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PlayStation "Neo", Xbox "Scorpio", Nintendo NX: mid-generational leaps

CrimsonCavalier

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There are two issues here.

I. PlayStation and Xbox both to "upgrade" current consoles: Nintendo NX in trouble before it launches?
So clearly, the NX was supposed to bring Nintendo into modernity. It was Nintendo's answer to the PS4. Except, oops, now PlayStation is upping the ante. The NX is supposed to be as powerful—or slightly more powerful—than the PS4, except now the PS Neo is going to be more powerful than that, so there goes that idea.

And now, there is rumor that the Xbox is also going to get an upgrade. The Scorpio is supposed to be the Xbox One.2, and that could even bring the Xbox back into relevance.

The NX was supposed to be Nintendo's answer to the PS4, and even the XBO, but if both Sony and MS are putting forth an answer to the NX, it's quite possible the NX is going to be underpowered, from the start, and Nintendo is going to be in the exact same position it was with the Wii U.

II. Mid-generational Leaps are bad for the gamer & and a gamble for the companies
The idea behind the Neo (and presumably, the Scorpio) is that for those that can afford it, you'll be able to play the same exact PS4 titles normal PS4s can play, just in 4k. But also probably at a higher frame-rate. So eventually, the problem is that the 3DS-New 3DS business is going to happen. At first you'll be able to play the games just fine, but eventually, they're going to make a game that won't run on the PS4 Oldo (PS4 Classic, as they'll call it).

It happened with the 3DS.

Of course, this is bad for the consumer. Not only did you just spend $350 only a few years ago, but now they want you to spend another $350? Just so you can play the upgraded version of a game that you should have already been able to play?

Maybe this sort of thing works with the handheld market, where you're not spending $300-400 on a machine, but this is really not good for the consumer.

I personally hate this idea. I hope it doesn't take off, truly, because if it does, we're going to be looking at this mid-generational "upgrade" again. The point of the console is that you don't have to upgrade it. It's supposed to last you for years. Otherwise, just go to PC gaming, where you can upgrade your rig yearly.
 

Dio

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Hopefully they won't be big upgrades with games made exclusively for the upgraded consoles.

It'll probably be not that noticeable a difference in output. Perhaps sleeker and smaller designed consoles. They can up the advertising and promote the new features.

Personally I think Nintendo has ****ed themselves and this is not just me hating them because of the Wii U. Nintendo left the mainstream gaming market to pander to their own fans and I think the market has lost trust in them.

If Mario and Smash bros has such a pulling power why hasn't the Wii U sold more. This NX if it competes in terms of power will still have the same problem. Why NX over PS4? Nintendo's for babies remember. You might not think so but you're probably a fan. Why would the majority who have that view on Nintendo go then for a Nintendo console over the more respectable choice?

Nintendo needs to rebrand itself with the NX if it is to survive in the console war it is a part of wether it thinks it is or not. It needs to distance itself from the Wii brand entirely. Even then who knows if it will be able to win back support.
 
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There are two issues here.
This assumes you stick to the dogma of console generations based on pre-set lengths of time. I do not adhere to this dogma. Sure console generation are a thing, but today they are so meaningless. The NX is the next gen Nintendo console. However the PS4.5 and XB1.5 are just a mid gen speed and resolution bump (like the N3DS was). Each company releases it's next gen console whenever it wants to these days. There is no more sticking to a preset generation cycle.

Also if you think the NX will by under powered then you are missing the whole point of what the NX will be. The NX is about innovation first, andjust enough in the power vs affordability equation to make it easy to port 3rd party games over ot the NX. The Wii and WiiU were exactly likw that, they put innovation first and raw console power second. Both consoles did put out some amazing games.

There are two issues here.
To directly answer your two questions.

1. No. The PS4.5 and XB1.5 are just upgrades. The NX is based on innovation. You are not comparing apples to apples here. One could also say
"Are the PS and XB introuble because they are not innovating it's hardware, only releasing more powerful updates of the same thing?"
As you see the question of "who is doomed?" has different answers depending on how you ask the question. The reality is none of the 3 are doomed. They are just taking different paths with their next console releases.

2. This I can agree with. The N3DS, PS4.5 and XB1.5 are just upgrades and suffer from all of the issues you have mentioned. All good and valid points there. The NX on the other hand is not an upgrade of the WiiU at all. Nothing mid cycle about the NX at all. The NX is Nintendo's next gen console. Next gen being next Nintendo generation of cause. Not overall generation because as we know now there is less incentive to stick to specific time based generations. Makes more sense to get new hardware out when it's ready and at the right time (with enough of the right games for launch).

Nintendo needs to rebrand itself with the NX if it is to survive in the console war it is a part of wether it thinks it is or not. It needs to distance itself from the Wii brand entirely.
I am aware at times you really don't some of what Nintendo has done. That's fine. However the specific statement of yours I have quoted I actually agree with. Not because the Wii/WiiU is bad, they are not. But because a fresh and clean break is required. Even though I don't see it so much as a war in most ways (but that's off topic), I do think Nintendo needs to be all about the NX. The Wii and WiiU taught Nintendo a lot. Now it's time to put everything Nintendo learnt into practice and move on to the NX and the future.
 

Lozjam

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NX is will likely get all the third party games that PS4 XBO will get.
Nintendo's (hopefully) amazing first party lineup will continue the rest.
Hopefully they won't be big upgrades with games made exclusively for the upgraded consoles.

It'll probably be not that noticeable a difference in output. Perhaps sleeker and smaller designed consoles. They can up the advertising and promote the new features.

Personally I think Nintendo has ****ed themselves and this is not just me hating them because of the Wii U. Nintendo left the mainstream gaming market to pander to their own fans and I think the market has lost trust in them.

If Mario and Smash bros has such a pulling power why hasn't the Wii U sold more. This NX if it competes in terms of power will still have the same problem. Why NX over PS4? Nintendo's for babies remember. You might not think so but you're probably a fan. Why would the majority who have that view on Nintendo go then for a Nintendo console over the more respectable choice.
Because of the 3DS.
You can get Mario 3D Land on 3DS, and it's a very similar experience.
You can get the exact same Smash game on 3DS

People will get the NX for games like Zelda U, as long as it's good. PS4 and XBO have very little exclusives nowadays. Nintendo is the only one who still has got the good exclusives.


3DS was completely underpowered, yet it sold extremely well. There's a very good reason for that.
1. It's pretty cheap
2. It has amazing Nintendo games.

The Wii U did not have first party support up to par with the 3DS. So it failed. It's easy as that.

I would also like to say that XBO is sort of a failure as well. It has only sold 18 million units compared to the Wii U's 13 million. That's not a big difference at all.

So why did this console fail as well? It has the power, and third party games. Why didn't it do well?
 

Dio

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NX is will likely get all the third party games that PS4 XBO will get.
Nintendo's (hopefully) amazing first party lineup will continue the rest.

Because of the 3DS.
You can get Mario 3D Land on 3DS, and it's a very similar experience.
You can get the exact same Smash game on 3DS

People will get the NX for games like Zelda U, as long as it's good. PS4 and XBO have very little exclusives nowadays. Nintendo is the only one who still has got the good exclusives.


3DS was completely underpowered, yet it sold extremely well. There's a very good reason for that.
1. It's pretty cheap
2. It has amazing Nintendo games.

The Wii U did not have first party support up to par with the 3DS. So it failed. It's easy as that.

I would also like to say that XBO is sort of a failure as well. It has only sold 18 million units compared to the Wii U's 13 million. That's not a big difference at all.

So why did this console fail as well? It has the power, and third party games. Why didn't it do well?
Xbox One is newer but still sold more. However the sales are definitely not what I would call good.

One of the big reasons is lack of backwards compatibility at the start. Even now many games have yet to be brought over. Why upgrade when the Xbox 360 has so many games? Personally I am disappointed with this gen. When we saw the tech demos we were thinking that is how games would look on the new consoles, but the reality is far from that. Dont get me wrong, this gen can do games that could not be done last gen. Witcher 3 would melt the older consoles, and the Wii U as well. With things like Shadow of Mordor the difference is definitely there, the power of the new consoles makes a noticeable improvement not only in look but in what was done with the gameplay, making an undeniably superior version. The one on the 360 and PS3 is downgraded significantly.

One reason to upgrade I would have thought was to play the hugely popular exclusive franchise of Halo. Or so that is how it should have been. Halo 5 was offputing from the get go. No longer was Master Chief the main character, now we had this new Spartan Locke. Halo 5 makes more sense when you read the books but for the halo gamers who don't read it. Halo 5 just doesn't make that much sense. There is a lot in it they wouldn't understand. When the product released the reviews were unfavourable in comparison to past entries so fans were hesitant to pick it up. It's sales are atrocious in comparison to past entries, so I am inclined to believe the millions of Halo fans decided to give the console a miss having already got the others on the 360.

Microsoft other very popular exclusive is Gears of war. Well it's not out yet so the Gears fans probably still play their 360s.

I don't know about PS4 exclusives but I imagine it mainly sells for it's 3rd party games. And when there is a stronger hardware console and a slightly weaker console. People will go for the technically better one.
 
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Ventus

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It's no secret that the PS4 and X1 are running on vastly outdated hardware (both GPUs are the equivalent to like a ****en r5 240, or an r7 260x or some ****). The Wii U is archaic in comparison. The mid generational leaps are absolutely necessary to maintain the buzzwords TEN EIGHTY PEE SIXTY EFF PEE ESS, the current hardware simply cannot keep up. TPHD - a simple game really - dibs freequently to 20/22 FPS. FREQUENTLY. Bloodborne - this gen's absolute best game - dips to ****en 15 FPS and shiet. It is not good at all. I'm not a frame rate whore, but the taglines and the commercials for all the consoles just won't work with the current hardware. The PS4K and the Xbox Super Powered or whatever the hell are necessary.

As for the NX, it's necessary but not for LE GRAPHIX LE FPS. It's necessary because the Wii U is deadweight. I know you guys on this sight love your Splatoon and your MK8, but face it...there's nothing on the Wii U bar first party games, and the big title everyone wanted -- Zelda U -- is now Zelda UX. They have to make a new console, a strong console ON THE TIER OF PS4K AND XBOX WHATEVER, if they want to live. Otherwise you may seoon see hello to Software Only Nintendo.
 
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Otherwise you may seoon see hello to Software Only Nintendo.
People said the same thing about Apple in 1996. But look at Apple now. Apple tried to outsource it's software to possible go software only and the move almost killed Apple.
Nintendo is the same. Nintendo will not ever be a multibillion dollar (or yen) company in the way Apple is, but Nintendo is here for the long term in the hardware business. Nintendo know it needs to remain being a mostly vertically integrated company where it can develop ideas for this console and 1st party games together and with the same frame of mind.

It is this vertical integration of hardware and software is why Nintendo is as great as it is today. MS and Sony have totally different business models for their consoles and do not rely on the same vertically integration model like Nintendo do. Neither is wrong, it's just how each of the 3 do business. Nintendo with hardware and software working together is not Nintendo at all. Breaking this will destroy Nintendo. That is why I don't think Nintendo will (any time soon) ever stray from making new hardware.
 

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I blame Nintendo for this situation. I think it's entirely their fault that this is happening. They jumped the gun and launched this generation way, WAY earlier than it was supposed to. And of course, the other two had to follow suit. Whether or not Nintendo cared. So naturally everyone had to cut corners to make it out of the door in time and the resulting consoles just couldn't cut it and weren't holding up to standards game makers wanted. Probably the biggest reason Microsoft and Sony are doing it is only because Nintendo is doing it, again. Which I think traces all the way back to the Wii. Which I consider a definite pyrrhic victory. Fanboys champion it as one of gaming's biggest successes of all time. But I think it's what's sent us into this terrible situation. It very permanently got third parties uninterested in Nintendo. So Nintendo launches its next gen console prematurely in a desperate bid to get their attention again and fails. And now it's trying the exact same thing all over again and expecting different results. And regardless of how much Nintendo might care, the other two always respond to what they do. If Nintendo releases a new console, so do they. Regardless of whether or not it's a good idea. The last gen was so long for a very good reason, the financial crash of 2008. It still is burning everyone. By not waiting, they couldn't affordably include better hardware and that was giving developers problems because they couldn't meet people's (in my opinion unrealistic) expectations of "next gen".
 
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They jumped the gun and launched this generation way, WAY earlier than it was supposed to.
(have to bold it as can't have 3x quites from the same person in one post)

Nothing with releasing a console when you want to. It's up to the competition to deal with it. Nintendo released the WiiU when it wanted to. That is exactly when it is supposed to. Not because you feel threatened by your competition.

If Nintendo releases a new console, so do they.
That's Sony and MS's fault not Nintendo's. Nintendo release consoles when they want to. MS and Sony should be doing the same. Releasing consoles when they are ready, not just because Nintendo has recently done so.

It very permanently got third parties uninterested in Nintendo.
Nintendo turned away many 3rd parties with the N64 and how Nintendo ran things. Nintendo got the 3rd parties back onside for the Wii. It was the WiiU launch that burned the 3rd parties again. They were all on board for the WiiU launch, but when the WiiU launch went sour, the 3rd parties left. Rumour however has it that a few of them (at least) want back in with the NX.

****************
I will be very happy when the term "console generation" in the way it is used now dies as a used phrase. That phrase as we use it today is harming the industry. It's why Sony and MS do what they do. Without that phrase, everyone will release things at the right time, when they want to. This will result in better consoles with better games at launch.
 
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It has nothing to do with when the consoles were released, just the fact that games are extremely ambitious and we have the tech and knowledge to basically make nearly any idea a reality now. All the consoles could have hit the 1080p 60 fps targets if they sold at a loss to get better hardware out, but that's a business practice that most companies are swaying away from these days.

It's fine, most people are perfectly fine with 30 fps @ 1080, 900p, etc, if they get the latest and greatest tech. 60 fps for games that it's more important for etc, that's fine with most people.
 

Viral Maze

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At first you'll be able to play the games just fine, but eventually, they're going to make a game that won't run on the PS4 Oldo (PS4 Classic, as they'll call it).
I read somewhere that apparently Sony was saying to devs that there should be no differences between the games when it comes to players having a PS4 vs a PS4K. Every game will work on both, just the 4K version will output more pixels and frames. No exclusive content, no exclusive DLC, no new environment. Its like adding a new gfx card/new processor to a PC. Its still a PC. You get no exclusive DLC or anything from purchasing a GTX980ti vs a 760.

Its a rumour, along with everything else, but its something I believe that Sony would do, and MS would too.


I would also like to say that XBO is sort of a failure as well. It has only sold 18 million units compared to the Wii U's 13 million. That's not a big difference at all.

So why did this console fail as well? It has the power, and third party games. Why didn't it do well?
The XBO didn't fail. Its making money. Its outpacing the X360 if you compare sales at certain points in its lifetime. 20 million in just over 2 years ain't bad. Its just that the PS4 is a beast. That's it. They have a huge fan base in Japan and Asia, as well as Europe.
I wouldn't even consider the WiiU a failure, but the fact that Nintendo is pulling the plug constitutes the console as a failure to me.

It has nothing to do with when the consoles were released, just the fact that games are extremely ambitious and we have the tech and knowledge to basically make nearly any idea a reality now. All the consoles could have hit the 1080p 60 fps targets if they sold at a loss to get better hardware out, but that's a business practice that most companies are swaying away from these days.

It's fine, most people are perfectly fine with 30 fps @ 1080, 900p, etc, if they get the latest and greatest tech. 60 fps for games that it's more important for etc, that's fine with most people.


Exactly this.
Games and developers are being extremely ambitious. The consumer and media is partly to blame too. Devs could push a game at 900p/60fps or dynamic resolution at 60fps, but they'll get roasted by consumers and the video game media. Even if its the minority who care about this, they are very vocal. Developers are pushing for bigger worlds, more pixels and more frames (which can be achieved easier on the PC than on consoles) so now the console makers are playing catch-up. They know people will buy these add-on consoles (I believe they will be add-on consoles, rather than full-fledged consoles on their own, but I'm ready to be wrong).
That, and the fact that VR is being pushed as the next big thing, MS and Sony rather not sit VR out this gen. Sony has their PSVR which will definitely play well with their Neo, and MS has their partnership with the Oculus Rift and with the rumoured Scorpio being more powerful than the Neo, and a few devs developing XBO VR games (probably untilizing the Scorpio and the Rift), these companies probably saw making these mid-gen leaps as 'good business'.

Regardless, be sensible. Vote with your wallet. Personally, 1080p 60fps doesn't excite me the way a bj might. I'll wait and see before I decide to spend on anything.
 

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All the consoles could have hit the 1080p 60 fps targets if they sold at a loss to get better hardware out, but that's a business practice that most companies are swaying away from these days.
I feel I have to point out that this was never the case. The whole "sold at a loss" thing was a pure fiction that the regressive parts of the PC gaming community made up to deride consoles. The console makers themselves never explicitly said they were selling at a loss. What actually happened was that these people calculated the cost to build an equivalent desktop PC tower that was built out of the same or equal parts as a console. At end-consumer retail prices. Completely ignoring the fact that this is not what console makers pay for their parts. They don't just go to their local Best Buy and pick up the same box you do. They buy their parts in bulk, even having them made specifically for them, directly from the manufacturer in huge bulk numbers with a far reduced cost due to the bulk amounts and not being inflated by going through various middlemen to end up at retail. The actual cost is always a secret, because giving it away could compromise special deals with suppliers, but it absolutely is not what you pay for the same parts yourself as a regular consumer. No console has ever sold at a loss, it'd be stupid to do it. And frankly anyone who thinks it happened, and isn't trying to deliberately mislead people, is just being stupidly naive.
 
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I feel I have to point out that this was never the case. The whole "sold at a loss" thing was a pure fiction that the regressive parts of the PC gaming community made up to deride consoles. The console makers themselves never explicitly said they were selling at a loss. What actually happened was that these people calculated the cost to build an equivalent desktop PC tower that was built out of the same or equal parts as a console. At end-consumer retail prices. Completely ignoring the fact that this is not what console makers pay for their parts. They don't just go to their local Best Buy and pick up the same box you do. They buy their parts in bulk, even having them made specifically for them, directly from the manufacturer in huge bulk numbers with a far reduced cost due to the bulk amounts and not being inflated by going through various middlemen to end up at retail. The actual cost is always a secret, because giving it away could compromise special deals with suppliers, but it absolutely is not what you pay for the same parts yourself as a regular consumer. No console has ever sold at a loss, it'd be stupid to do it. And frankly anyone who thinks it happened, and isn't trying to deliberately mislead people, is just being stupidly naive.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loss_leader
http://www.pcworld.com/article/127906/article.html
http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2006/11/8239/
http://www.cnet.com/news/will-xbox-drain-microsoft/
http://www.geek.com/games/sony-will...ily-recoup-it-in-games-ps-plus-sales-1571335/
http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkai...e-a-loss-on-playstation-4-sales/#93125f87b550
http://www.polygon.com/2013/8/8/4601116/wii-u-is-still-being-sold-at-a-loss

Also it's not just the very own companies saying it's selling at a loss, its professional market research teams as well.

Matt the amount of mental gymnastics you do to defend consoles and put on some PC conspiracy hat is insane. I usually just ignore it because it's rather entertaining that you are basically the thing you hate.
 

CrimsonCavalier

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This assumes you stick to the dogma of console generations based on pre-set lengths of time. I do not adhere to this dogma. Sure console generation are a thing, but today they are so meaningless. The NX is the next gen Nintendo console. However the PS4.5 and XB1.5 are just a mid gen speed and resolution bump (like the N3DS was). Each company releases it's next gen console whenever it wants to these days. There is no more sticking to a preset generation cycle.
It has nothing to do with dogma, and everything to do with reality. I don't say when console generations start and stop. The console manufacturers do, and they say that console generations last about 5-7 years currently with the technology we have.

The reason for this is consoles cost money. Not an insignificant amount of money. So when you invest heavily on certain technology, it behooves the manufacturer to keep that product going for as long as it remains viable. The reason the Xbox 360 and PS3 are still getting games is because the technology is still viable and because they sold a very healthy amount of consoles. Until the next generation of technology is affordable, the current generation of consoles will remain the current generation. When (and it will always happen) the next technological leap becomes affordable and viable, then do manufacturers move on.

It isn't a set amount of time, it just so happens that the amount of time is around 5-7 years.

Also, remember, we the consumer make an investment as well. Most people can't afford to drop $350 every two years. That's why console cycles last the amount of time that they do. Not because it's the WAY OF THE CONSOLE. It just happens to be a time frame that makes sense.

No one releases consoles whenever they want. They all release around the same time because that's when (a) the consumer is ready for something new (b) the new technology is viable and affordable. Just because you, the8thark, don't think that cycles exist doesn't mean you're not wrong. Sorry, but you are.

I read somewhere that apparently Sony was saying to devs that there should be no differences between the games when it comes to players having a PS4 vs a PS4K. Every game will work on both, just the 4K version will output more pixels and frames. No exclusive content, no exclusive DLC, no new environment. Its like adding a new gfx card/new processor to a PC. Its still a PC. You get no exclusive DLC or anything from purchasing a GTX980ti vs a 760.
They say that now, but if we know anything about how companies do business, eventually the games will need that extra power to run the game smoothly. Eventually, the games just won't come out for the Classic version. I know I may sound like some nut, but I'm telling you ... this isn't just some extra resolution business. This is a mid-generational leap. This is going to be something gamers are going to have to get in order to play the latest games.

I will be very happy when the term "console generation" in the way it is used now dies as a used phrase. That phrase as we use it today is harming the industry. It's why Sony and MS do what they do. Without that phrase, everyone will release things at the right time, when they want to. This will result in better consoles with better games at launch.
I'll be honest here: Nintendo is releasing the NX not because it's "the right time to move from the Wii U". Nintendo is releasing the NX because the Wii U did not perform how they expected it to perform. I don't think it's a failure, but it just isn't selling. Nintendo is moving on because they have to.

And Sony and MS are doing the exact right thing (business-wise) by upping the ante with their own new hardware. This isn't a generational leap, it's a mid-gen upgrade. And as far a "generation" is concerned, it will never go away. It's how the industry is built. I know you think Nintendo aren't competing with Sony and MS, and that they're doing their own thing, and that's fine, but the reality is that even if that were the case (and it isn't, they most definitely ARE competing, and if they weren't, they wouldn't be releasing the NX), Sony and MS are competing with Nintendo. Whatever the reason that generations move forward, they move forward at a certain rate.

Nintendo fell behind, and they're trying to catch up, and Sony and MS are staying a half-step ahead of them.

Hopefully they won't be big upgrades with games made exclusively for the upgraded consoles.

It'll probably be not that noticeable a difference in output. Perhaps sleeker and smaller designed consoles. They can up the advertising and promote the new features.
I want to believe it won't be a big deal, but I just feel that this is opening the Pandora's Box of mid-generational leaps. Consoles are trying harder and harder to be PCs, and that's a terrible thing for console gamers. Like I said, one of the reason we're console gamers and not PC gamers is because consoles offer you the longevity of stability. We know that when we get the machine, it will last us 5-7 years, without the need to upgrade our graphic cards, and that the games will be developed with our console in mind, and that means the games will be streamlined to run on the hardware. We're not going to get a game that we can't run with full settings, like some PC gamers have to. The game was built for the console.

With this mid-gen leap, the manufacturers are basically saying, we released consoles because. It wasn't the right time, but we reacted to a market competitor, and oops. Instead, this is what we should have released.

But what it also is saying is, "we're not afraid to make you buy a new piece of expensive hardware after only 2 years since you made your investment" and if people do buy it (and they will, because the games will not be playable on the old hardware), then this is going to be the way of the future. New hardware every two years. Screw that, to be frank. I'll go PC if that's the case.
 
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