But why does it bother you? It is a reflection of a different group's beliefs that has absolutely no bearing on your own beliefs. And it is not a major theme of the game. Just one section to add variety. What would you consider an acceptable amount of religious allusions in a video game?
Returning to Religious References?
- Thread starter Cyg
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Cyg
One-Winged Skyward Angel
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I never said it bothered me. I posted this to point out that Nintendo is becoming quite comfortable with religious references, since it would be fairly hard to remove a boss based on shiva without affecting the game, compared to the past where they removed many references when they remade games. Personally, I'm ok with these references. Not offended or anything...
Cyg
One-Winged Skyward Angel
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Oops ^-^ Maybe you should have put @Moonlight, or maybe quoted him?
To be clear, I don't think any of the 'religious' statues or designs are actually allusions to existing faiths. It seems far more likely to me that the games' artistic designers simply used existing works as inspirationfor the look of statues, buildings, and motifs found throughout the series. It may seem like a slim difference in definition to some, but it's actually a huuuge divide.
It just makes logical sense for it to simply be inspiration. Think about it: You're trying to make a fantasy game in an entirely fictional world, full of magic and ancient legends, and you want to instill a sense of history to those lands. How do you do that effectively? Quite simply, you look around the real world and pick successful (meaning well known) examples to imitate in representation of the legends within your game.
For example, the symbol on Link's sheild in Zelda 1 wasn't really intended to be religious; it was meant to imply that Link was something akin to a knight in a medeval setting by association. Religion was a big deal back then, and it wasn't uncommon to see crosses on armor and weapons (they used it almost like a rabbit's foot). Thus, we draw the intentional line from the knight, stereotypically adorned in religious icons, to Link's shield with a cross; ergo we understand him to be a something like a knight in a medeval world. Much like how the crosses on the graves signified that those little grey blobs were in fact tombstones. The Gerudo seem faintly muslim because it creates an easy sense of a middle eastern culture, not because they actually are muslim. If the intention was to make Bhuddist, or Muslim, or Catholic tribes within Hyrule, why not just go out and call them as such? It'd be a lot easier than designing brand new statues and dungeons (etc.) that illustrate the mythos unique to the game world, but resemble existing styles. That's a buttload of work, and as such, it must be deliberate. They don't want Hyrule to be a part of our world.
Bhudda, Christ, Shiva, Vishnu, Allah, the Great Speghetti monster, none of these characters will show up in the game, be alluded to, nor will they even be hinted at, no matter how much Nintendo has borrows their styles (except perhaps as a tongue in cheek joke). Nor is the triforce an implication of the trinity. If you want, you can forcefully infer the triforce to be a symbol of the trinity, or the perfect balance of your favourite condiments on a hamburger (Ketchup, mustard, and relish. None of that sourkraut goop, you heathens). The integral distinction is that it's not remotely intended that way; you have to choose to make it mean that to you, and I guess that's the crux of my post: Zelda isn't a religious game by design, you have to choose to infer it that way. For most of you that's a given, and in this I may seem a little heavy handed; but I fear that sometimes in their zeal, the religious tend to claim works as linked their own faith. It's already happened recently to some degree with my beloved the Lord of the Rings, and I would rather not see that happen with Zelda as well.
It just makes logical sense for it to simply be inspiration. Think about it: You're trying to make a fantasy game in an entirely fictional world, full of magic and ancient legends, and you want to instill a sense of history to those lands. How do you do that effectively? Quite simply, you look around the real world and pick successful (meaning well known) examples to imitate in representation of the legends within your game.
For example, the symbol on Link's sheild in Zelda 1 wasn't really intended to be religious; it was meant to imply that Link was something akin to a knight in a medeval setting by association. Religion was a big deal back then, and it wasn't uncommon to see crosses on armor and weapons (they used it almost like a rabbit's foot). Thus, we draw the intentional line from the knight, stereotypically adorned in religious icons, to Link's shield with a cross; ergo we understand him to be a something like a knight in a medeval world. Much like how the crosses on the graves signified that those little grey blobs were in fact tombstones. The Gerudo seem faintly muslim because it creates an easy sense of a middle eastern culture, not because they actually are muslim. If the intention was to make Bhuddist, or Muslim, or Catholic tribes within Hyrule, why not just go out and call them as such? It'd be a lot easier than designing brand new statues and dungeons (etc.) that illustrate the mythos unique to the game world, but resemble existing styles. That's a buttload of work, and as such, it must be deliberate. They don't want Hyrule to be a part of our world.
Bhudda, Christ, Shiva, Vishnu, Allah, the Great Speghetti monster, none of these characters will show up in the game, be alluded to, nor will they even be hinted at, no matter how much Nintendo has borrows their styles (except perhaps as a tongue in cheek joke). Nor is the triforce an implication of the trinity. If you want, you can forcefully infer the triforce to be a symbol of the trinity, or the perfect balance of your favourite condiments on a hamburger (Ketchup, mustard, and relish. None of that sourkraut goop, you heathens). The integral distinction is that it's not remotely intended that way; you have to choose to make it mean that to you, and I guess that's the crux of my post: Zelda isn't a religious game by design, you have to choose to infer it that way. For most of you that's a given, and in this I may seem a little heavy handed; but I fear that sometimes in their zeal, the religious tend to claim works as linked their own faith. It's already happened recently to some degree with my beloved the Lord of the Rings, and I would rather not see that happen with Zelda as well.
I agree with a lot of what you said, but this post was designed specifically to ask what religious connections there might be in Skyward Sword. No, we aren't saying they're actually intended for "holy" comparisons, but actually bringing to light the blended mix of customs shown in the game. Again, not actual references to our religiosity.
As for the quote above, this thread brought to mind that which I thought of some time ago. I am sorry if it seemed that I forcefully inferred the Triforce was in direct relation to the Holy Trinity, but that is not at all the case. I'm afraid the same can be said for your assumptuous accusations, to be candid, because you state us to be implicating this game pertains to our respective religions, when that is not the case at all.
As for the quote above, this thread brought to mind that which I thought of some time ago. I am sorry if it seemed that I forcefully inferred the Triforce was in direct relation to the Holy Trinity, but that is not at all the case. I'm afraid the same can be said for your assumptuous accusations, to be candid, because you state us to be implicating this game pertains to our respective religions, when that is not the case at all.
Cyg
One-Winged Skyward Angel
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Zelda games don't really mean to copy world cultures, merely using them as inspiration to create its own distinct Hylian cultures...
Assumptious accusations? My word, that seems a little inflamatory, and even hostile (to be candid); but perhaps that was not your intention?
I don't believe I've been assumptious, or accustational, and it certainly wasn't my intention. Accusation at least would somewhat require that I have singled someone out, and I'm fairly certain that I simply gave my perspective of the trinity interpretation without so much as thinking of a name as I wrote. I don't believe I even claimed your triforce to trinity interpretation was wrong; I only attempted to clarify the distinction betweem intention, and interpretation, as to leave no doubt.
Hmm, implication and inferrence are tricky little devils indeed, aren't they? I have expressed my thoughts, and even concerns, in this matter, as logically and rationally as my meagre three pound lump of grey matter has allowed me, much as you have; but I believed my glass house within this thread had no rock shaped holes in its walls (I have tried to be very careful with my stones). After the "assumptious accusations" remark, are you entirely certain the same of yourself?
But again, I hear the giggle of the imps of implication and inferrence. They sound like those little goblins in Wind Waker.
My intention was not to refute that statues (and the like) resembling Bhudda, or Christ, or The Speghetti Monster are inspired by their real world dopplegangers, but rather to mind the gap between inspired, and allusionary references. They may seem like subtle differences as we flit lightly from sentence to sentence; but there is a real, potentially darning distinction between them.
If it seemed heavy handed (as I said earlier), perhaps it would help if you consider it a pre-emptive counter point to those that would claim The Legend of Zelda a religious work in the glory of their own faith. They are out there, though currently the vastness of their bulk is seemingly still preoccupied with Middle earth for now. Should they decend upon Hyrule, I would prefer that at least the terminology used in such future discussions and assertations be handled appropriately, given minimally little wiggle room by loose precedent of conversations past.
Dear lord who brought this up? We don't want SS to suffer the same fate as OoT did. I find it annoying that people hate Religious References in a game. Grow up, there inspired by other cultures I think if I were one of the cultures that were referred in SS I would be proud because the culture I'm in is inspiring others.
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