Skyward Sword Pointless Fanboy Rambling in Defense of Skyward Sword (tl;dr)

[Salem]

And the GAME TELLS YOU to go in a specific order. So yeah, the only reason the game is non-linear is because the programmers either A. made mistakes or B. just didn't bother making it so you absolutely can't go to a dungeon early.

Or C. They gave the hints on where to go next to help gamers that have low skills rather than to enforce an arbitrary order.

Seriously? You are aware that a suggested order doesn't mean linearity, right? Even LoZ and ALttP have suggested orders. Doesn't mean you have to follow them.

Thank you.

 

[DarkestLink]

And yet since OoT they've been playing more and more barriers to prevent people from doing things outside the linear order. It's a learning process. One they didn't master yet at OoT.

 

[Ventus]

Seriously? You are aware that a suggested order doesn't mean linearity, right? Even LoZ and ALttP have suggested orders. Doesn't mean you have to follow them.

Yes, and to prove this, use Kingdom Hearts Dream Drop Distance as an example. The story suggests this order for the first four worlds: TTown (mandatory first) > Cite de Cloches > Pranksters Paradise > The Grid

But Pranksters Paradise' combat level is like 18 or 20, while the Grid's is like 12 14 or 16 (one of the three). Sure, you can actively choose which world you want to go with, but the story still has a suggested path that "makes the most sense." OoT plays out like KHDDD does...to an extent. But yeah. SS is linear so that's somewhat on topic.

 

[Ventus]

And yet since OoT they've been playing more and more barriers to prevent people from doing things outside the linear order. It's a learning process. One they didn't master yet at OoT.

If they really wanted to master this, they would've fixed OoT3D, being a remake and all. They didn't. thts all I'mma say.

 

[Salem]

And yet since OoT they've been playing more and more barriers to prevent people from doing things outside the linear order. It's a learning process. One they didn't master yet at OoT.

I am clearly arguing that OoT was created without non-linearity in mind. What the devs did was they didn't put anything in the way to stop non-linearity a la SS, but because how the game is set up I doubt they created the game to be non linear. It just ended up that way. It's clear they wanted you to use arrows in the Fire Temple and the lens of truth for the spirit temple but you don't HAVE to.
I agree they didn't FORCE an order but that's just how it ended up. If there was an eye you had to shoot in the Fire Temple then you couldn't do it without going to the forest temple first. Do you think they didn't include an eye because they were thinking "let's make it non linear"? I doubt it, I think it just ended up that way.

Now sure, it means the game is technically non-linear, but I don't think they built it with non linearity in mind. But in SS they built it with linearity in mind, which is why you can barely do anything out of order.

This is different than KH which has a world selection screen where you can select others so this can't even be argued, they factually built it with non-linearity in mind. As far as OoT goes you can argue it either way and I'm arguing it just ended up that way proof via the arrows and lens of truth.

But It's still not good enough as proof that OoT was built from the ground up to be non-linear. I could be completely wrong and OoT intended to be linear, but, I've been reading developers interview a lot, specially the Iwata asks, they did not comment on the issues on players beating the Fire temple before the Forest Temple, all they talked about was the non-fixing of the glitches and other stuff of course.

I'm gonna be stubborn about this until I read a definite developer quote about pesky player that change the order of the temple.

 

[Mangachick14]

I agree with you 100%. :yes: I said in the other SS thread that I never thought of SS as more linear than it's predecessors, especially when compared to TP. You still have to go to this temple first, and there's only one way to get to it and one way to get through it. Not to say that it's isn't linear, because it is, but no more than other games.

 

[JuicieJ]

Xyphon, you have absolutely no proof that OoT was intended to be linear, and the fact that multiple dungeons can easily be completed out of order suggests more than anything that it WASN'T intended to be so. If you can provide me with a developer quote that says the game's option to complete certain dungeons out of the suggested order was a mistake, then and only then will I accept that argument. Otherwise, your words are moot.

 

[Salem]

Well there is proof. They want you to use arrows in the fire temple, lens of truth to get to spirit temple, and why would they only make some dungeons non linear not all of them? Like the water temple? Why can't I do everything in a different order?

Maybe for the sake of diversity, having the right item affects some dungeons but not all of them, like wither you have the arrows in Fire temple, it can save you only a few seconds, having the hoover boots gives you a little boost in the hunted waste land but it's not a required item there.

Also, I NEVER said OoT was built to be linear, I said SS was built to be linear. What I did say was OoT was not built to be non-linear. They just didn't put anything in the way of stopping it.

Now like I said it is not factual either way. No dev has said anything about it either way. This is just like, my opinion, bro.

Ah, right, sorry.

 

[Maxxy]

About the whole OoT being linear aspect, you can go from Forest to Water to Fire, and you can do Spirit to Shadow. I always do Spirit first because of the Medallion order on one of the pause screens.

 

[Random Person]

@Random Person

Zelda not known for linearity? It's one of the most linear series I've ever seen. We haven't had a non-linear title in over two decades.

The Tekken series is not known for its beat-em up sections, it's known for its one on one fighting, but the games do have beat-em up sections. In fact, the latest games have made them their story mode... and yet most don't know the series for that. A series containing something does not mean it is automatically known for it. Whatever linear part, sections or even entire games the Zelda series may have, its still known for exploration.

Even if Zelda was one of the most linear series ever, people know it for the parts that aren't linear. The exploration factor helped to make Zelda what it is known to be today. So when that was minimized as much as it was in SS, people complained.

 

[JuicieJ]

Even if Zelda was one of the most linear series ever, people know it for the parts that aren't linear. The exploration factor helped to make Zelda what it is known to be today. So when that was minimized as much as it was in SS, people complained.

Skyward Sword honestly wasn't any more linear than Twilight Princess, or any other recent Zelda, for that matter. Honestly, it's slightly less linear. Oh, it's very linear, but rather than confining you to what's practically an on-rails segment until you complete certain tasks (TP, PH, ST), it gives you a bit of wiggle room after sending you on your way to the next pre-determined segment. So I really don't see the reasoning behind "as much as it was in SS" when looking at things in context.

 

[ProtagonistJake]

Skyward Sword honestly wasn't any more linear than Twilight Princess, or any other recent Zelda, for that matter. Honestly, it's slightly less linear. Oh, it's very linear, but rather than confining you to what's practically an on-rails segment until you complete certain tasks (TP, PH, ST), it gives you a bit of wiggle room after sending you on your way to the next pre-determined segment. So I really don't see the reasoning behind "as much as it was in SS" when looking at things in context.

Problem being the only thing you can do with that wiggle room is

Open chest on rock with nothing but said chest
Dowse or find not-very-well-hidden-Goddess cube
do fetch quests on main island, which require you to fly to more small rocks
upgrade equipment on main island
3 minigames (As opposed to the at least 5 in TP)

What there is to do, doesnt manage to differentiate itself as much the other Zeldas
It repeats itself a lot, and doesnt even bother to hide the fact that it is well

Most heart pieces are gained from obtaining the Goddess cubes, then opening the chests which there is obviously no puzzle to. The only puzzle part about finding most of the Cubes is "Use the Skyward Strike from a certain angle"

Everything you can do is very shallow basically.

Unlike TP which simply has more to find in different ways in it's overworld, AND it's main hub.

It's not about how much wiggle room you have that makes it linear, its what you can do with that wiggle room that counts. In SS, you cant do much that isnt the same thing over and over. there isnt much to do, therefore, its one of, if not, THE most linear Zelda

 

[JuicieJ]

Problem being the only thing you can do with that wiggle room is

Open chest on rock with nothing but said chest

After activating it by finding the appropriate Goddess Cube.

Dowse or find not-very-well-hidden-Goddess cube

Not quite sure what you're getting at here. If you mean that many of them were in plain sight, then sure, but it's not like you could just walk up to (all but a few of) them with little to no hassle like the vast majority of treasure chests in Twilight Princess. Skyward Sword took the approach of "hide it in plain sight, make the route to it tricky to find", much like in A Link to the Past and The Minish Cap (I think you can see why I draw so many parallels among these games' overworlds). There were even quite a few that you couldn't immediately get, meaning you had to remember where they were and what kind of obstacles were set in place when going back to find them -- again, like in ALttP and TMC.

do fetch quests on main island, which require you to fly to more small rocks

Quests that each have their own story with detailed characters and have do different things while going to different places. Let's list the other Zelda games that have done that, shall we: Majora's Mask, Spirit Tracks. Oh, well look at that. The Wind Waker and Twilight Princess don't show up in that, do they?

upgrade equipment on main island

Which is only doable by collecting treasures on the surface. It also provides incentive to go back to the main hub and actually spend rupees, something that was completely absent in literally every previous Zelda game.

3 minigames (As opposed to the at least 5 in TP)

Um... what? Skyward Sword had 6 core minigames: Bamboo Island, Fun-Fun Island, Thrill Digger, Rickety Coaster, Bug Island, and Pumpkin Pull. There's a total of 9 if you include the Lightning Round -- a double-edged feature, with the boss gauntlet and Silent Realm challenges -- pumpkin-carrying, and harp-playing.

3 minigames? Try triple that, which is nearly double of TP's.

What there is to do, doesnt manage to differentiate itself as much the other Zeldas
It repeats itself a lot, and doesnt even bother to hide the fact that it is well

Right...

Most heart pieces are gained from obtaining the Goddess cubes, then opening the chests which there is obviously no puzzle to. The only puzzle part about finding most of the Cubes is "Use the Skyward Strike from a certain angle"

Except there are often paths you have to hunt down to get to them, as I already went over.

Everything you can do is very shallow basically.

If by shallow you mean the complete, exact opposite.

Unlike TP which simply has more to find in different ways in it's overworld, AND it's main hub.

Its main hub? What main hub? It's four provinces connected through lengthy hallways. It's also cute how you think there's more content in TP's overworld.

It's not about how much wiggle room you have that makes it linear, its what you can do with that wiggle room that counts. In SS, you cant do much that isnt the same thing over and over. there isnt much to do, therefore, its one of, if not, THE most linear Zelda

Ignoring the fact that this logic is insanely flawed -- more wiggle room is more wiggle room, period -- let's flip this on its head. By this logic, I could argue that The Wind Waker is the most linear Zelad game. It has a considerably smaller amount of content than both TP and SS, with a open, but very, very empty overworld that's way too big for its own good. Sure has a lot more wiggle room. Not really much you can do with it, though. At least not while sailing.

 

[r2d93]

Controls: I didn't have too much trouble with the controls, except i found myself having to pause and recalibrate the wiimote quite a few times which got annoying. The functioning of the swings never really gave me too much trouble, I just prefer the standard button layout controls. The combat in SS was based around our sword which i thought slowed down the combat significantly and made it less fun (speaking only about the sword combat)

Fi: while she was useful when I needed advice about enemies, that's it. And she had a few funny lines. Other than that I hated her. the constant interruptions were terrible to deal with and her ability to point out the obvious was unfathomable

Linearity: I don't have an issue with Linearity in terms of story progression, just in areas. And the areas of Skyward sword were dreadfully linear. Faron forest felt like I was actually walking down hallways. Everything in Skyward Sword was A to B with only one choice in path. Start at the base, run up this hill, walk through this cave, climb another hill, cross this bridge, blahblahlblah with no possible variation in route. It felt claustrophobic at times

Filler: While I don't feel it was total unnecessary filler, I still didn't enjoy these quests. I didn't enjoy dowsing for things, and I didn't enjoy the multitude of fetch quests we were sent on in the game.

The silent realms were interesting and challenging but tedious
The imprisoned sucked and I found myself going "UUUGH" everytime that stupid black blob popped up from the ground
I very much enjoyed the Eldin Stealth mission
Song of the Hero quest was completely fine
I agree they botched the revisit to Skyview

 

[Salem]

Filler

It's bad if we notice it.

First of all, everything outside of a dungeon isn't usually seen as filler aka padding. It's everything outside of a dungeon that does not add to the main plot or push the plot forward in order to make the game seem longer. The first part of SS is seen as padding because hardly any progress is made. While we do get Ghirahim and Impa, it's mainly Link doing one task the whole time... looking for Zelda. And the last section with the dragons is considered padding because of the same reason, the only difference is now he's trying to learn a song. Very little about the story is learned during these two times and one could make an argument that this is true towards the middle of the game as well.

But what's sucessful about the middle of the game is that it does a good job of distracting the padding with other antics. Collecting the goddess tears was a nice change of pace, and was done extremely well. Added this to getting new items, exploring new places, and beating new dungeon, while this section could arguably be padding, people don't notice it as much because of all the other good qualities it has. I don't think padding is a horrible thing, but just like any "flaw" when it is so obvious it overshadows the positives, then it needs to be delt with.

I don't understand, how come something be not connected to the plot, or push and NOT be a sidequest? Doesn't everything we need to do in the main quest connects to the game's plot in some way? I don't understand this point.

Conclusion

Hey, I'm glad you loved SS and I hope you continue to get joy out of the game. But what should be noted is that, atleast in my experience, most people who dislike SS don't ignore the good things. We're just noticing alot more bad than we hoped to. With other Zelda games we can say "Well, that seems bad but this makes up for it." SS doesn't give us enough to excuse it's flaws. Like the Nostalgia Critic said, nitpicking isn't so much as complaining about flaws, but complaining that we noticed it from the get go. SS has many great things about it, but they're not enough to hide its flaws which we've come to expect better from in the Legend of Zelda series.

This 1000%. I wish everyone understands that bringing up flaws of a video game, discussing it and suggesting solutions doesn't mean we are "haters".