Ripping Off Hyrule

[TVTMaster]

No, seriously. What is the deal with this game? I mean, I appreciate its ability to fix PH's flaws and become something worth playing, but the story elements have me totally baffled.

For the first thing, let's consider our wonderful villain. What we have is somebody who long ago was sealed away after the kingdom of Hyrule stopped his reign of evil. Now, however, he's using the advisor to the Royal Family as a puppet to conquer Hyrule. After his plans has been frustrated, the advisor is revealed to be a puppet of a demon king who resembles a large blue pig. He takes the unconscious body of Princess Zelda and uses it as a puppet, which attacks Link. After his defeat, Zelda is saved, and peace returns to Hyrule.
Sound familiar?

Next, we have the game's Macguffins. These are golden triangles that grant the power to repel evil, and they must be brought together to save the world. We also have six mystic people, along with Princess Zelda, who have the power to seal away great evil. At the end of the game, these people, save Zelda, disappear as spirits, waiting to be reincarnated.

Isn't this all sounding a bit familiar? Well, yes, it does. This isn't exactly a coincidence: Nintendo has decided that in order to satisfy their hardcore fans, they'll replace everything from Hyrule with a bunch of people who are functionally identical to the old stuff, down to even superficial appearances, but give them different names. Because as we all know, the reason we're tired of Ganondorf is because of his detailed backstory, strong motivation, incredible history with Hyrule. But of course, we all just love having giant blue pigs who run around kidnapping Zelda and calling themselves the Demon King! No, we'll never get tired of that!

...
In case you didn't notice, I was being sarcastic there.

Seriously, who really cares about having the exact same plot patterns and macguffins every game? Nobody likes having repetitive scenarios in and of themselves- it's their connection to Hyrule's storied lore that makes Hyrule and its setting so compelling. So, then, WHY THE **** ARE THEY GETTING RID OF THAT, AND KEEPING THE EXACT SAME LAME PLOT POINTS? IT'S JUST STUPID!

AAAAAAAAAAAARGH

 

[Megamannt125]

Malladus is a lion not a pig. Also, it might not even be what he originally looked like, it's not his body.

 

[TVTMaster]

a) Lions don't have horns (granted, neither do pigs), and even if he is supposed to be a lion, he still looks like a combination LoZ Ganon/TP Ganon.
b) Even if it's not his original incarnation, that fact that that's what the developers showed him as means a lot.
c) There's still a crazy number of shallow similarities besides the bad guy's species.

Anyway, Spirit Tracks' weird shallow parallels of Ganon, the Triforce, and the Sages bugs me. Maybe I should calm down, but it's getting harder.

 

[TVTMaster]

Not sure what that's supposed to mean-- are you talking about the constant repetition of "princess kidnapped, go save from bowser or some other weirdo" thing? Mario has never exactly had a story or world anybody cares about- nobody timeline theorizes on whether Galaxy came before SMB64. If they were to kill off Bowser and introduce somebody called "Giant Koopa" who kidnaps Peach, and if they replaced mushrooms with beans or something equally ludicrous, and set it in Sarasaland instead of the Mushroom Kingdom, nobody would really care except Bowser fanboys. Zelda is held to a higher standard of storytelling, though. Mario games are so full of variety and craziness and changing settings that nobody ever worries about him "getting old" (except BitF, obviously). But Zelda has never been about triangles and giant pigs- it's about Hyrule and Link, and compelling settings that people want to explore. Spirit Tracks' Hyrule doesn't even name anything, instead actually just calling every place "the fire level", "the ice level", "the sand level", etc. Spirit Tracks has forgotten what makes Zelda great- diverse and interesting worlds full of things to explore- and instead gone for creating some entirely new experience that cuts out the heart of the game.

 

[Odin]

the onli one i can think of is that it's a mix of boar, lion and gazelle that's about it for Malladus.

 

[Cameron102030]

I agree with Odin. Although Maddulas might just be a blue pig with horns growing out of his head.

 

[TVTMaster]

If you want a story go see a film or read a book.

message too short.

Dear God, this argument has been around since the first time someone pointed out a plothole in Final Fantasy. Games are a competent storytelling medium, and when a series famed for its world-building and story decides to drop those elements, it's upsetting. The little trolls who think they're so clever when they claim video games shouldn't have stories have never been clever, never been helpful, and have never paid attention to 30+ years of the evolution of gaming.

 

[Link 2 the past]

Well personally I've never thought the storyline to Zelda has been very strong. But it doesn't bother me because it's a game not a film. I don't know if games shouldn't have stories. But gameplay always comes first and that’s the way it has to be. RPGs, are the gold standard for the infinite possibilities of storytelling, normally don’t take the massive leaps that a bookl or a film might because they know their target audience doesn’t really care about the story.

 

[TVTMaster]

Well, yes, the story threads of each particular game's plot typically aren't very deep, as games do have to facilitate a steady rhythm of gameplay. However, many games' stories aren't presented simply through what you do in the gameplay, but rather through NPCs, areas, and game backstories. For example, have the Sheikah ever played any kind of significant role as a race in a Zelda game's main story? No, but yet we've been able to learn so much about them through their relics, art, and lore that is largely irrelevant to what you do in each game. World-building, as it's called, is when a game tells a vast history by immersing you in the setting. There's so much history and nuance in the settings of Zelda games that, honestly, aren't necessary for the gameplay. However, it's this sense of detailed immersion in a world that gives games like Ocarina of Time, Twilight Princess, A Link to the Past, and Wind Waker their sense of exploration- when exploring brings you to new places with new secrets, you're exploring, primarily, a world, not simply a level in a video game.

So when Spirit Tracks makes you go from one place to the other, exploring nothing but bland chambers filled with puzzles, while the game's story and villain show up trying to convince us that this is a Zelda game with superficial details, and the rest of the world is a bland excuse to bring you to dungeons, what's lost is the sense of exploration that mere gameplay can't replace. Spirit Tracks is so evidently just a game, that trying to give us these pointless little parallels in place of a rich and fleshed-out world is like an insult.

 

[blackice_cc]

I definitely get what you're saying here. ST definitely does have a pretty cliche-ish storyline, and if you pay attention there are tons of similarities between it and other Zeldas. However, although the core story was pretty much just a rehashed OoT without all of the side things, it was presented in a significantly new way, which enabled me to enjoy it a bit.

I'm hoping that ZW2 will give us plenty of new mysteries, shrouded backstories, etc, seeing as the console games seem to have more of that than the handheld ones. As such, I didn't mind ST not having much in that respect.

 

[Sparky]

a) Lions don't have horns (granted, neither do pigs), and even if he is supposed to be a lion, he still looks like a combination LoZ Ganon/TP Ganon.

You seem to be forgetting that Cole does have horns.
So it's only because of the executive meddling of the player that his form had horns, as you denied him using the princess.

 

[NorthApple]

You seem to be forgetting that Cole does have horns.
So it's only because of the executive meddling of the player that his form had horns, as you denied him using the princess.

Indeed. Sure, the final boss DESIGN is very reminiscent of Ganon, the actual boss himself would not normally have looked like that, it's only because he possessed Cole in a last-ditched attempt to destroy the world. Also the force gems aren't all yellow- the ones you need to reactivate in order to save the world are various colours, and are barely triforce like in their purpose.

Anyway, I do kind of see what you're saying here, but I actually thought the overworld was okay this time- it had a creative way to move around, various enemies, and had interesting pathways and environments to explore, not on foot, but by train. In comparison to PH, that's a pretty big improvement. I'm still trying to understand what you mean though... how can a game be "ripping off" something from within it's own series Using the same basic elements but in differentt situations, time periods and places isn't really "ripping off" to me. And I don't understand what you want... a game that contains all the elements of the older games' backstory and lore, without it being a rehash? Or a game that has NOTHING to do with anything from the older games so it isn't ripping any of them off. What.
Anyway, despite it supposedly "ripping off Hyrule", which I can see what you mean, it didn't stop me from enjoying Spirit Tracks, which it what counts most.

 

[Link 2 the past]

Well, yes, the story threads of each particular game's plot typically aren't very deep, as games do have to facilitate a steady rhythm of gameplay. However, many games' stories aren't presented simply through what you do in the gameplay, but rather through NPCs, areas, and game backstories. For example, have the Sheikah ever played any kind of significant role as a race in a Zelda game's main story? No, but yet we've been able to learn so much about them through their relics, art, and lore that is largely irrelevant to what you do in each game. World-building, as it's called, is when a game tells a vast history by immersing you in the setting. There's so much history and nuance in the settings of Zelda games that, honestly, aren't necessary for the gameplay. However, it's this sense of detailed immersion in a world that gives games like Ocarina of Time, Twilight Princess, A Link to the Past, and Wind Waker their sense of exploration- when exploring brings you to new places with new secrets, you're exploring, primarily, a world, not simply a level in a video game.

So when Spirit Tracks makes you go from one place to the other, exploring nothing but bland chambers filled with puzzles, while the game's story and villain show up trying to convince us that this is a Zelda game with superficial details, and the rest of the world is a bland excuse to bring you to dungeons, what's lost is the sense of exploration that mere gameplay can't replace. Spirit Tracks is so evidently just a game, that trying to give us these pointless little parallels in place of a rich and fleshed-out world is like an insult.

Ah I think I understand what your saying now. At first I thought you were saying that because of the plot "this game sucks". But I think I can see you what you mean is "this game is good but..." Well that makes a bit more sense.

But if you really think about it. The plot to Zelda games never make much senseif you look at as just a story. Take the dungeon for example, why are they there? who built them? why have so many locked doors but them leave the keys in chest within the dungeon? Why do some door conviently open when all the enimies have been killed? From a story perspective it makes no sense. But from a game perspective it makes perfect sense. 90% of the time the story to a game it written around the gameplay.

To be honest I've often found the cut sense a little tedious, I'd rarther just play the game, maybe I'd enjoy them more if they had voice actors and I didn't have to read so much. The only enjoyable part is the ending, but that's more just the satisfying fact you've finshed the game and sometimes the music is good. TP is the only the only one that I've felt had a really good story, but even there it's not something that I felt was really important, when I think of TP I don't immediately think of it's story.

I guess that's just me. ST has a pretty bland plot sure, but personally I couldn't care less.

 

[TVTMaster]

Ah I think I understand what your saying now. At first I thought you were saying that because of the plot "this game sucks". But I think I can see you what you mean is "this game is good but..." Well that makes a bit more sense.

But if you really think about it. The plot to Zelda games never make much senseif you look at as just a story. Take the dungeon for example, why are they there? who built them? why have so many locked doors but them leave the keys in chest within the dungeon? Why do some door conviently open when all the enimies have been killed? From a story perspective it makes no sense. But from a game perspective it makes perfect sense. 90% of the time the story to a game it written around the gameplay.

To be honest I've often found the cut sense a little tedious, I'd rarther just play the game, maybe I'd enjoy them more if they had voice actors and I didn't have to read so much. The only enjoyable part is the ending, but that's more just the satisfying fact you've finshed the game and sometimes the music is good. TP is the only the only one that I've felt had a really good story, but even there it's not something that I felt was really important, when I think of TP I don't immediately think of it's story.

I guess that's just me. ST has a pretty bland plot sure, but personally I couldn't care less.

Exactly- the actual story progression, specifically, is usually totally unimportant to the quality of the game. However, when you think Twilight Princess, again, obviously you don't think of what happened during the game, what you think about is what you experienced during the game- that means dungeon crawling, and fighting enemies, and searching the overworld. So when they give you bland dungeons (obstacle courses between you and force gem), bland combat (hit from behind or with item X), and a bland setting (that you can't even explore, thanks to the train), and then they try to tide you over with "Oh, come on, you can't hate our story, it's so much like our other ones!" it's insulting, because to be honest, everything that happened it Spirit Tracks could have happened word for word in any other game, and nobody would notice. There's just nothing to care about in ST- just a featureless plain with some train tracks plus "ice level forest level fire level water level sand level magic level".

And I don't understand what you want... a game that contains all the elements of the older games' backstory and lore, without it being a rehash?

Not necessarily, just a game with AT LEAST ONE. Spirit Tracks just gave us this entirely new place, that supposedly is supposed to hold the rest of Toon Link's adventures, and they give us essentially nothing to work with. The main villain is totally defeated at the end, the Lokomo race disappears, and now we've got a field plus the standard elemental level pack. ST's world could have been so much more, but they ripped off the superficial elements without actually giving us either anything worth caring about or any of the actual story of Hyrule.

 

[NorthApple]

Not necessarily, just a game with AT LEAST ONE. Spirit Tracks just gave us this entirely new place, that supposedly is supposed to hold the rest of Toon Link's adventures, and they give us essentially nothing to work with. The main villain is totally defeated at the end, the Lokomo race disappears, and now we've got a field plus the standard elemental level pack. ST's world could have been so much more, but they ripped off the superficial elements without actually giving us either anything worth caring about or any of the actual story of Hyrule.

Ahhh. Now I see what you mean. And... you're right. I fully agree with you now. Sure, every new game world's got to start somewhere... but it had no connections Hyrule's lore in the first place... and then it severed all of it's own backstory and ties at the end (killing the main baddie, the lokomo disappearing etc. as you said). And that annoyed me too (it's worst in the european version), the "Snow Land", "Fire Land" and "Forest Land" thing. Whatever happened to Snowpeak, or Death Mountain, or even the Lost Woods for crying out loud. The village you start off in is called "Outset Village", so why not name other places after other landmarks from other games... or even just give them an actual name.

Maybe Nintendo listened a bit too much to their gamers here, people cried out for change, for them to stop using the same elements over and over, but they took that to the extreme here- that's what you were saying, I get you now. I guess we can only hope that ST is a "bridge game" of sorts, between the Wind Waker era and the next big one, before they start creating some actual lore and start fleshing out "New Hyrule", to make us care again *sigh* Still, I enjoyed it all the same xDDD (*is a sucker*)