, is truly nothing but an obstacle in Link's way, but the problem with him is that he appears to be so important when he really is nothing but a speck in the sea of villains. He's engulfed by so many cooler concepts like Dark Link, Ganondorf, Vaati and so on who actually have substance.

Wanting Dark Link to be in Skyward Sword has two major problems:

1. Dark Link is overrated.
2. Skyward Sword broke away from series cliches.

Skyward Sword as a whole is overrated, this is irrelevant, making the point moot.
This is irrelevant as well; we have the green tunic in this game so what?

 

[athenian200]

Storywise, I've always felt that Dark Link would fit better in Twilight Princess, as a miniboss in the Temple of Time. But in terms of controls and the type of battle we could have had, I really think it would have been interesting to fight a Dark Link that could match Link's swordplay in this game, though I think he would have needed to be an optional boss given that he would be more difficult than Ghirahim in some ways. There was plenty of room for additional sidequests in Skyward Sword, though.

I feel that lately, Nintendo really hasn't put a lot of thought into the sidequests in console Zelda games, although SS was definitely a major improvement over TP in that department. PH and ST were very good about providing plenty of sidequests and things to do, on the other hand. I think it has to do with them putting most of the development resources into the main quest and graphics in later games.

 

[feraldonkey]

I don't usually say this but, meh. I never think of Dark Link/Shadow Link as a character or villain in its own, but a lot of people seem to like him and I never understand the reasoning behind his popularity. It was one of the most memorable fights on Ocarina of Time for me.
Nintendo didn't miss a chance, there's still plenty of Zelda left to milk so all the fans can see Vaati and Dark Link one day.. Which I'm sure will happen..

 

[NekoTamer]

When the mogmas told me about a person in black that looked like me, I was hoping it was Shadow Link. I also thought he would be created after the imprisoned's fumes gave Link a hallucinatory headache during my first time in the sealed grounds. What a let down.

 

[Jeeen]

I agree.. i would of liked to see shadow link.. :'(