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Official Suggestions Thread

Beauts

Rock and roll will never die
Joined
Jun 15, 2012
Location
London, United Kingdom
I didn't mean to start a mod vote and let me make it clear I'm not actually trying to be a mod but seeing as the actual mod's cba with doing their job someone has to do something right?

Anyway. I actually suggest that when people voice concerns about a) the way the forum is being moderated b) the way some people behave c) serious actual concerns about possible scenarios that could arise, ESPECIALLY involving children and other vulnerable members of the community, they shouldn't be the ones who end up getting told off. Different people have different concerns and I'm by no means saying that my hands are clean in this regard but just because someones opinion goes against the 'powers that be' doesn't mean they deserve to be like, completely disregarded.
 

Emma

Eye See You
Site Staff
Joined
Nov 28, 2008
Location
Vegas
I didn't mean to start a mod vote and let me make it clear I'm not actually trying to be a mod but seeing as the actual mod's cba with doing their job someone has to do something right?

Anyway. I actually suggest that when people voice concerns about a) the way the forum is being moderated b) the way some people behave c) serious actual concerns about possible scenarios that could arise, ESPECIALLY involving children and other vulnerable members of the community, they shouldn't be the ones who end up getting told off. Different people have different concerns and I'm by no means saying that my hands are clean in this regard but just because someones opinion goes against the 'powers that be' doesn't mean they deserve to be like, completely disregarded.
Not punishing people left and right doesn't mean the mods are not doing their jobs. Far from it. Punishment should be the absolute last resort. The worst chapters in ZD history have been caused by mods being too quick to punish, too eager to be excessively politically correct. Every single time mods got it in their head that they needed to do that, they started treating the community as prison full of disposable convicts with no humanity that needed to be controlled and contained, rather than actual human beings with feelings. They began to see people as the enemy. It happens every time that it's decided that we have to "reign things in". Having no one say naughty words, never say an uncomfortable opinion, or never criticize anyone won't create a safe, healthy environment for socialization. It would create an atmosphere of fear. People would be constantly afraid the next thing they say could get them brutalized. The most vulnerable people who are suffering the worst already, would be hurt the most by this atmosphere. This isn't an idea to protect people, it's an attempt to control them.

This never, ever has been a good idea and it ended in disaster every time it has been attempted. Both on ZD and everywhere else on the planet. We're not here to be everyone's parent, we're not a nanny, we're not a crutch for lazy parents to not do their job. We're here to be a community. That doesn't always mean everyone always agrees. And they shouldn't either be made to or made to shut up if they don't. We aren't babysitters that are a substitute for actual parenting. We do have the language filter. That takes care of that. As for sexual references, children are not going to understand them. Look at the typical Disney movie. They have innuendo in them all the time and the kids never get it, it's there for the parents and older audiences. The one with a problem with them, is the older people who feel offended by it. But that doesn't mean anything. Kids won't understand. You want to explain it to them and tell them why something should offend them? Go right ahead. That'll convince everyone it's "for the children."
 

Dio

~ ZD's Pug Dealer ~
Joined
Jul 6, 2011
Location
England
Gender
Gingerblackmexicanjew
In regards to the recent episode of drama in the shoutbox regarding a joke that some members (Yes you know who you are I'm not going to name you) deemed inappropriate for another member. It is down to personal responsibility whether you decide to use these forums and for the parents of any minors to allow their children on these forums and expose them to the content here.

We do not tolerate bullying at ZD or should not anyway and if a member feels they are being the target of bullying they can report the issue. However when a member has a joke made to them and they do not feel it was targeting them or threatening them, it is not for other members to tell this member they should be offended by it or that the joke should not have been made.
 

Vanessa28

Angel of Darkness
Staff member
ZD Legend
Administrator
Joined
Jan 31, 2010
Location
Yahtzee, Supernatural
Gender
Angel of Darkness
People always complain about the mods. They never do enough, they are too strict, too laid back, too arrogant, too harsh. There is always something to complain about and if you search long enough, you're going to find something. And yes the mods have been horrible in the past. That's no secret. But mods are also human beings. They're no super humans or above any law.
 
In regards to the recent episode of drama in the shoutbox regarding a joke that some members (Yes you know who you are I'm not going to name you) deemed inappropriate for another member. It is down to personal responsibility whether you decide to use these forums and for the parents of any minors to allow their children on these forums and expose them to the content here.

We do not tolerate bullying at ZD or should not anyway and if a member feels they are being the target of bullying they can report the issue. However when a member has a joke made to them and they do not feel it was targeting them or threatening them, it is not for other members to tell this member they should be offended by it or that the joke should not have been made.
I think said member was more offended over the fact that such things can happen without staff intervention than about the joke itself.
 

Dan

Joined
Sep 19, 2011
Gender
V2 White Male
People always complain about the mods. They never do enough, they are too strict, too laid back, too arrogant, too harsh. There is always something to complain about and if you search long enough, you're going to find something. And yes the mods have been horrible in the past. That's no secret. But mods are also human beings. They're no super humans or above any law.
You'll always be a super human to me. ;)

I wouldn't worry about this "instant" it's become way overblown and a little silly if you ask me. We're all a fantastic community when we stick together.
 
Not punishing people left and right doesn't mean the mods are not doing their jobs. Far from it. Punishment should be the absolute last resort. The worst chapters in ZD history have been caused by mods being too quick to punish, too eager to be excessively politically correct. Every single time mods got it in their head that they needed to do that, they started treating the community as prison full of disposable convicts with no humanity that needed to be controlled and contained, rather than actual human beings with feelings. They began to see people as the enemy. It happens every time that it's decided that we have to "reign things in". Having no one say naughty words, never say an uncomfortable opinion, or never criticize anyone won't create a safe, healthy environment for socialization. It would create an atmosphere of fear. People would be constantly afraid the next thing they say could get them brutalized. The most vulnerable people who are suffering the worst already, would be hurt the most by this atmosphere. This isn't an idea to protect people, it's an attempt to control them.

This never, ever has been a good idea and it ended in disaster every time it has been attempted. Both on ZD and everywhere else on the planet. We're not here to be everyone's parent, we're not a nanny, we're not a crutch for lazy parents to not do their job. We're here to be a community. That doesn't always mean everyone always agrees. And they shouldn't either be made to or made to shut up if they don't. We aren't babysitters that are a substitute for actual parenting. We do have the language filter. That takes care of that. As for sexual references, children are not going to understand them. Look at the typical Disney movie. They have innuendo in them all the time and the kids never get it, it's there for the parents and older audiences. The one with a problem with them, is the older people who feel offended by it. But that doesn't mean anything. Kids won't understand. You want to explain it to them and tell them why something should offend them? Go right ahead. That'll convince everyone it's "for the children."
What if the kids to understand said sexual references or are confused and ask about it?
 

Emma

Eye See You
Site Staff
Joined
Nov 28, 2008
Location
Vegas
We do not tolerate bullying at ZD or should not anyway and if a member feels they are being the target of bullying they can report the issue. However when a member has a joke made to them and they do not feel it was targeting them or threatening them, it is not for other members to tell this member they should be offended by it or that the joke should not have been made.
I want to follow this line of thought.

Proxy offense is not okay. If you think someone someone said to someone else is offensive, you've got no right to tell that person they should be offended. Everyone needs to understand that. We like to believe negative things about other people. If you go around telling someone that they were insulted, when it actually wasn't the case, you can cause problems where there was none. Nor does anyone have the right to demand punishment for someone "offending" another person. That's up to that person, not you.

Actual bullying is a different issue, but then again, bullying of a form is fully endorsed by this kind of controlling mentality we're discussing.

You mean this exact thing which absolutely nobody, at any point in that discussion, actually said or did? Right.
You went on for quite a while about how people who have no ability to be offended by these things should be offended by it. So... there's that.

People always complain about the mods. They never do enough, they are too strict, too laid back, too arrogant, too harsh. There is always something to complain about and if you search long enough, you're going to find something. And yes the mods have been horrible in the past. That's no secret. But mods are also human beings. They're no super humans or above any law.
One thing that people need to understand that is that power corrupts. If we are so casual with this kind of censorship, otherwise good people will do terrible things, and feel like they're helping when they do it. We have seen this in the past on ZD with former friends becoming bitter enemies over how the power was used.

We shouldn't dance around what this is, it is absolute control over people. It is an attempt to control what people say, think, and feel. And don't let anyone tell you different. When you attack people for what they say, saying it's offensive, when you attack criticism of ideas and ridicule that criticism.... you are trying to dictate which thoughts are allowed.

This kind of power is intoxicating. Everyone is tempted by it. If they have it, they'll want to use it to silence ideas they don't like. Anyone that says they won't, is lying. It is very alluring. People who have been in positions like this for a long time have to constantly struggle with this. Eventually you can learn to make it just a reflex, but that takes a lot of work, and a lot of discipline and it doesn't always happen.


If you want something a bit more fleshed out about this mentality there's this, which I think is very well spoken, though he does use some language, so fair warning.
We need to recognize that this... outrage culture, as he calls it, just is harmful. It is counterproductive and it doesn't fix anything.Encouraging it only hurts a lot of people and holds back our cultural development. It doesn't help kids, it tortures them.

So much about this is about conforming with the morally supreme regressive left. That a more, ironically, PC term for "PC culture". It's an attempt to conform people into one line of thought, to self congratulate themselves on their own moral superiority, to scorn and disown people who don't tow the line and that don't agree with the PC dogma. Hitch has another quote for this.


We can't afford to get into this line of thought. The principle pillar of free society is freedom of speech. If this is threatened, it inevitably devolves into a tyranny controlled through fear.
Picard says it well:
Just because you don't like what someone has to say doesn't mean they're undeserving of basic respect and human dignity. And it doesn't mean they forfeited their right to free expression or freedom of thought. This applies everywhere you go that you try to form some community or group that operates together. In any such case, you need free expression and it needs to be protected no matter what. Or else you won't have leaders and protectors, you'll have brutal wardens and slavemasters, waiting with the whip ready for the first toe stepped out of line. This is not something we should strive for.
 

Stitch

Lost
Joined
Aug 13, 2013
People always complain about the mods. They never do enough, they are too strict, too laid back, too arrogant, too harsh. There is always something to complain about and if you search long enough, you're going to find something. And yes the mods have been horrible in the past. That's no secret. But mods are also human beings. They're no super humans or above any law.
I don't think it's wrong to be critical of the mods. Let's just admit it, the mods we have right now aren't incredibly active. I'm not saying the mods should be handing out infractions left and right, but I think maybe getting somebody whose activity is a little more stable and is willing to get more involved with the community isn't a bad idea. I think it would help keep things like what happened today from getting out of control if people felt like there was somebody there who was in a mod position who could talk through why certain actions are or aren't taken depending on the circumstances (some things need to be kept private). A lot of good has happened on the forum lately, but I don't think that means that there still isn't room for improvement. I think we should consider adding a mod who will be more active, I don't see how it could harm anything and it could do a lot of good and it could give people peace of mind knowing that there is somebody there who has the powers that a mod has in case those powers need to be used.
 

Vanessa28

Angel of Darkness
Staff member
ZD Legend
Administrator
Joined
Jan 31, 2010
Location
Yahtzee, Supernatural
Gender
Angel of Darkness
I don't think it's wrong to be critical of the mods. Let's just admit it, the mods we have right now aren't incredibly active. I'm not saying the mods should be handing out infractions left and right, but I think maybe getting somebody whose activity is a little more stable and is willing to get more involved with the community isn't a bad idea. I think it would help keep things like what happened today from getting out of control if people felt like there was somebody there who was in a mod position who could talk through why certain actions are or aren't taken depending on the circumstances (some things need to be kept private). A lot of good has happened on the forum lately, but I don't think that means that there still isn't room for improvement. I think we should consider adding a mod who will be more active, I don't see how it could harm anything and it could do a lot of good and it could give people peace of mind knowing that there is somebody there who has the powers that a mod has in case those powers need to be used.
Where did I say people can't be critical? The thing I said is that there is ALWAYS something to complain about even if you search long enough. People should be critical. If a mod is doing the wrong things, they deserve to be called out for that. Like I said no mod is above any law. We have seen this often in the past and we will see it in the future because mods are always needed unless you get rid off the forums. And about the current situation; yes we're understaffed so another mod won't be a bad thing and if the merge is going to happen, we definitely need more mods for sure.
 

Emma

Eye See You
Site Staff
Joined
Nov 28, 2008
Location
Vegas
Where did I say people can't be critical? The thing I said is that there is ALWAYS something to complain about even if you search long enough. People should be critical. If a mod is doing the wrong things, they deserve to be called out for that. Like I said no mod is above any law. We have seen this often in the past and we will see it in the future because mods are always needed unless you get rid off the forums. And about the current situation; yes we're understaffed so another mod won't be a bad thing and if the merge is going to happen, we definitely need more mods for sure.
Going on what I said, the criticism of mods is absolutely essential. It is very, VERY easy to be tempted by the power. Being constantly open to criticism is an effective buffer against that temptation. Accountability means that the idea of abusing the powers is less tempting because it won't be so easily gotten away with. Even the nicest of people need to be open to criticism. Even wrong criticism can bring up a problem. People wanting extra control over what people say, is a problem. It has to be dealt with through reason. It's okay to be upset about criticism. Nothing wrong with that. But it's very wrong to try to tell people they can't criticize. Which is what has happened on ZD before.
 
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