General Zelda Randomly Generated Dungeons - a Way to Aid in Non-linearity?

[Ventus]

Hello all, I am sure a few of you are familiar with the dynamic dungeons used in Four Swords, as well as the Pokemon Mystery Dungeon offshoot. What I want to discuss, though, is the capability of randomly generated three dimensional dungeons. I mean, check this out: the prospect ensures that we always have a fresh experience, that we can always complete the dungeon (remember, the dungeons will RNG based on your acquired goods - so the ability to "roll" a 1 for Hookshot puzzles will be placed at 0% if you do not have the hookshot), and that the games will be as non-linear as possible.

What are your thoughts?

 

[Maxxy]

I think this is a bad idea for a Zelda game except maybe a hidden, optional dungoen.

 

[DarkestLink]

I found these to be extremely generic and boring. No support.

 

[Cucco's Revenge]

I say RNG Dungeons would be a nice step forward for the Zelda series. Every playthrough would be different. No walkthroughs to help you. I'm all for it.

 

[Mercedes]

I think it's a good idea! I'm surprised people hate the idea. Many games do it and they do it well, and helps with replayability a lot. Games like Torchlight 2 mix up the dungeons and even over-world a little bit when you play and it goes a long way to helping you feel like you're playing another game.

Also, we then look at how much fun Roguelike games are. Stuff like the Binding of Isaac, and FTL, the former of which having sold over 2 million copies. For an un-advertised Indie game, that's damn good! And they make every playthrough extremely different by randomizing every aspect of the game; enemies, items, room lay-out, situations, etc. And if you die, right back to the start.

So, I'd like to see Nintendo at least do the randomly-generated dungeons. But, would like to see what else they could do.

 

[JuicieJ]

I think it's a good idea! I'm surprised people hate the idea. Many games do it and they do it well, and helps with replayability a lot. Games like Torchlight 2 mix up the dungeons and even over-world a little bit when you play and it goes a long way to helping you feel like you're playing another game.

Except the puzzle-solving would be hard pressed to pull together properly if dungeons were randomly generated. It's not like we'd just go through and fight some enemies. Entire rooms would have to correlate with each other to form cohesive and challenging puzzles, and we're just not at the stage where gaming technology can do that on its own. It's a horrible idea for the time being.

 

[Mercedes]

See, the problems you've just said are problems that developers have over-came. You'd be amazed how far modern technology actually is.

It'd actually work well with Zelda since usually, puzzles are quite solitary things. The puzzle, when done, does one thing. So it'd actually be rather easy to make multiple variations of a set-piece puzzle, that all end with the same thing; the Boss room door opening, or a chest with a random item inside appearing, or a door opening leading to another random puzzle, to open another door, etc. That's all that needs to be the same. The middle part, the actual puzzle, can be anything! So it's not as hard as your making out.

And it'd be great to see! I'd love Ninty to do it, and do it the best.

 

[JuicieJ]

Eh, I'd still rather have the in-depth, well-thought-out puzzles that only developers themselves can come up with.

 

[surferguy7]

No.

The reason Mystery Dungeon games are randomly generated is because the dungeons are bland by design. They're set with a basic theme, amount of items, trap sets, enemy placement, and boom a floor is complete.

The only way this could work in the Zelda series is if the dungeon was like Sky Keep where each room is it's own isolated puzzle, which would take away from a lot of central themes in dungeons.

 

[Wolf Sage]

I think this is a bad idea for a Zelda game except maybe a hidden, optional dungoen.

Basically this.

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However, if Nintendo were to introduce ONE dungeon whose puzzle elements and such revolve around a randomly generated layout, then I'd be all for. I don't think that it would necessarily have to be optional, though.

On another note, I've seen this kind of thing in other games; Dark Cloud comes to mind. In it, all of the dungeons were randomly generated at the cost of no depth whatsoever; each room was bland as ever, pratically monotonous. Then again, Dark Cloud is an RPG, so such intricacies—dungeon puzzles and such—aren't its main focus. (Keep in mind that it sold quite well, however...)

As such, if the Zelda series were to add at least ONE randomly generated dungeon, it'd really have to do it right. In other words, it'd have to find a variety of ways to keep it interesting, as well as keep its engaging puzzle elements intact. Just one dungeon, though; no need to overdo it...

 

[JuicieJ]

Basically this.

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However, if Nintendo were to introduce ONE dungeon whose puzzle elements and such revolve around a randomly generated layout, then I'd be all for. I don't think that it would necessarily have to be optional, though.

As such, if the Zelda series were to add at least ONE randomly generated dungeon, it'd really have to do it right. In other words, it'd have to find a variety of ways to keep it interesting, as well as keep its engaging puzzle elements intact. Just one dungeon, though; no need to overdo it...

There is the problem, however, of the situation turning into one of people saying "This dungeon did it, why not all the others?" If you give a mouse a cookie...

 

[Zorth]

The idea is awesome but not only do I doubt today's technology to be able to have RNG dependent dungeons, which will most likely be riddled with bugs, but I also don't like the idea from a lore perspective. Temples & Dungeons aren't really meant to change into something completely else every time you re-enter them, that shouldn't be the challenge to them, the challenge should be to actually overcome what is within them and to add replay value to this simply make it harder by making the enemies tougher. IMO it makes more sense to give a RNG factor to events like wars, raids, plagues and attacks by giant monsters; so called dynamic events. Where we can either choose to participate in or just do something else and not interfere, which will steer your adventure into a different direction each time.

 

[JuicieJ]

Hmmm... You know, if it were done in such a way where it wasn't completely random, but where the dungeons adjusted to your set of items, I think it would work. I mean, really, only minor adjustments would need to be made to the dungeons, causing less stress on the developers (and hardware), and we wouldn't have to worry about the CPU screwing things up. I'd be all for that.

 

[Justac00lguy]

I do like the idea, actually I like it a lot however I do see some of the problems, like mentioned by people in this thread alone...

I've always like the idea of dungeons outside of the main quest, of course it's not really Zelda's forte to add this kind of content outside of the main plot but I feel it would be a great addition. Now onto this idea of randomly generated dungeons, what if these dungeons where not mandatory but just in the overworld as a side quest so to say?

 

[Ventus]

Eh, I'd still rather have the in-depth, well-thought-out puzzles that only developers themselves can come up with.

We're still talking about Nintendo here, right? The only "in-depth" puzzles they've ever created were those cryptic ones, i.e the ones that made zero sense. Otherwise, they've merely put things that any five year old can accomplish. Hackers around the world have designed and redesigned a slew of puzzles that simply beat out Nintendo 2 to 1. What, don't believe me? Google this mess, yo.

For that very reason, I've come to the conclusion that not only can puzzles be generated with relative ease, but the enemy set alongside items required/obtained can be changed as well. It's a simple task that, although I personally don't know how to create, can definitely be done and its effects are seen in gaming everywhere. Skill sets in Fire Emblem Awakening's Lunatic+ mode are constantly flipped. Dungeons in Four Swords are mixed and matched. RPGs everywhere deal with RNG, including Mario Party, Diablo, and if memory serves, World of Warcraft (need citation for WoW).
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Now, guys, I'm not saying the concept need to pervade every dungeon. Of course that'd be a mess.