REAL TIMELINE

[Moblinking5000]

Huh. I need to go back and look that up in more detail, apparently. I thought it was that he would be eternally reincarnated, like Hylia and Link.

He said an ''incarnation of his hatred'' would follow Link and Zelda to be more specific, but since it's not really possible for hatred to literally reincarnate, it's probably figurative.

And, yeah. This entire timeline discussion has me all turned around as I try to work it out. I'd rather try to straighten out the time travel in the Marvel comics.

What parts, specifically, are you having trouble with?

 

[Kerest]

He said an ''incarnation of his hatred'' would follow Link and Zelda to be more specific, but since it's not really possible for hatred to literally reincarnate, it's probably figurative.

It's incredibly possible for hatred to reincarnate, as long as hatred incarnates in the first place. It goes into the old idea of gods, where they were less divine beings and more living incarnations of primal forces or forces of society. A similar concept exists today with the Grim Reaper.

All it requires for it to be Demise reincarnating is for Demise to be the incarnation of hatred at the time he laid the curse.

What parts, specifically, are you having trouble with?

I got confused at how LoZ is supposed to be before OoT. Admittedly, I can understand OoT being thought as a prequel to ALttP; that was actually a theory for some time when OoT was released and people still held onto the idea the LoZ Links were all the same Link (which, to be fair, up until that point they had been). This was before the idea of LoZ having divergent timelines was accepted. It's still obviously not correct, but I can understand that conclusion.

 

[Moblinking5000]

It's incredibly possible for hatred to reincarnate, as long as hatred incarnates in the first place. It goes into the old idea of gods, where they were less divine beings and more living incarnations of primal forces or forces of society. A similar concept exists today with the Grim Reaper.

All it requires for it to be Demise reincarnating is for Demise to be the incarnation of hatred at the time he laid the curse.

I'm not really familar with Gods in other cultures so, admittedly I can't really respond to this. But even if say Ganondorf was a literal reincarnation of Demise, that doesn't mean that he is Demise, as he's a person with his own memories. It's like saying that all the Links for example are the same guy.

I got confused at how LoZ is supposed to be before OoT.

It's...not, though. ALttP is a prequel to LoZ, and LoZ take place long after it and its sequels in the timeline, as well as OoT since that, in turn, is a prequel to ALttP.

that was actually a theory for some time

Not really a theory; it was confirmed in a few interviews around OoT's release.

people still held onto the idea the LoZ Links were all the same Link (which, to be fair, up until that point they had been)

No; LoZ/AoL Link had to have the existence of the ToC explained to him, and earlier in ALttP[which even at the time, was a prequel to LoZ as the box says), he obtains the full Triforce. And LoZ is a traveller wheras ALttP Link lived with his uncle. There was always multiple Links even if people refused to accept that.

 

[Kerest]

I'm not really familar with Gods in other cultures so, admittedly I can't really respond to this. But even if say Ganondorf was a literal reincarnation of Demise, that doesn't mean that he is Demise, as he's a person with his own memories. It's like saying that all the Links for example are the same guy.

That's how reincarnation works. It is the same person, sometimes paying for mistakes in the past, but they still have new memories and possibly a different personality. So, Ganondorf would be Demise, yet also his own person.

It's...not, though. ALttP is a prequel to LoZ, and LoZ take place long after it and its sequels in the timeline, as well as OoT since that, in turn, is a prequel to ALttP.

Exactly. I'm confused as to how that placement would work.

Not really a theory; it was confirmed in a few interviews around OoT's release.

I'm placing it as "theory" because, given what they've said in interviews, not even the developers know the full timeline. They're literally making this up as they go along.

No; LoZ/AoL Link had to have the existence of the ToC explained to him, and earlier in ALttP[which even at the time, was a prequel to LoZ as the box says), he obtains the full Triforce. And LoZ is a traveller wheras ALttP Link lived with uncle. There was always multiple Links even if people refused to accept that.

That came much more recently in timeline structure. For a very long time, it was canon that the ALttP Link was the same Link as LoZ. The official timeline for the first four games, even long after OoT was released, was ALttP>LA>LoZ>AoL with all of them happening in the lifetime of a single Link. The explanation for needing each Triforce explained to him amounted to "Link is a bit of an idiot," which explains his in-cartoon depictions of the time.

 

[Moblinking5000]

That's how reincarnation works. It is the same person, sometimes paying for mistakes in the past, but they still have new memories and possibly a different personality. So, Ganondorf would be Demise, yet also his own person.

I would say same spirit, not same person, but that's semantical.

Also, Demise is gone, so Ganon can't be a literal reincarnation,anyway.

Exactly. I'm confused as to how that placement would work.

It's not even the placement, though, as explained. So...problem solved?

I'm placing it as "theory" because, given what they've said in interviews, not even the developers know the full timeline. They're literally making this up as they go along

I choose to listen to canon, but you do you, I guess.

That came much more recently in timeline structure.For a very long time, it was canon that the ALttP Link was the same Link as LoZ. The official timeline for the first four games, even long after OoT was released, was ALttP>LA>LoZ>AoL with all of them happening in the lifetime of a single Link. The explanation for needing each Triforce explained to him amounted to "Link is a bit of an idiot," which explains his in-cartoon depictions of the time.

What...?

The back of the box said that ALttP features the predecessors of the Link and Zelda from the original game.

OoT Link has a completely different backstory from both ALttP/LA Link and LoZ/AoL Link.

The cartoon isn't even canon.

Where did you get this from?

 

[Spiritual Mask Salesman]

Here is my take on the hate curse.

https://zeldasanctuary.com/how-demise-cursed-the-hylians/#more-7148

 

[Kerest]

I would say same spirit, not same person, but that's semantical.

Also, Demise is gone, so Ganon can't be a literal reincarnation,anyway.

Eh. Demise being gone is a separate issue from if Ganon is Demise, but that's a headache argument that amounts to nothing as far as what Ganon can do. Let's agree this one is just too much of a headache to argue?

It's not even the placement, though, as explained. So...problem solved?

Hey, you asked where I was confused about the argument in the thread :p

I choose to listen to canon, but you do you, I guess.

I think we got our wires crossed at some point on this one.

When you say "prequel," do you mean in the "continuation of the same story about the characters in ALttP" sense or in the "placed earlier on the timeline" sense? The first is the common understanding, the second is one I've never seen before.

What...?

The back of the box said that ALttP features the predecessors of the Link and Zelda from the original game.

OoT Link has a completely different backstory from both ALttP/LA Link and LoZ/AoL Link.

The cartoon isn't even canon.

Where did you get this from?

I didn't say the cartoon was canon. I said it was held for awhile that the Link from ALttP was the same as LoZ and OoT. Keep in mind this is after Miyamoto tried to argue that ALttP was a sequel to AoL. Then there was the argument the Zelda in AoL was the same as LoZ. The early attempts at sorting out a Zelda timeline were a little bonkers, to put it politely, and it took a few tries for the developers to figure out that they needed to pay more attention to what they wrote down in the manuals and on the boxes as far as story is concerned.

That was a fun period to live through as a Zelda fan.

 

[Moblinking5000]

When you say "prequel," do you mean in the "continuation of the same story about the characters in ALttP" sense or in the "placed earlier on the timeline" sense? The first is the common understanding, the second is one I've never seen before.

Both, sort of.

OoT expands on certain elements of the ALttP backstory; ALttP was the first game to be released to mention that Ganon was originally a man, and was also the first to introduce the name ''Ganondorf'' in the manual, and the Swamp Palace maiden also uses the name in game. ALttP's bs also said that Ganondorf got the Triforce in the SR and became a demonic king of evil. This happens in OoT; he obtains the Triforce(of Power; it's still worded as him getting the ''Triforce'' though, so it can be used to refer to both the full TF or just one of the three pieces of it), and becomes the King of Evil(NoA)/Great Demon King(NoJ). The creation story is also expanded upon in OoT.

I didn't say the cartoon was canon. I said it was held for awhile that the Link from ALttP was the same as LoZ and OoT. Keep in mind this is after Miyamoto tried to argue that ALttP was a sequel to AoL. Then there was the argument the Zelda in AoL was the same as LoZ. The early attempts at sorting out a Zelda timeline were a little bonkers, to put it politely, and it took a few tries for the developers to figure out that they needed to pay more attention to what they wrote down in the manuals and on the boxes as far as story is concerned.

Miyamoto only wrote the story for LoZ and maybe a bit of OoT, and Dan Owsen said that he confessed to not knowing the timeline when he asked him, so the ''Miyamoto Order'' was always rightfully acknowledged as BS by most fans.

Are you thinking of the old Zelda.com timeline?

If so, that was written by NoA; NoJ made the connections far more clearer, and they never said that it was all the same Link. NoA material shouldn't be considered canon if it contradicts Japanese material.

 

[Kerest]

Both, sort of.

OoT expands on certain elements of the ALttP backstory; ALttP was the first game to be released to mention that Ganon was originally a man, and was also the first to introduce the name ''Ganondorf'' in the manual, and the Swamp Palace maiden also uses the name in game. ALttP's bs also said that Ganondorf got the Triforce in the SR and became a demon. This happens in OoT; he obtains the Triforce(of Power; it's still worded as him getting the ''Triforce'' though, so it can be used to refer to both the full TF or just one of the three pieces of it), and becomes the Great Demon King(as mentioned in the JP version of OoT). The creation story is also expanded upon in OoT.

That doesn't quite work, since Ganon in ALttP is clearly depicted as having the full Triforce, not just one part of it; you can see it in the ending animation. After Link defeats Ganon, Link ends up with the full Triforce (this ends up a plot point for ALBW). Which is one of the things that created an early backlash against OoT being prior to ALttP in the timeline; the plotlines of the two games contradict each other on just how much of the Triforce Ganon had. This is why the Downfall timeline exists; to fix this plothole between ALttP and OoT.

Miyamoto only wrote the story for LoZ and maybe a bit of OoT, and Dan Owsen said that he confessed to not knowing the timeline when he asked him, so the ''Miyamoto Order'' was always rightfully acknowledged as BS by most fans.

Are you thinking of the old Zelda.com timeline?

If so, that was written by NoA; NoJ made the connections far more clearer, and they never said that it was all the same Link. NoA material shouldn't be considered canon if it contradicts Japanese material.

Keep in mind much of this was going on the late 1990s. For quite some time, NoA was the only source of canon information for quite a few people because we didn't have access to the information from NoJ as readily.

 

[Moblinking5000]

That doesn't quite work, since Ganon in ALttP is clearly depicted as having the full Triforce, not just one part of it.

Yes, which is where the DT explanation comes into play.

In ALttP's manual, it didn't technically say that Ganon got the full Triforce at that point, even if we know sometime prior to ALttP that happened, due to him having the full TF in ALttP itself. As explained, Rauru says that Ganon got the Triforce, but we see that he only got the ToP at that point in time. Doesn't mean he doesn't get the rest later, though, which he does in the DT ending to OoT.

This is why the Downfall timeline exists; to fix this plothole between ALttP and OoT.

I agree with you on that, as said above.

Keep in mind much of this was going on the late 1990s. For quite some time, NoA was the only source of canon information for quite a few people because we didn't have access to the information from NoJ as readily.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but earlier, you made it sound like Nintendo had always intended for all Links to be the same and didn't retcon that until later, which is false. Even if you only had access to faulty info, that doesn't mean the other, truer info didn't exist, and you seemed to be unaware of this info existing.

This conversation makes me want to start a new topic that goes indepth on the developmental history of the timeline. It could clear up alot of misconceptions that people have about the nature of the timeline.

 

[Kerest]

Yes, which is where the DT explanation comes into play.

In ALttP's manual, it didn't technically say that Ganon got the full Triforce at that point, even if we know sometime prior to ALttP that happened, due to him having the full TF in ALttP itself. As explained, Rauru says that Ganon got the Triforce, but we see that he only got the ToP at that point in time. Doesn't mean he doesn't get the rest later, though, which he does in the DT ending to OoT.

The manual presents it as though he walked into the Sacred Realm, grabbed the Triforce, and made his wish on the spot. Which, given the likely span of time between OoT and ALttP, is probably what it would have looked like with how quickly he gained all three pieces.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but earlier, you made it sound like Nintendo had always intended for all Links to be the same and didn't retcon that until later, which is false. Even if you only had access to faulty info, that doesn't mean the other, truer info didn't exist, and you seemed to be unaware of this info existing.

I was pointing out I understood how a flawed perception of the relationship between OoT and ALttP came into being, not that I agreed with it; I admitted at the very end it was obviously wrong, but still an understandable mistake given the earlier information that might have had access to.

This conversation makes me want to start a new topic that goes indepth on the developmental history of the timeline. It could clear up alot of misconceptions that people have about the nature of the timeline.

Go for it! Having a set guide for easy reference would help a lot with discussion.

 

[Moblinking5000]

The manual presents it as though he walked into the Sacred Realm, grabbed the Triforce, and made his wish on the spot. Which, given the likely span of time between OoT and ALttP, is probably what it would have looked like with how quickly he gained all three pieces.

True; the timespan between Ganon getting the ToP and full TF is negligible compared to the timespan between OoT and ALttP.

I was pointing out I understood how a flawed perception of the relationship between OoT and ALttP came into being, not that I agreed with it; I admitted at the very end it was obviously wrong, but still an understandable mistake given the earlier information that might have had access to.

Okay, I understand now.

Go for it! Having a set guide for easy reference would help a lot with discussion.

Sounds good! It will take awhile, though.

 

[Jotaro Joestar]

With my timeline I have it as
OoT, MM, TP, alot of years later, SS, EVEN MORE YEARS, BotW
Let me know what you think

 

[Moblinking5000]

With my timeline I have it as
OoT, MM, TP, alot of years later, SS, EVEN MORE YEARS, BotW
Let me know what you think

Wait, what...?

Why do you have SS after TP? It is the first game; the Kingdom of Hyrule isn't founded, and the MS is created in it, not to mention that the curse of Demise explains Ganondorf and probably other villains, too.

And where are all the other games?

 

[Mipha]

why merge them into one timeline when there's canonically confirmed to be three and for a reason? Seems pointless and like a recipe for disaster in terms of doing it accurately.